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Old 2018-08-13, 06:41   #51
sirfstar

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Default Re: are the devs gonna do PR mod for SQUAD? PR:squad

and i'm glad you feel that way, sweetie
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Old 2018-08-13, 19:42   #52
fuzzhead
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Default Re: are the devs gonna do PR mod for SQUAD? PR:squad

Quote:
Originally Posted by sirfstar View Post
well my thoughts has been posted above
it seems like you're trying to keep current pace, or even speed it up
- ridiculous spawn-waves on unlimited rallies, which will render fobs obsolete anyway
- med. system where any average Joe can get you up fighting on site
-- so you just get to kill a squad that at first resurrects itself a few times then coming back in full force from their rally (faster than before because you don't need to waste time refreshing it), continuing squad's finest meat-grinder traditions

it is unclear how are you going to make it better in 2019

there are really easy ways to make it more like PR, just make it like PR! (makes sense right?)
but OWI is always just refuses to take PR's decades of experienc
No need to add hyperbole here... decades(s) is a bit hyperbolic.... PR has been in development for about 13 years (14 years if you consider pre-BF2 release conceptual artwork)... you dont need to speak in general terms about "OWI" and "PR Dev team" like you were around for these "decades" of development.

I wont go into all the details here, but you can fully read the Squad recaps (and of course there is some more tweaks to come for V12, not mentioned yet). I'll respond to some of your positions:

- - RP spawn waves: first time trying something like this (RP with a spawn waves) we will see how it goes. the goal is keeping squads with an ability to stick together (right now there is the common trickle in effect of RPs). IS PR's expiring RP system ideal? It might be in some ways, but not in other ways.
What I think you're missing in the assement (assuming your assessing in good faith and not just trying to be sour) is the "persistent ammo" changes, which means players respawn with the same ammo inventory that they die with, which will alter the pacing of the game, and affect how players use RPs, also affecting the way ammo distribution works.

- - revive system change: this is actually doing what you had requested (making Squad closer to PR), in PR you can pickup any medic with his own kit. we're doing it slightly differently, because the BF2 kit system is a self contained balanced system, but some major drawbacks, flaws and quirks. we wont be returning to that system, but will continue to develop our own.
there is some self limitations to the V12 revive system 1) non-medics get 2 bandages, medics get 8 bandages. bandages are still needed to stop injured players from bleeding out, so non-medics will not be able to constantly revive 2) non-medics take double the amount of time to revive incap players 3) incap players are revived with 5HP and 0 stamina 4) players below 10HP do not regenerate stamina
there are some additional penalties we can give to newly revived players, pending on the balancing.

to suggest none of these changes has any affect on pacing as you say, IMO is being naive or just purposely argumentative.
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Old 2018-08-13, 20:12   #53
[R-DEV]Mineral
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Default Re: are the devs gonna do PR mod for SQUAD? PR:squad

Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzhead View Post
- - RP spawn waves: first time trying something like this (RP with a spawn waves) we will see how it goes. the goal is keeping squads with an ability to stick together (right now there is the common trickle in effect of RPs). IS PR's expiring RP system ideal? It might be in some ways, but not in other ways.
This is indeed a obvious issue in Squad that I absolutely hate (hence wanted to post this ) Not sure why I never really noticed it as much in PR but in Squad an some other games with Squad based spawns have this a lot. Perhaps it's a community mindset that in PR was just drilled out by proper SLs. I'm glad to see it addressed. I think spawn wave systems aren't as bad as people make it sound. They can work perfectly fine in this game category.

We tried with v1.0 BETA to have longer give up timeouts to 'balance' rallies. Community screamed (mostly cause GUI never really gave you any decent indication why you had such a long spawntime) so it was removed but I believe it was also a step in the right direction. Spawning is pretty delicate as you are preventing people from playing the game and looking at a screen. I'm sure you guys will figure it out.

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Old 2018-08-13, 21:56   #54
inb4banned
Default Re: are the devs gonna do PR mod for SQUAD? PR:squad

Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzhead View Post
No need to add hyperbole here... decades(s) is a bit hyperbolic.... PR has been in development for about 13 years (14 years if you consider pre-BF2 release conceptual artwork)... you dont need to speak in general terms about "OWI" and "PR Dev team" like you were around for these "decades" of development.

I wont go into all the details here, but you can fully read the Squad recaps (and of course there is some more tweaks to come for V12, not mentioned yet). I'll respond to some of your positions:

- - RP spawn waves: first time trying something like this (RP with a spawn waves) we will see how it goes. the goal is keeping squads with an ability to stick together (right now there is the common trickle in effect of RPs). IS PR's expiring RP system ideal? It might be in some ways, but not in other ways.
What I think you're missing in the assement (assuming your assessing in good faith and not just trying to be sour) is the "persistent ammo" changes, which means players respawn with the same ammo inventory that they die with, which will alter the pacing of the game, and affect how players use RPs, also affecting the way ammo distribution works.

- - revive system change: this is actually doing what you had requested (making Squad closer to PR), in PR you can pickup any medic with his own kit. we're doing it slightly differently, because the BF2 kit system is a self contained balanced system, but some major drawbacks, flaws and quirks. we wont be returning to that system, but will continue to develop our own.
there is some self limitations to the V12 revive system 1) non-medics get 2 bandages, medics get 8 bandages. bandages are still needed to stop injured players from bleeding out, so non-medics will not be able to constantly revive 2) non-medics take double the amount of time to revive incap players 3) incap players are revived with 5HP and 0 stamina 4) players below 10HP do not regenerate stamina
there are some additional penalties we can give to newly revived players, pending on the balancing.

to suggest none of these changes has any affect on pacing as you say, IMO is being naive or just purposely argumentative.
As an extremely avid infantry player these changes seem good. Buddy revive was badly missing from the game, golden goat medic role is horrible. Rally point spawn waves should make it easier to keep the squad together - this is an issue in PR when people trying to get a better position end up dying and squad never ends up regrouping.

However, I don't think that Squad's infantry gameplay will ever feel anything like PR's after 1.x (whenever strafing speed was increased) unless you make fundamental changes that go against much of what has been established. The main problems are too little acceleration, too slow movement speed, weapons doing too much damage, ticket system, worse sound awareness, infinite view distance and overall map design.

Even if UE4 would be perfect these things make it impossible to mimic the intense firefights PR has - not because there's lack of suppression (new suppression will be terrible for gameplay), but because there's lack of freedom during firefights and every engagement being heavily based on see first - kill first.

I would really appreciate if after 3 years of development the goals would be clearly defined, saying that you're trying to make it more like PR doesn't mean much considering how much PR has changed and how little knowledge about the game the devs I was aware with actually have. I thought it was hilarious when they tried slowing the pace down by literally slowing down the movement by 20%, that achieved nothing at all. I wish you all the best.
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Old 2018-08-14, 01:24   #55
fuzzhead
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Default Re: are the devs gonna do PR mod for SQUAD? PR:squad

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mineral View Post
This is indeed a obvious issue in Squad that I absolutely hate (hence wanted to post this ) Not sure why I never really noticed it as much in PR but in Squad an some other games with Squad based spawns have this a lot. Perhaps it's a community mindset that in PR was just drilled out by proper SLs. I'm glad to see it addressed. I think spawn wave systems aren't as bad as people make it sound. They can work perfectly fine in this game category.

We tried with v1.0 BETA to have longer give up timeouts to 'balance' rallies. Community screamed (mostly cause GUI never really gave you any decent indication why you had such a long spawntime) so it was removed but I believe it was also a step in the right direction. Spawning is pretty delicate as you are preventing people from playing the game and looking at a screen. I'm sure you guys will figure it out.
Yeah agreed, spawning is something that so vitally affects gameplay balance
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Old 2018-08-14, 04:41   #56
sirfstar

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Default Re: are the devs gonna do PR mod for SQUAD? PR:squad

Quote:
to suggest none of these changes has any affect on pacing as you say, IMO is being naive or just purposely argumentative.
actually i've said the opposite. it has an effect of speeding up the pacing
Quote:
- - revive system change: this is actually doing what you had requested (making Squad closer to PR)
indeed it is, but current system is one of the few things that is effectively slowing it down. so that's the area when "making it like PR" might have a negative effect. though good for medic because people think he is useless now so i can live with that

Quote:
the goal is keeping squads with an ability to stick together (right now there is the common trickle in effect of RPs)
but is it? if the spawn timer just goes around constantly, you will have a lot of situations when half of a squad is still fighting and half of it re-spawning. so the goal is not met. (btw i can't wait to camp a rally from a distance with an RPG to make 9 kills in one shot )
if it starts only when every single member has died then it will actually slow things down but no one will like that so i doubt it works that way.
ammo changes - i don't think it has any effect because of how rallies are actually used: you don't need a lot of ammo to continue the meatgrinder usually.
the fact that it does not expire will adjust the meta to hide rallies a little further away and never bother with fobs building which is not a good thing too

anyway that's all the old news, we'll play it we'll see but i'm still very skeptical about these changes
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Last edited by sirfstar; 2018-08-14 at 04:55..
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Old 2018-08-14, 11:46   #57
Raklodder
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Default Re: are the devs gonna do PR mod for SQUAD? PR:squad

I much rather just play PR with my friends than a feature incomplete game with a band aid.

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Old 2018-08-14, 17:25   #58
77SiCaRiO77
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Default Re: are the devs gonna do PR mod for SQUAD? PR:squad

Im just hoping that Squad's future medic system be based on hitboxes rather than numbers. Hits to arms and legs should result in different debuffs for the player, bandages should be applied to the affected limb, and no revive from a 20 mm HE to the head.
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Old 2018-08-14, 17:51   #59
Psyko

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Default Re: are the devs gonna do PR mod for SQUAD? PR:squad

Is nobody else concerned that I said Hi to Fuzzhead and he only said Hi back to Afterdune and Rhino?
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Old 2018-08-14, 22:10   #60
fuzzhead
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Default Re: are the devs gonna do PR mod for SQUAD? PR:squad

Quote:
Originally Posted by inb4banned View Post
As an extremely avid infantry player these changes seem good. Buddy revive was badly missing from the game, golden goat medic role is horrible. Rally point spawn waves should make it easier to keep the squad together - this is an issue in PR when people trying to get a better position end up dying and squad never ends up regrouping.

However, I don't think that Squad's infantry gameplay will ever feel anything like PR's after 1.x (whenever strafing speed was increased) unless you make fundamental changes that go against much of what has been established. The main problems are too little acceleration, too slow movement speed, weapons doing too much damage, ticket system, worse sound awareness, infinite view distance and overall map design.

Even if UE4 would be perfect these things make it impossible to mimic the intense firefights PR has - not because there's lack of suppression (new suppression will be terrible for gameplay), but because there's lack of freedom during firefights and every engagement being heavily based on see first - kill first.

I would really appreciate if after 3 years of development the goals would be clearly defined, saying that you're trying to make it more like PR doesn't mean much considering how much PR has changed and how little knowledge about the game the devs I was aware with actually have. I thought it was hilarious when they tried slowing the pace down by literally slowing down the movement by 20%, that achieved nothing at all. I wish you all the best.
movement speeds in squad are not finalized.

I agree that engagements being heavily based on see first - kill first, is not ideal... theres a variety of different ways to tackle this.
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