Lock-on Missiles (AA & Jets)

[Celestial1]

Originally Posted by Zoddom

but it would be more unrealsitic to have the ability to turn radars off in aavs, because irl AAs are pretty useless without it and in addition to prevent enemy aircrafts from entering your area is a main idea of AA (besides the air surveillance, which is actually the main idea). If you would just turn on ur radar to "keep them away" you would risk a sead-strike (..irl, thats why i would say let the radars turned on)

You're contradicting yourself, if I understand you correctly. You say the AA's are useless without radar... but if you would turn the radar on you would risk a SEAD strike.

However, wouldn't being able to turn the Radar both ON and OFF solve that issue? You would leave the radar off when you're traveling, and when you are ready to deny airspace, you would turn the radar on to engage enemy jets and attempt to scare them out of the airspace before they are able to do any damage to your teammates?



I'm not sure how SEAD strikes would really work out ingame, but it'd be interesting, for sure. According to Wikipedia, the USAF's F16/F-18s can outfitted with the AGM-88 HARM (or the AGM-154 JSW, apparently?) for these purposes... the RAF's Tornado GR4 uses the ALARM missile. Both are anti-radiation missiles, which would mean they target enemy radars.

I'm not sure what RU/MEC/PLA would use as equivalents, but I would suppose just for the sake of fairness they would get guided anti-radiation missiles on certain jets, too. The F-16 in game is used as a 'fighter' jet, whereas the GR4 is used as a 'bomber' jet... while it may not be a big issue for them, it seems like it might be strange that a fighter jet on one map has this role while it is taken away and given to the bombers on others... especially since most of the jets are relatively identical in their own class (Fighters have guns, short and long range AA missiles, and guided bombs... Bombers have guns, Air-To-Ground missiles, guided bombs, dumbfire rockets, and short-range Air-To-Air missiles... Two seaters have guns, A2G missiles, guided bombs, and short-range A2A missiles...)

Maybe the SEAD missiles could somehow be able to be used from longer range, like how bombs could be dropped from out of view of the target and guide themselves with a laser-designator on the ground... Maybe they could be made to automatically lock onto AAVs on the ground as long as the fighter is within a certain range (like being 800m away from the target, so that the missile has time to guide itself)... it would require a spotter to find the AAV, but the fighter could do some of the work from there?

If the radar could be turned on or off for targeting, then the jet would be helpless if it came in and the radar was turned off, because the AA could then turn ON it's radars as the jet passes the point where he could have fired a SEAD strike, and then would have to flare quite a bit to make sure that the AA missile doesn't lock or hit.

Maybe someone could clear up how both Radar and SEAD should work in this scenario? It's really hard to come up with a good solution when I don't really understand how they both work well.

[Engineer]

Originally Posted by Celestial1

So, just for the sake of implementing in game, if the HUD only showed targets that were locked ON, and not the ones that could be 'locked', this would simulate the fact that the AA doesn't just scan targets for you, you actually have to be able to see them to get a reliable lock.

It might be enough, if you could tighten the area where AA currently searches for targets.

Here is a quick mspaint pick of this HUD:


So basically you just held the target you wanted to lock on the topmost catching ring. After few seconds the best intercept course had been calculated, and one of the rings below ignited. Then you moved the target inside that ring and fired. It was really simple.

Originally Posted by Celestial1

Do you remember how 'fast' locking happened? Was it instantaneous once the seeker was on and the reticle was near the aircraft? Did it take a short moment to actually establish a lock before you could fire?

It all depends on the heat signatures and weather conditions. But it was only few seconds you needed to follow the target, I'd say you were able to aquire a lock and launch in less than 5 seconds.

Originally Posted by Celestial1

Can MANPADS/AA/AAVs in real life will lock onto friendly aircraft? I would guess that they do, but again I don't know.

IR missiles can lock into anything that produces heat, radar missiles into anything that shows up in radar. It doesn't even need to be an aircraft. If target is sending good IFF signal it can be marked as friendly, but you can still shoot it down if you are having a bad day.

[DankE_SPB]

Can MANPADS/AA/AAVs in real life will lock onto friendly aircraft? I would guess that they do, but again I don't know.

Igla's are equipped with friend-or-foe requester 1L14 which blocks launch on friendlies

[Eddie Baker]

Originally Posted by mat552

I smell a commander deployable asset perhaps?

As I said, I don't know if the C-RAM LPWS has the ability to be manually tracked. Most details of it are classified. Otherwise, it sounds like it would function like a "man-in-the-loop" automated sentry gun. It is also huge; the system is mounted on a semi trailer. I don't even know if the weapon crew is even on the same trailer, or is controlling it from several yards away in another one (which would be my guess, since that's the way things seem to be headed).

Originally Posted by Engineer

MANPAD's do have 'HUD's, seen and used one with my naked eyes. But they don't have some magical seeker which wanders around the scenery searching for heat signature.

Depends on what MANPADS you're using. The Mistral does have a HUD in its optical sight, but the Stinger does not have an optical sight organic to its launch unit, only a peep-sight.

Originally Posted by Zoddom

but it would be more unrealsitic to have the ability to turn radars off in aavs, because irl AAs are pretty useless without it and in addition to prevent enemy aircrafts from entering your area is a main idea of AA (besides the air surveillance, which is actually the main idea). If you would just turn on ur radar to "keep them away" you would risk a sead-strike (..irl, thats why i would say let the radars turned on)

The ZSU-23-4 has the ability to turn its radar off and optically track targets; this was a tactic used in the Vietnam War. SPAAGs (AAVs are amphibious assault vehicles) generally have a high rate of traverse and elevation; about 60 degrees per second or even greater. A skilled gun crew can use this to great effect against both air and ground targets. I would imagine this ability was also installed on the ZSU's successor, the Tunguska. Its missiles are SACLOS radio command guided. The sight is normally tracked and directed by radar, but since it is SACLOS, I would assume it could be manually tracked as well.

Originally Posted by Sgt.Heine

i say let the piolt know they are being targeted so they have time to react.

There is no system that can indicate when an IR "heat-seeking" missile is targeting you, only when the missile is launched and from what general direction. Only laser-guided (like the Starstreak HVM) or radar-guided missiles can be detected prior to launch.

[Zoddom]

Originally Posted by Celestial1

You're contradicting yourself, if I understand you correctly. You say the AA's are useless without radar... but if you would turn the radar on you would risk a SEAD strike.

However, wouldn't being able to turn the Radar both ON and OFF solve that issue? You would leave the radar off when you're traveling, and when you are ready to deny airspace, you would turn the radar on to engage enemy jets and attempt to scare them out of the airspace before they are able to do any damage to your teammates?

(the russians use Kh-25P or Kh-38 for example)
i said if you could turn the radar off, it wouldnt make much sense to turn it on just to keep the air clean, but on the other side, if you turned it off for travelling you couldnt counter enemy air units which dont attack you in a sead mission...
The whole thing is much complexer than just "give them on/off button", you would have to include the ability of making a complete air defense for the team (Thermal AA like Avenger or Strela, Radar-AA guns like the ZSU Shilka or a Vulcan and radar-missile systems like Tor or Tunguska [and for real realism long range Air defense like S-300 or patriot)
furthermore i think its really unrealistic that a jet gets into an area where aa is, which is turned off, without knowledge about it!? If an army's air force would know that in an area were turned off radar-aa-systems then it would send some A-10s for example and a squadron sead-support if the AA wouldthen turn radar on... then the AA would be really helpless

@Eddie: okay didnt know that you can manually "guide" a shilka or even grissoms. But how does that work? How do you control a missile into a jet without radar and thermal-sight???????? that sounds really unbelievable.

[Eddie Baker]

Originally Posted by Zoddom

@Eddie: okay didnt know that you can manually "guide" a shilka or even grissoms. But how does that work? How do you control a missile into a jet without radar and thermal-sight???????? that sounds really unbelievable.

Keep it in the crosshairs of the sight, just like any other SACLOS missile. The Starstreak can do the same thing, only it's laser-guided rather than radio command guided.

[DankE_SPB]

Originally Posted by Zoddom

@Eddie: okay didnt know that you can manually "guide" a shilka or even grissoms. But how does that work? How do you control a missile into a jet without radar and thermal-sight???????? that sounds really unbelievable.

if your thermal sight is on, jet wont detect it, its passive, same goes for IR missile
shilkas and tunguskas has separate TV or IR channel for manual control(some other systems have it too) one of the passive methods is command guidance when launch platform tracks both target and missile and gives commands to missile, in passive variant(without using radar for detecting missile and target) missile carries tracer in its back, this was used in old ATGM, this kind of targeting called MCLOS iirc used on Tunguska for example

If an army's air force would know that in an area were turned off radar-aa-systems then it would send some A-10s for example and a squadron sead-support if the AA wouldthen turn radar on... then the AA would be really helpless

not really, every system has its reaction time, but for mobile complexes its pretty low, they also do not operate on their own, in example one machine has it radars turned on and share targets with 4 machines standing on some distance with their radars turned off