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PR:BF2 General Discussion General discussion of the Project Reality: BF2 modification.

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Old 08-07-2009, 12:35 PM   #1
Sirex[SWE][MoW]
Default The unrealistic elements of flag objectives.

Hi!
First of i am new so don't be mad if this turns out to be talked to death or i am just of the hook please .

I personally find these objective games, AASv3, rubbish. Because there is no real strategy or tactic when everyone rush the same flags, and the flags are another thing all together. Let me give you folks some other views.

I have played steel panthers: world at war which is a hardcore realistic ww2 turnbased hexbased strategy game where you start with a predetermined force which you can't reinforce and you have big maps. In this game from the start there where also flags which you needed to hold when the game ends (there are also flags which you gain points for holding each turn), when the turn limit is up. This gameplay often resulted in sovjet wawe attacks to the flags, often the few turns before the turn limit was up. And you win by having more points in the end and you also get points for killing enemy things.

The solution they reached was to create better, as in more fun and realistic, combat was to get rid of flags and have the players play "campaings" where you save your force between battles and thus create incitement not to waste your forces. Also artificial rule to only allow recon forces to spawn closer to the enemy.

Because they also realised that flags are a way to abstract things that don't need to be abstracted! What does the flags represent? They represent attack objectives, but the thing is in the military almost no rank has the same objective thus these global flag objective become ridiculous and this is why flags don't work in games tring to simulate real life warfare becuase every player in the server form commander and soldier with flags have the same objectives witch is bull.

Example: Battalion commander objective is to take the city "BLAA", he gives one company commander objective to take the docks, the company commander gives one platoon commander to take along the coast, the platoon commander give one squad leader objective to take the next right building, soldier gets objective to breach the door. See irl there are no "flags" they are always dynamical created with the overall objective to kill enemies and gain terrain! Everyone have different objectives. And whit PR firebase and rally system and command system there is no reason to use flags, all effort should be to remove them if you want this game to be more realistic!

So translated in to PR i think that if you want to have more real-life combat and use the commander more you have to work with command and control gameplay and have high timelimit and long vehicle respawn (this last thing will make players and the team be conservative of your forces).

This would result in more teamwork since people will ask for objectives and allow the commander to form a battle plan, since the main objective will no longer be "take the clearing in the wood because god wants it and will kill us if we don't have boots on that clearing exactly in 3 hours and 45 minutes" instead the team will work to take important roads and terrain on the map to limit the enemy movement and allow your own troops freedom of movement whit the ultimate goal to box in the enemy and strike at their base. Sicne in fact just breaking their lines and having your armour behind enemy lines ramping and flanking will win your team the k/d and allow you to push at the enemy base. Which is realistic, tanks historic use has always been to rampage behind enemy lines.

This is my views on the matter, i just don't want you to reinvent the wheel on this one.
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Last edited by Sirex[SWE][MoW]; 08-07-2009 at 01:11 PM..
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Old 08-07-2009, 01:08 PM   #2
arjan

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Default Re: The unrealistic elements of flag objectives.

I would like to see a map with no flag at all yeah
Just fighting over terrain sounds simple and good, it will make the battlefield more dynamic and let youre team decide what to do, so each map will play out verry different.
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Old 08-07-2009, 01:18 PM   #3
[R-MOD]Spec
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Default Re: The unrealistic elements of flag objectives.

No flags? C&C gamemode. It's already in game (unless it was removed in 0.86 or sth). Also, the Devs are probably working on another game mode with map specific objectives, again, unless that was dropped or something.
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Old 08-07-2009, 01:20 PM   #4
Sirex[SWE][MoW]
Default Re: The unrealistic elements of flag objectives.

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Originally Posted by Spec_Operator View Post
No flags? C&C gamemode. It's already in game (unless it was removed in 0.86 or sth)
Yes but no server seems to play it, and also i was more into offering my views on the subject.
Why is C&C not played that much? What is your view on that system?
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Old 08-07-2009, 01:26 PM   #5
[R-MOD]Spec
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Default Re: The unrealistic elements of flag objectives.

I can't really comment to that as I haven't played in a while and never tried C&C. So far I had no problem with AAS, but C&C sound very interesting, and I see your point and kinda agree that flags aren't the perfect solution. I hope the Dev's are still working on an objective based gamemode as I think that'd be best.
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Old 08-07-2009, 01:26 PM   #6
snooggums
Default Re: The unrealistic elements of flag objectives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirex[SWE][MoW] View Post
Yes but no server seems to play it, and also i was more into offering my views on the subject.
Why is C&C not played that much? What is your view on that system?
What happens is the teams will hide the firebases in ridiculous locations and the round just takes forever because there is no place to meet and fight, and all four firebases have to be destroyed for a bleed so it ends up like a map with no purpose.

I look forward to a revamp of the system because it does allow for flexibility but needs to be refined first.

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Old 08-07-2009, 01:33 PM   #7
NyteMyre

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Default Re: The unrealistic elements of flag objectives.

Op.Barracuda has no bleed, so the flag there are pretty much pointless
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Old 08-07-2009, 01:34 PM   #8
Sirex[SWE][MoW]
Default Re: The unrealistic elements of flag objectives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snooggums View Post
What happens is the teams will hide the firebases in ridiculous locations and the round just takes forever because there is no place to meet and fight, and all four firebases have to be destroyed for a bleed so it ends up like a map with no purpose.

I look forward to a revamp of the system because it does allow for flexibility but needs to be refined first.
Hmm for me this seems strange, if your enemy turtles why not just out flank, control the rest of the map so they are forced to stay in their turtle base, attack from different locations and bomb them to hell? I mean if you hamper their supply ruots from main base they will be cutoff and have less heavy vehicles.

One reason why the scenario you describe comes up might be lack of coordination, a team that is coordinated would probably be able to overwhelm individual firebases and cut of enemy supply and use recon in a helpful and realistic way.

I think one reason why this don't work is that this games operate with an unrealistic low amount of artillery.
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Old 08-07-2009, 01:46 PM   #9
fuzzhead
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Default Re: The unrealistic elements of flag objectives.

Short response for now: most of dev team dont like flags either... its a hold over from vbf2 and hard to change mentality of BF2 (and PR) playerbase, but yea new things are being thought of and AAS is definitely not considered the best game mode, just what we have atm.
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Old 08-07-2009, 01:47 PM   #10
GreedoNeverShot

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Default Re: The unrealistic elements of flag objectives.

What would cause people to even leave the base? You could fortify an area and sit there forever, while racking up points. There is no incentive to attack, or gain ground. Flag markers cause people to attack, take loses, think, take risks, maneuver, flank, divide forces, and adapt to different situations.

In my opinion there should be more strategic value to the flags. Rather than taking random hills for no reason, you should take bunker complexes (for defense advantage), AA bunkers (for spawned AA), Heliports (for extra copters), Depots (for vehicles and ammo supply), Bridges (for transport), and things like that. Rather than taking flags for the sake of taking flags, you should take flags for their strategic value.

"If you outlaw guns, only Outlaws will have guns."
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Last edited by GreedoNeverShot; 08-07-2009 at 01:59 PM..
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