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Old 10-11-2009, 07:49 PM   #1
Hunt3r
Default Strategic Relevance of attack aircraft on kashan/qinling

Playing Kashan Desert and Qinling, I've begun to question the strategic and tactical relevance of the jets and attack helicopters in this game.

The fact is, right now, jets serve to achieve air superiority in the case of the Mig/F-16 types, but the attack helicopters and CAS jets, as they are, are irrelevant to the game except how they make you lose tickets. Attack helicopters require a hover to even get close to killing targets, and even with a lase and a marker, you're highly likely to lose against even an APC. CAS can be shot down be mass tank and APC fire.

In the end, you have air superiority jets to ensure the skies are clear for CAS jets that can't perform CAS, and attack helicopters that can't be used as attack helicopters.

Since achieving air superiority does absolutely nothing, in the end, you have wasted tickets, time, all to be of no service to the people who really need support, the infantry.

In the end, no one fulfills their roles, and no teamwork happens, because lasing is pointless, achieving air superiority is useless, and trying to coordinate air support is useless.

Fuzzhead tells us that we need to do preemptive attacks to stay alive.

There is something queer about needing to do attacks to what amounts to baserape in order to stay alive.

Let's take, for example, the Apache. In Kashan 32, flying at anywhere lower then 1500 altitude is suicide. You can try and cover it up with denial and examples, but there is no realism or teamwork in an Apache and Havoc duking it out above the clouds, away from where they should be.

Something is very wrong when a supposed realistic conversion to a game is less realistic in role then the original game itself.

In the end, attack helicopters, fighter jets, and CAS jets are all strategically and tactically pointless. When attack helicopters rejoice at being able to engage tanks instead of helicopters at least once in a match, something is wrong.
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Old 10-11-2009, 08:23 PM   #2
Rudd
Retired PR Developer
Supporting Member

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Default Re: Strategic Relevance

I really disagree, the number of times my arse has been saved by my comrades in the sky are innumerable.

What you want, for air units to kill things that are trying to kill you.

What the air units want, grid references with a prompt laze and a quick check for visible AA positions.

If everyone is doing their job then everyone gets what they want.

Yes, you have to be pretty slow to attack from long range in teh attack helis though they still work, but the jets are plenty effective.

Quote:
but there is no realism or teamwork in an Apache and Havoc duking it out above the clouds, away from where they should be.
Yeah, and the Americans didn't wage an air war in Iraq before moving in, ya know...gaining air superiority.


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Old 10-11-2009, 08:39 PM   #3
Hunt3r
Default Re: Strategic Relevance

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr2B Rudd View Post
I really disagree, the number of times my arse has been saved by my comrades in the sky are innumerable.

What you want, for air units to kill things that are trying to kill you.

What the air units want, grid references with a prompt laze and a quick check for visible AA positions.

If everyone is doing their job then everyone gets what they want.

Yes, you have to be pretty slow to attack from long range in teh attack helis though they still work, but the jets are plenty effective.
If you'd like to realize the sheer amount of problems with attack helicopters, just see how they fly.

The A-10 might be able to provide CAS, but lases are incredibly hard to deal with. As a spotter, it took a good three minutes to get a lase working. For some reason or another, lases are horribly bad.

What is even remotely "realistic" or relevant about a plane that has to loiter far up in the clouds just to not get shot down by AA?

There isn't anything realistic about two attack helicopters fighting each other on a regular basis either. In reality, attack helicopters are ground attack aircraft, with anti air in self defense. If helicopters were all we needed to gain air superiority, the F-22 wouldn't be around now would it?
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Old 10-11-2009, 08:50 PM   #4
Rudd
Retired PR Developer
Supporting Member

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Default Re: Strategic Relevance

Quote:
If you'd like to realize the sheer amount of problems with attack helicopters, just see how they fly.
I fly when I get the chance, one time I was gratified to hear on mumble radio from the ground

"what is that at North Village, is that arty?"

"no, that's Rudd"




Quote:
What is even remotely "realistic" or relevant about a plane that has to loiter far up in the clouds just to not get shot down by AA?
The altnerative being? afaik alert aircraft circle the battlefield in case som1 needs help. I think this depiction is pretty good.

Though if aircraft could enter the surrouding terrain without penality, it would help the pilots since the maps would effectively be bigger for them.

Quote:
There isn't anything realistic about two attack helicopters fighting each other on a regular basis either. In reality, attack helicopters are ground attack aircraft, with anti air in self defense. If helicopters were all we needed to gain air superiority, the F-22 wouldn't be around now would it?
Thats the result of a max of 32 players.


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Old 10-11-2009, 09:01 PM   #5
flem615
Default Re: Strategic Relevance

Well the fact is, in real life CAS and fixed wing air support wins wars. But in PR no one uses teamwork effectively. anyone who disagrees with this statements lying: only 1 in 10 games are relatively played with teamwork and coordination. that being said, even the 1 game thats ok isnt even enough to support the coordination of air/ground attacks. i do think that helicopters should remain in game, but attack jets should be taken out. they really serve no purpose but a ticket vacuum.
join a clan you say? better teamwork you say? do tournaments you say?
well i would if i could dedicate my life to PR. seeing as this isnt possible its not a viable option, so lets leave that outta the discussion.
the only servers that played PR the right way was the Rt mumble servers, but theyre empty now. until mumble, or something like that is integrated into PR or the Rt servers get popular again, teamwork will remain scarce in PR. and as long as teamwork is scarce, jets will be obsolete.

Ingame Name: IICptMillerII
Xfire: Patton615, (nickname:IICptMillerII)
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Old 10-11-2009, 09:09 PM   #6
Hunt3r
Default Re: Strategic Relevance

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr2B Rudd View Post
I fly when I get the chance, one time I was gratified to hear on mumble radio from the ground

"what is that at North Village, is that arty?"

"no, that's Rudd"






The altnerative being? afaik alert aircraft circle the battlefield in case som1 needs help. I think this depiction is pretty good.

Though if aircraft could enter the surrouding terrain without penality, it would help the pilots since the maps would effectively be bigger for them.



Thats the result of a max of 32 players.
The alternative to helicopters flying WAYYY up high is to fly realistically, down low.

When attack helos are relegated to being dedicated anti-infantry, and attack LBs being dedicated worthless cardboard boxes, you no longer have things with natural roles.

When you give things realistic capabilities, players use them realistically. You then get realistic behavior. When you add illogical things like forcing AGMs on the CAS jets to require a lase, you lose realism. Where is the teamwork in a person simply lasing and saying where a person is? Is this teamwork, or is this simply trying to give perfect balance, as opposed to asymmetrical balance?

There's a seemingly general sentiment in the PR community that teamwork has to be forced in any way possible, which seems to ignore a universal truth:

Things are there for a reason, or else they wouldn't exist.

As much fun as it is to spam Hydras, Hellfires, and 30mm, in the end, you end up with an attack helicopter that can't fulfill it's role, which is to kill tanks. You end up with an attack helicopter that is nerfed.

And Flem615 is pretty much right on target. Either fix the jets and helos, or just ditch them altogether. Either one makes a large majority happy. As it is they look like the result of design by committee, and no one ends up happy.
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Old 10-11-2009, 10:35 PM   #7
Hoboknighter
Default Re: Strategic Relevance

The visual distance from CA would be nicely implemented in Kashan. That, and the fact that for air support, coordinates are generally given well in advance to destroy enemy assets (buildings, armor, etc.) Lases need to last WAYYYYY longer and be seen from farther away for a lock. Attempting to do something similiar to a real life with the apache/havok now results in firing a missle from 2k-3k away and hopeing to god you get that 1 in a million hit on an enemy tank with the laser guided missles.
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Old 10-11-2009, 11:17 PM   #8
Hunt3r
Default Re: Strategic Relevance

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoboknighter View Post
and hopeing to god you get that 1 in a million hit on an enemy tank with the laser guided missles.
Suddenly attack helos are less and less justified in their existence..
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Old 10-11-2009, 11:55 PM   #9
amazing_retard
Default Re: Strategic Relevance

I don't think there is anything wrong with the aircraft, I just think the teamwork in pubs is terrible. Even with good teamwork, the choppers are always getting shot at by something. Perhaps this is an issue within the community itself, maybe we need some more teamwork incentives? This isn't an easy problem to solve guys
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Old 10-12-2009, 12:57 AM   #10
Hunt3r
Default Re: Strategic Relevance

Quote:
Originally Posted by amazing_retard View Post
I don't think there is anything wrong with the aircraft, I just think the teamwork in pubs is terrible. Even with good teamwork, the choppers are always getting shot at by something. Perhaps this is an issue within the community itself, maybe we need some more teamwork incentives? This isn't an easy problem to solve guys
People aren't the problem. Of course choppers will be shot at. The problem is the fact that they're made of cardboard in this game and are forced into extremely dangerous situations because of how LT is too unreliable and LG is too easy to miss.

So instead we use the AIM-9s and deal with the other helo, and after that just do nothing. Even attempting to attack armor is a huge gamble.

The A-10 is just as easy to destroy, and the only real weapons you can use are the bombs, because anything else exposes you to fire, and seeing as how the A-10 is made from cardboard too, you might as well give up the first time you get locked.
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