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Old 04-20-2010, 04:04 PM   #1
Herbiie

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Default AK47 & NATO ammo debate

Quote:
Originally Posted by [R-DEV]Dunehunter View Post
Herbiie, ease up on the attitude. He is well within his right to ask for sources, we get plenty of people talking out off their *** here.
It's just so annoying that if a coder or whatever says something then everyone accepts what they say as gospel, even though quite a few times they a re wrong. I know quite a bit about Military stuff (Not everything, and I'll be the first to admit that lots of people on these forums know more, and if they can correct me with some simple reasoning then fine whatever) and I'm usually right when I say stuff.

Why should I go all over the TinTerNet looking for an obscure fact? The only reason I know it is because of a question I asked in a lecture on one of the hundreds of military-type stuff I've done (If I can remember correctly this was a lecture with the Regulars when I was in the Cadets, can't remember how it came up but it did) - it's not a common question with a common answer, so I highly doubt there is anything on the internet about it.

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Old 04-20-2010, 04:28 PM   #2
Trexian
Default Re: U.S. leaves Afghanistan’s ‘Valley of Death’

If the question is whether certain caliber firearms can fire certain other calibers, there are some resources for that.

For instance, I know for a fact that the US-import Makarov (9x18 cal.) can fire the US .380 ammunition (it is essentially 9x17). There is information on that here:
Makarov.com - FAQL (down toward the bottom)

In fact, the pistol CAN fire 9mm parabellum (9x19) rounds, but it would not be smart to do so. The whole gun might explode, or something like that.

The point is, that some rounds may "fit" into rifles designed for another caliber, but that does not mean they will fire, or if they do fire, that the whole gun won't explode.

To use your examples, no 7.62 round will ever fit in a 5.45 chamber. Similarly, a 5.56 round MIGHT fit into a 7.62 chamber (I've never tried, although now you have me curious), I don't think there's any way that the firing pin would hit the primer. You'd basically have a very heavy rattle.

Now, the closest calibers you cited were the 7.62x54 and 7.62x51 (.308 US). The widths of the bullets are the same, but the lengths and shapes of the cartridges are different. Here's a wiki on that "family" of calibers:
7.62 mm caliber - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here's a page that has a lineup of them:
Title goes here

You'll notice that the shape of the cartridge is different - not just in the length (3mm different), but also the position of the "shoulder" area. Most notable, perhaps, is the bottom - they are significantly different.

Again, I haven't tried it (and I don't think I will), but assuming the PKM could properly strike a 7.62x51 round (I suspect it could), the lesser amount of powder would probably mean it wouldn't cycle. Or, if it did, the different shape at the base would mean that it couldn't properly eject the round. Not to mention the fact that there wouldn't be a decent seal in the chamber, so all sorts of stuff could happen to the bullet when it is fired.

Regardless, in a pinch it might be worth 1 shot, which may or may not end up damaging the rifle, and/or injuring the person wielding it. Mighty expensive proposition for would basically be a very heavy single-shot weapon.

I don't mean to question your recollection of the lecture, but perhaps the instructor said something to the effect that it might fit, but probably won't fire?

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Old 04-20-2010, 04:35 PM   #3
Herbiie

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Default Re: U.S. leaves Afghanistan’s ‘Valley of Death’

Quote:
Originally Posted by [R-CON]Trexian View Post
I don't mean to question your recollection of the lecture, but perhaps the instructor said something to the effect that it might fit, but probably won't fire?
Having checked my notes it basically says that there will be problems, but it would work, though it's not perfect obviously, but in a pinch (as you say) it would be worth it to save your life. There would be many problems but it would still work. The end might not be the same but as long as it isn't too big to fit down the barrel, there would be three things that happen: It doesn't grip the grooves because it's too small, causing it to be inaccurate (but when you believe Allah guides your bullets who cares) it damages the Rifling causing it to be permanently inaccurate or it works.

*edit*
I don't mind being questioned by someone who has thought it through, because that's just debate, but it's just people who just think "He must be lieing" who annoy me.

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Last edited by Herbiie; 04-20-2010 at 04:41 PM..
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Old 04-20-2010, 04:39 PM   #4
HardcoreCook

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Default Re: U.S. leaves Afghanistan’s ‘Valley of Death’

02:47
AK 47 vs M16 | SplodeTV.com

And this pic


On the left, 5.56, the standard round for the M16 and the M4. If not for the whole of NATO, but im not too sure about that so i just keep it with these guns.
On the right, you have the 7.62. Your AK47 round.
As you can see, theres more than just
Quote:
A few millimeteres makes virtually no difference
However


In the middle, you have the 5.45, the AK74 round. Some insurgents use the AK74, but the 47 is still cheaper, so youll see the 47 more often than the 74.
Here, you might indeed have a slight little difference that could be neglectable.
Only drawback is....
The 5.56 is longer.....
Therefore, 5.45 wont fit...

Sorry, you just cant use a 5.56 in a AK47/74....

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Last edited by HardcoreCook; 04-20-2010 at 04:46 PM..
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Old 04-20-2010, 04:45 PM   #5
Trexian
Default Re: U.S. leaves Afghanistan’s ‘Valley of Death’

Ok, one other thought, though. Assuming the x51 is in belts, and the PKM is going to fire belted x54R, you're also going to count on the belts being compatible. Those are designed based on the firing rate of the weapon. Not only do you have different weapons, with different firing rates, and different chamber tolerances, you're firing a "lighter" load in the PKM, which will result in a different firing rate (assuming it'll fire more than once).

Not to belabor the point but I just don't see that happening. There are too many variables.

It might make for a cool Hollywood movie ending, though. The hero (John McClane) has a PKM, but no ammo. There are belts of x51 that have been abandoned. He has one shot to hit the detonator 200m away, that will cause a chain reaction ending in the death of all his enemies. He grabs a belt, rips a round out, manually chambers it in the PKM, and slowly takes aim....


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Old 04-20-2010, 04:46 PM   #6
Herbiie

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Default Re: U.S. leaves Afghanistan’s ‘Valley of Death’

Quote:
Originally Posted by HardcoreCook View Post
Sorry, you just cant use a 5.56 in a AK47/74....
I know, but I'm not talking about the 5.56, it mentioned a 7.62x51 (I think)

& 5.56 is NATO Standard, I know the FAMAS, L85A2, and the German weapon (Never can remember the name) use it.

*edit*
How hard would it be to modify that sort of thing though? Obviously I doubt that you could pick it up and use it, but as for the rate of fire etc. that could easily be modified, wouldn't be reliable, but as an Isnurgent I'd want all the ammunition I could get.

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Old 04-20-2010, 04:51 PM   #7
Trexian
Default Re: U.S. leaves Afghanistan’s ‘Valley of Death’

Modify the chamber and barrel?

If you're a gunsmith with all sorts of tools and extra barrels sitting around, I dunno... maybe a day's worth of work?

*Edit:
I think on some mounted MG's you can actually change the rate of fire, sorta like select-fire on assault rifles. Not something you can do on LMGs/MMGs/GPMGs/man-carryable MGs... at least none that I can think of.

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Old 04-20-2010, 04:51 PM   #8
HardcoreCook

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Default Re: U.S. leaves Afghanistan’s ‘Valley of Death’

Well, you'd pretty much need a whole new fing reciever. It has to fit the 5.56 and that takes quite some precise tooling stuff.

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Old 04-20-2010, 04:56 PM   #9
BloodBane611
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Default Re: U.S. leaves Afghanistan’s ‘Valley of Death’

Any civilian in the US who learns about shooting from any kind of instructor will remember that one of the rules of gun safety is only use the correct ammunition for your weapon. If you fail to do so you run a serious risk of causing overpressure and blowing it up, either because of a blockage or because of a higher powder burn pressure than your weapon is capable of withstanding. I have accidentally chambered 16 gauge shotgun ammo in a 12 gauge shotgun. As Trexian has pointed out, I ended up with a heavy rattle, since 16 gauge is much, much smaller than 12 gauge, and the firing pin can't hit the primer. Thankfully I was stuck wondering why my 12 gauge sounded weird and wouldn't fire, rather than why half a shotgun was stuck in my eye.

One of the few common exceptions to this rule is .357/.38 cal rounds, which I understand from shooters can in fact be safely interchanged. However, even in this case, failing to clean the excess lead buildup from firing the shorter .38 rounds can cause the longer .357 rounds to seat incorrectly in the chamber. These rounds are only 23 thousandths of an inch different in diameter (.584 mm), and both cartridges are not bottlenecked, meaning that there is no incompatibility caused by different neck angles.

I have also heard that .223 rounds can be used in rifles chambered for 5.56 (but not the reverse), however I don't know anyone who actively practices using the incorrect cartridge for their rifle. This article points out that it may be safe, if you're careful: GunCentral.net - .223 vs 5.56x45 and .308 vs 7.62x51

Now, as far as using a 5.56x45 round in a 5.45x39 chamber - as trexian discussed above with the 7.62 calibers, it might be possible. However, the 5.56 is 15% longer, I doubt it would chamber at all. If it did, the increased chamber pressure could quite possibly destroy your weapon. Their shoulder angles are both different as well: 20.3 degrees for the 5.45, 23 degrees for the 5.56. (wiki source for both, if you have something more reliable feel free to bring it up)

In summary, if they did leave ammunition behind it almost certainly cannot be used in an AK type weapon.



*EDIT*

Well, seems like you guys had a whole debate while I was typing this up. Let me address a few points:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbiie
The end might not be the same but as long as it isn't too big to fit down the barrel, there would be three things that happen: It doesn't grip the grooves because it's too small, causing it to be inaccurate (but when you believe Allah guides your bullets who cares) it damages the Rifling causing it to be permanently inaccurate or it works.
You missed at least one possibility: The round is just small enough to fit into the barrel, but has so much friction on the grooves that the amount of powder behind it cannot force it out of the barrel. When you chamber and fire a second round it either blows up your weapon or gets stuck as well. Very rapidly, you either notice you aren't firing rounds down range, or your weapon explodes in your face.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbiie
How hard would it be to modify that sort of thing though? Obviously I doubt that you could pick it up and use it, but as for the rate of fire etc. that could easily be modified, wouldn't be reliable, but as an Isnurgent I'd want all the ammunition I could get.
It would be extremely challenging, and would require specialist equipment and knowledge of gunsmithing. For guys who don't even clean their weapons, this would be impossible. For the more technically skilled Talibs it might be in reach, but more likely (and far easier) is that they would capture/buy a 5.56 caliber weapon to use them in, or ditch them.



[R-CON]creepin - "because on the internet 0=1"

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Last edited by BloodBane611; 04-20-2010 at 05:03 PM..
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Old 04-20-2010, 05:26 PM   #10
Herbiie

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Default Re: U.S. leaves Afghanistan’s ‘Valley of Death’

Quote:
Originally Posted by [R-COM]BloodBane611 View Post
Any civilian in the US who learns about shooting from any kind of instructor will remember that one of the rules of gun safety is only use the correct ammunition for your weapon.
Yes because Insurgents follow safety Guidelines.

P.s - The Taliban clean and Oil their weapons, alot, they aren't your standard Insurgents, they are well organised. That said, they still need all the ammunition they can get.

As for the Rate Of Fire - hell I bet I could do a botch job with modifying my belt to hold a different round! Some padding etc. wouldn't be perfect and would probably be dangerous, but as long as it works for a bit who cares?

Modifying the rounds would be time consuming and dangerous, but could lead to it working. I'm not sure, would be interesting to find out.

Ofcourse, they should really just turn scottish and stick to the good 'ole Claymore. (Not the mine, this:)

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