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Old 01-10-2016, 05:08 PM   #1
[R-CON]​Chuva_RD
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PR Server License Moderator

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Default AA vehicles and emplacements not really helpful

Yesterday I was playing Bijar Canyons, my squad was operating Avengers against MIGs throwing LGB on us. One of crews utilized 32 rockets for 1 jet, during period MIG was alive he bombed two Avengers. Every run jet popped around roughly 20 flares.

Today on Bijar Canyons my squad was operating same Avengers against Mi-28, again this flying target survived 32+ rockets, just easily dodged it by popping flares. After I locked chopper and shot 3 missiles he popped flares and survived, after 5 seconds I repeated it and got hellfire in cabine.

Some time ago on Muttrah Cobra made 10 runs in a row on city against two handled Strela's and one Djigit. I rebuilded Djigit twice because of hellfires.

I tried to shoot above flaring chopper, tried to shoot under it, directly on it, I was shooting jets flying right on me, jets in sky, tried to lock only jet leaving flares behind detecting zone, but I still absolutely don't know how to shoot down flying targets.

Let me ask how AA should work in this game? How AA operators should shoot down flying targets if they can't choose singature and even can't lock they if there are flares?
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Last edited by [R-CON]Chuva_RD; 01-10-2016 at 05:19 PM..
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Old 01-11-2016, 10:03 AM   #2
Danesh_italiano
Supporting Member
PR Server License Administrator
Default Re: AA vehicles and emplacements not really helpful

I think otherwise. Very easy to die by AA. Mainly flying in helicopters. MANY times when you lock and shot in the flares, the missile reflects and go to the jet/helicopter. Many times you can drop 30 flares and even then the missile explodes you.

So sei que nada sei.
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Old 01-11-2016, 10:32 AM   #3
Acecombatzer0

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Default Re: AA vehicles and emplacements not really helpful

It's pretty random dude, whenever you're on AA you think it sucks, and when you're in a jet/helo, you think AA is OP

It's the circle of life

CrazyHotMilf: can you release PR 1.0 today cause its my birthday and i want to play it ? because its gonna be very nice and every thing
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Old 01-11-2016, 10:44 AM   #4
viirusiiseli
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Default Re: AA vehicles and emplacements not really helpful

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acecombatzer0 View Post
It's pretty random dude, whenever you're on AA you think it sucks, and when you're in a jet/helo, you think AA is OP

It's the circle of life
This so much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuva_RD View Post
Today on Bijar Canyons my squad was operating same Avengers against Mi-28, again this flying target survived 32+ rockets, just easily dodged it by popping flares. After I locked chopper and shot 3 missiles he popped flares and survived, after 5 seconds I repeated it and got hellfire in cabine.

---

Let me ask how AA should work in this game? How AA operators should shoot down flying targets if they can't choose singature and even can't lock they if there are flares?
That same bijar round I manned a Djigit and killed both apaches. First one, with the first 2 missiles I shot at it while it was flaring. Second one I missed 4 missiles on, before killing it with the 3rd salvo of 2 missiles when it came back, through flares.

Then again, I took a 9k35 Gopher and fired 4 AA on 2 apaches without even getting 1 missile to track. It's bad luck here, good luck there.

And I don't know if it was your guys or not, but we got one-shotted by MANPAD stinger from about 1km distance away. You also didn't mention your AAV killing us on bijar city, with first 2 AAs.

In my opinion, when you shoot multiple AA at once, they tend to not work as well. When I fly a jet or heli, 1 missile turns out to be the deadliest. Static AAs seem to be the best out of all 3 aswell.

Having been on the opposite end, I can say this report is biased since you don't mention nothing but your negative experiences.
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Last edited by viirusiiseli; 01-11-2016 at 11:04 AM..
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Old 01-11-2016, 12:18 PM   #5
[R-CON]​Fastjack
PR:BF2 Contributor

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Default Re: AA vehicles and emplacements not really helpful

Check this thread: http://www.realitymod.com/forum/f10-...ossible-2.html
Here you will find out, how Anti Air missiles working.
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Old 01-11-2016, 03:18 PM   #6
[R-CON]​Chuva_RD
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Default Re: AA vehicles and emplacements not really helpful

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acecombatzer0 View Post
It's pretty random dude, whenever you're on AA you think it sucks, and when you're in a jet/helo, you think AA is OP

It's the circle of life
Let's look on facts and numbers instead of blind faith in luck.

Every AA missile have chance to not relock on flares when they are popped out (ObjectTemplate.seek.directionBonus 0.xx). Roughly all rockets can be grouped by this chance for ground-based and air-based.

Every CAS pilot use flares, I do not speak about the one who do not use it.

For the most of air-based rockets it is 0.85, or 15% chance what rocket will miss if one flare was popped out and 2% chance of two rockets miss the target. That's pretty many, and you almost can't excape they. This applies for both long-ranged and close-ranged rockets.

For the most of ground based rockets it varies from 0.1 to 0.2, so if I launch 1 rocket on jet or heli it hit the target with 10%-20% chance, not matter was there flares after lock or not.

Average number of rockets I suppose to set as 3 and it will be Stinger from Avenger with 0.1 chance of keeping target and AIM120 with 0.85. Math says you have 73% of miss with all three rockets from Stinger but 0.3% chance to miss with all three AIM120.

Diagrams for people who can't come to believe in numbers and theory of chances:

Reasonable question "How it's possible?" after this mark in 1.0 version changelog:
Quote:
Gameplay
Updated Flares, distracting AAs better now.
AS result ground AA not comparable with jet missiles and air defence up to jet pilots leaving ground crews useless.


Your turn, CAS gentlemens. I will look into any of your arguments supported by statistics/math/game mechanics, not by faith in luck or fate. Prove me this side of game not broken now.
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Last edited by [R-CON]Chuva_RD; 01-11-2016 at 03:28 PM..
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Old 01-11-2016, 03:30 PM   #7
[R-COM]KSVM_UA_
Ukrainian Faction Lead

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Default Re: AA vehicles and emplacements not really helpful

Lurked on some game files.

1.3 ninja nerfed this parameter of all AA's.

1.2.1 Starstreak:
ObjectTemplate.seek.directionBonus 0.5

1.3.9 Starstreak:
ObjectTemplate.seek.directionBonus 0.1

1.2.1 Strela-10M:
ObjectTemplate.seek.directionBonus 0.25

1.3.9 Strela-10M:
ObjectTemplate.seek.directionBonus 0.1

1.2.1 Tunguska-M:
ObjectTemplate.seek.directionBonus 0.5

1.3.9 Tunguska-M:
ObjectTemplate.seek.directionBonus 0.1

And my favourite:
1.2.1 Stinger:
ObjectTemplate.seek.directionBonus 0.8

1.3.9 Stinger:
ObjectTemplate.seek.directionBonus 0.15

And so on... Seems weird. Chuva_RD seems to be right in this one.
And the power of MATH is real.

"also known as a shittiest PR-team signature pic wearer"

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Old 04-18-2016, 03:17 AM   #8
Piipu

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Default Re: AA vehicles and emplacements not really helpful

This miss chance stuff is an interesting find, and explains why playing against CAS has gotten considerably more frustrating in the recent versions. Are there any news on fixing this issue? Or is the dev team going to ignore the issue once again like they always do when someone posts solid proof.
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Old 04-19-2016, 03:30 AM   #9
[R-DEV]Mats391
PR:BF2 Lead Developer
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Default Re: AA vehicles and emplacements not really helpful

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piipu View Post
This miss chance stuff is an interesting find, and explains why playing against CAS has gotten considerably more frustrating in the recent versions. Are there any news on fixing this issue? Or is the dev team going to ignore the issue once again like they always do when someone posts solid proof.
As far as we know the directionBonus is chance to miss not chance to hit. If you have information that it is other way round, we sure will change it. However "my SAM never hits" is no real proof, they also missed with higher directionBonus


Mineral: TIL that Wire-guided missiles actually use wire
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Old 04-19-2016, 12:39 PM   #10
Piipu

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Default Re: AA vehicles and emplacements not really helpful

Quote:
Originally Posted by [R-DEV]Mats391 View Post
As far as we know the directionBonus is chance to miss not chance to hit. If you have information that it is other way round, we sure will change it. However "my SAM never hits" is no real proof, they also missed with higher directionBonus
I just flew around in test airfield for an hour to test this with friends. Against a chopper that's not flaring at all, the missiles do seem to kill around 90% of the time, but if the chopper drops flares, only around 20-30% of the missiles do any damage at all to the chopper. Chance of direct hits against the chopper is pretty close to the 10% reported here. And that's only if the AA has a chance of getting a lock in the first place.

This was tested against a chopper that just flies along a straight line towards the AA placement without trying any evasive maneuvers. As long as the chopper has flares left, it can pretty much ignore the AA completely, while the AA placement is easy to kill using just rockets. With a gunner using missiles, it's even easier.

The only thing that's effective against CAS choppers seem to be Tunguska-type AAVs with a direct-fire cannon that doesn't rely on getting locks. Otherwise flares just make hitting the chopper impossible. It sounds to me that either flares should be nerfed, or all maps should have AAVs that have cannons. Maybe the AA placements could be replaced with ZPU-4 AA cannons as well?
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