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PR:BF2 General Discussion General discussion of the Project Reality: BF2 modification.

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Old 01-06-2010, 10:46 PM   #1
Hunt3r
Default Deviation needs to be revisited.

As a person who has been playing and analyzing PR for about 3-4 months now, and I think we need to revisit one of the very basics of PR: deviation.

As I played PR, I have begun to notice a type of gameplay that seems to be encouraged that I really have never seen before.

To me, it seems like a system in which firefights are drawn out and killing, which is, in both reality and this game, made a secondary point. This is strange to me because most of the tickets we get are from killing. In essence, we seem to just be taking fire and returning fire until luck means that we get killed.

Deviation is the center of this.

With the deviation of all builds, starting from .8 to .87, deviation has been taken to what I consider astronomical levels. No mod nor game has ever had deviation taken to levels like these.

So I started digging. I used the search button to find all threads related to deviation, and it's taken quite a while to really get to the bottom of where the trend of being in favor of heavy deviation and long scope-in times came to be.

After lots of digging and asking, I found two threads that I will henceforth refer to as ground zero, where everything started.

If you would want to know, the two threads of importance that are being discussed here would be here: http://www.realitymod.com/forum/f388...ation-wip.html

and here: http://www.realitymod.com/forum/f388...times-wip.html

So allow me to do examination of this, if you would prefer me to do so. If you do not wish to read on, then you should stop here. If you don't want to read the in-depth version, skip to the bottom, where I will include a fast summary of the points.

It seems to me, a person who is relatively seasoned with Project Reality and Combined Arms, that deviation in Project Reality contains flaws, which generally make it's representation of marksmanship in reality unrealistic.

Many forum members, many highly regarded in this community, say it is not so, but in truth, marksmanship is not like this. In reality, you shoot where you aim, even when walking. Shooting is not as complicated as some say it to be. In reality, although it is true that your heartbeat, breathing, natural wobble, and sway all affect your accuracy. However, it is definitely not to the extent that is depicted in Project Reality.

If you are a dedicated infantryman, then you can say that you can shoot minute-of-badguy out to at least 300 yards. US Marines train to hit targets at 500 yards with standard iron sights in the M16, so accuracy is not an issue.

Now, it is self-evident through the evidence provided at ground zero that through the heavy influence of a clan called Task Force 21, Project Reality changed dramatically, as their beliefs of taking fire and returning fire was implemented in Project Reality. This had the effect of drastically reducing accuracy in weapons and things that could be made to fit this idea, and would marginalize all other roles. Infantry fighting is where this is especially obvious, since it has been affected the most.

The concept of taking fire and returning fire is peculiar though, because of the way to win the game. In this game, the main mechanism that reduces tickets to win the game is killing. Not flag capping. Ticket bleed is a factor, but it is not a significant factor in the outcome of the battle and only serves to quickly end a game in which one side has been decisively overpowered.

So the system of taking fire and returning fire is a contradiction to the main mechanism in which one can win the game. Since the words "taking fire and returning fire" implies that both sides are simply suppressing each other. Suppressing does not imply that you are killing the enemy.

Marginalization of anything in Project Reality that does not fit into the system of taking fire and returning fire seems evident to me now that I look at Project Reality. In Project Reality, warm up times in which applying throttle creates unstable helicopters is a way of simply making a potentially offensive helicopter never leave the ground. The changing of how attack helicopters used their missiles was an attempt to make them have to take fire in order to return fire.

To us, people who flip choppers are considered noobs, and this sentiment that people who want accurate weapons and realistic capabilities are 'nilla nubs, and these people tend to be used as a scapegoat. With the previous statements, it is obvious that we need to examine many parts of Project Reality closely. Project Reality is trying to change player behavior, but as the saying goes around here, players are hardcoded.

The main points in the post are:
  • Task Force 21 heavily influenced Project Reality development, and has attempted to implement a system of taking fire and returning it.
  • This system calls for the marginalization of anything in the game and anyone who tries to get around it.
  • So called "nilla nubs" are in general, blamed for negative aspects of this system.
  • Task Force 21 is disbanded, however it's influence continues to weigh heavily on Project Reality's development.
This post is not meant to be inflammatory, demeaning, insulting, libelous, or slanderous in any way. If anyone has objections, please voice them in comments or PMs.
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Old 01-06-2010, 10:57 PM   #2
OkitaMakoto
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Default Re: Deviation needs to be revisited.

I think you need not include the things about TF21 influencing it as it really seems you have a grudge and ruins your argument, in my opinion at least. Its also not really relevant as it seems the only basis for this is the coders tags...

The way I see it, sure deviation has flaws, its not meant to be perfect. Also, firing animations were heavily changed for .9 so wait for that.

Helos having a 30 warm up timer slow down gameplay and allow troops to hop in and get settled with the correct squad before the helo takes off. Its not only showing that you cant simply hop in a helo and fly off, but it helps prevent people from flying off alone, leaving a guy behind, among other things.

With each release the firing of rifles gets closer to what it needs to be, sometimes it strays but its corrected and tweaked in later releases. We went from no deviation, to high deviation, to laser pin point rifles to crazy deviation to the decent deviation we have now in the current public version. its all a WIP
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Old 01-06-2010, 11:00 PM   #3
galeknight1

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Default Re: Deviation needs to be revisited.

Great post, I hope everyone who comments on this thread actually reads the whole thing through before shouting 'lock' 'use search' and 'there's already a thread about this' because this really looks at it at a different angle. I have not been playing as long as most members of this forum (6 months) and as such I think some people need to stop defending aspects to PR, first and foremost deviation. The reasons are stated above, so I will not repeat what has been said there and in past threads.

EDIT: To Okita - I am happy to hear this problem is being fixed for future updates... Though I don't really agree we have decent deviation now (Can't imagine what it was like before)
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Old 01-06-2010, 11:04 PM   #4
Jaymz
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Default Re: Deviation needs to be revisited.

If we could have....

1. A sway system designed around each and every stance that reacts to stamina, movement and weapon transitions.

2. A free-aim sighting system that doesn't mechanically attach your rifle to your cheek and perfectly stabilize itself while allowing you to rotate 180-360 degrees in a matter of milliseconds. Even while you're prone! Segue to points 3 and 4...

3. A system where no form of turning speed is only limited by the dpi of your mouse and where each stance has it's own turning speed.

4. 1st person movement animations for all stances.

5. A stamina system that effects accuracy.

6. A realistic ballistics model where the travel path of a rifle round is not a straight line.

7. A system where a soldiers weapon isn't always in the hip/ready position.

8. A weapon collision system.

...all of those features (and I mean all). Then all we'd have to do is plug in factory MoA settings or marksmanship qualification groupings and we'd be good to go.

But we don't, I'm sorry. This is BF2.

"Clear the battlefield and let me see, All the profit from our victory." - Greg Lake
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Old 01-06-2010, 11:05 PM   #5
Hunt3r
Default Re: Deviation needs to be revisited.

Quote:
Originally Posted by [R-DEV]OkitaMakoto View Post
I think you need not include the things about TF21 influencing it as it really seems you have a grudge and ruins your argument, in my opinion at least. Its also not really relevant as it seems the only basis for this is the coders tags...
I have nothing against TF21, but it just seems that they lead the charge for increased deviation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by [R-DEV]OkitaMakoto View Post
The way I see it, sure deviation has flaws, its not meant to be perfect. Also, firing animations were heavily changed for .9 so wait for that.
I'd like to see how this affects gameplay in .9, and I might change my stance depending on how it plays out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by [R-DEV]OkitaMakoto View Post
Helos having a 30 warm up timer slow down gameplay and allow troops to hop in and get settled with the correct squad before the helo takes off. Its not only showing that you cant simply hop in a helo and fly off, but it helps prevent people from flying off alone, leaving a guy behind, among other things.
Couldn't this be accomplished without making the helicopters flip?

Quote:
Originally Posted by [R-DEV]OkitaMakoto View Post
With each release the firing of rifles gets closer to what it needs to be, sometimes it strays but its corrected and tweaked in later releases. We went from no deviation, to high deviation, to laser pin point rifles to crazy deviation to the decent deviation we have now in the current public version. its all a WIP
Well, if the developers think that it's going to be more fun for everyone if deviation is a certain way, then sure, why not try it.
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Old 01-06-2010, 11:07 PM   #6
OkitaMakoto
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Default Re: Deviation needs to be revisited.

Its also worth noting as Fuzzhead did in the linked thread, that deviation is not merely there to simulate realistic weapon handling, but to increase the effectiveness of real world tactics. A stationary soldier with time to properly align his body to fire will be more effective than a soldier running across a war torn street. Flanking and setting up in a position ahead of time will lead to better results.

before deviation, these things were nowhere near as important since you could run, stop shoot run stop shoot.

as far as TF21 leading the charge, personally I dont get where you see it. All i see to add to that claim is the one who worked on some WIP coding had that tag.. no other TF21 posted in that thread from what i saw lol

as far is helos not flipping, well tis prolly a hard coded issue, but tbh, i dont know
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Old 01-06-2010, 11:14 PM   #7
Hunt3r
Default Re: Deviation needs to be revisited.

Quote:
Originally Posted by [R-DEV]OkitaMakoto View Post
as far as TF21 leading the charge, personally I dont get where you see it. All i see to add to that claim is the one who worked on some WIP coding had that tag.. no other TF21 posted in that thread from what i saw lol
The guys that seem to be most fervently in favor of more deviation had TF21 tags...

I know that we can't have laser rifles, but reducing the time it takes to reach minimum deviation and reducing the penalty from moving your view would go a long way to make it more realistic.

On a side note, realistic ballistics can be achieved by making all rounds tracers with earth gravity, but that means either you shoot all tracers or no tracers.

As for adding sway, etc, that's for PR2, if it is successful.

Also, with 1.5 the prone dive deviation with PR's deviation becomes sort of nutty.
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Old 01-06-2010, 11:23 PM   #8
Jaymz
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Default Re: Deviation needs to be revisited.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunt3r View Post
an't have laser rifles, but reducing the time it takes to reach minimum deviation and reducing the penalty from moving your view
Being worked on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunt3r View Post
On a side note, realistic ballistics can be achieved by making all rounds tracers with earth gravity, but that means either you shoot all tracers or no tracers.
Even after sacrificing tracer ratios. Only ballistic trajectories are fixed. Which, by itself, is only one of many problems we face in BF2 (as I listed).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunt3r View Post
Also, with 1.5 the prone dive deviation with PR's deviation becomes sort of nutty.
Prone diving will be completely pointless in 0.9.

"Clear the battlefield and let me see, All the profit from our victory." - Greg Lake
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Old 01-06-2010, 11:28 PM   #9
Tim270
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Default Re: Deviation needs to be revisited.

Well ever since deviation got properly introduced fire-fights, especially at close range, are pretty much retarded, its quite a surreal feeling playing and just having someone stare back at you 20m away both knowing they have to fire their gun and miss for a good x amount of seconds before either can kill. But hey, like Jaymz said, if the engine does allow a better alternative..... if only RO ballistics/free look could be done in pr.

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Old 01-06-2010, 11:33 PM   #10
Hunt3r
Default Re: Deviation needs to be revisited.

Quote:
Originally Posted by [R-DEV]Jaymz View Post
Being worked on.
Good to know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by [R-DEV]Jaymz View Post
Even after sacrificing tracer ratios. Only ballistic trajectories are fixed. Which, by itself, is only one of many problems we face in BF2 (as I listed).
Unless you have a constant wind speeds in parts of the map, or slowly changing ones, it will take a supercomputer to accurately calculate wind speeds and the associated windage.

Yes, everything else requires a new engine in order to get more realistic aiming systems. However maximum and minimum deviation should both be lowered some. This is solely a comment regarding Project Reality .8xx

Red Orchestra: Heroes of Stalingrad will basically set the bar for how marksmanship should be done, based off of released gameplay videos.
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