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18 May 2022, 00:00:00 (PRT)
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Old 2022-01-26, 10:41   #1
Coalz101

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Default Nerf Argentina in terms of Air Superiority

I'm sure every single cas pilot in the game can say the same, Argentina just has the better Anti Air Web over the island. It's literally impossible for British jets to do CAS (Close Air Support) without getting clapped by the many Manually guided AAs across the map. the 3km view distance combined with AAs at opposite ends of the battlefield just gives Argentina too much air superiority when they already have the better jets for dogfighting.

I know war is not suppose to be fair and balanced but come on, it's ridiculous to play CAS as brits on that map.

One suggestion I would make is to remove the Argentine manual guided AA at the G4/5 airfield giving the Brits atleast a chance to fly on their side of the battlefield whilst still limiting the way they should fly on the eastern side of the map. This tracker is a good example of the shit british pilots deal with when trying to remotely fly inside of the map

https://br.hogclangaming.com/tracker...m_cq_64.PRdemo

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Old 2022-01-26, 13:55   #2
[R-DEV]​Rhino
PR:BF2 Developer
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Default Re: Nerf Argentina in terms of Air Superiority

Hi Coalz101, thanks for the feedback.

Firstly when you say "CAS (Close Air Support)", what do you actually mean? The actual definition of CAS is for jets to provide ordinance on enemy targets close to friendly units, in support to those friendly units. However, PR players use of the term "CAS" is often very broad, often used to describe to provide a Combat Air Patrol (CAP), aka "dogfighting" cover over an area and so on.

As for "Argentina having better jets", I would have to disagree there. Although I wouldn't call them worse either, they are simply vastly different from the British Harriers. The Mirage IIIEA is possibly slightly better than the Sea Harrier as not only is it far faster, allowing a good pilot to control the engagement, and it's main AtA missile, The R.530 has a longer range and is more powerful than the AIM-9L, it has a slower turning circle, allowing for harriers to dodge it more easily, and only one is carried by the Mirage, then it's down to the R.550 Magic Missiles are worse than the AIM-9L on basically all counts. But overall, Argentina only has two of these Mirage IIIEAs to the British having 4 Sea Harriers, which also has a faster turnaround time with the carrier being closer to the combat area. Yes Argentina have a few IAI Daggers as well, which are basically the same as the Mirage IIIEA but they only carry the short-range R.550 Magic AtA missiles, with all the other jets Argentina have, only having a cannon as their only AtA weapons (as do the British Harrier GR.3s and the CAS Sea Harriers that spawn at the start of the game), other than the A-4Q Skyhawk which the Skyhawk has similar flight stats to the Harrier but very slightly worse, but the Naval Q version only has a couple of AIM-9Bs, but they are far worse than the Lima version the Brits have of the sidewinder, and are worse than the R.550 Magic missiles even.
More Info: https://www.realitymod.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=143363
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhino View Post

(Click to Enlarge)
Spoiler for PR:F Aircraft Weapons':
Air-to-Air Weapons
AIM-9L Short Range Air-to-Air Missile
Teams: Britian
Ingame Range: 900m (18km r/l)
Exp Damage: 900
Exp Radius: 55m
Matra R.530 Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile
Teams: Argentina
Ingame Range: 1000m (20km r/l)
Exp Damage: 1200
Exp Radius: 60m
Matra R.550 Magic 1 Short Range Air-to-Air Missile
Teams: Argentina
Ingame Range: 750m (13km r/l)
Exp Damage: 900
Exp Radius: 55m
AIM-9B Short Range Air-to-Air Missile
Teams: Argentina
Ingame Range: 500m (5km r/l)
Exp Damage: 700
Exp Radius: 45m
Air-to-Ground Weapons
Note: Atlantic Conveyors HP (for v1.4): 24000

Mk82 500lb Dumb Bomb
Teams: Argentina
Damage vs Ships: 5375 direct hit, 375 near miss
Exp Radius: 135m
Mk82 "Snakeye" 500lb "Retarded" Bomb
Teams: Argentina
Damage vs Ships: 5375 direct hit, 375 near miss
Exp Radius: 135m
Mk17 1000lb Dumb Bomb
Teams: Britian & Argentina
Damage vs Ships: 10750 direct hit, 750 near miss
Exp Radius: 150m
Mk13-18 Paveway II 1000lb LGB Bomb
Teams: Britian
Damage vs Ships: 10750 direct hit, 750 near miss
Exp Radius: 150m
AM39 Exocet Anti-Ship Missile
Teams: Argentina
Damage vs Ships: 22000 direct hit, 0 near miss
Exp Radius: 0m
50mm Rocket Pods (36 / pod)
Teams: Britian
Damage vs Ships: 20
Exp Radius: 16m
70mm Hydra Rocket Pods (7 / pod)
Teams: Argentina
Damage vs Ships: 24
Exp Radius: 25m
20mm Cannon Round
Teams: Argentina
Damage vs Ships: 6.5
Exp Radius: 8m
30mm Cannon Round
Teams: Britian & Argentina
Damage vs Ships: 9.2
Exp Radius: 8m
Anyways basically I wouldn't say either side has a clear advantage in the air, Argentina has the numbers of aircraft but they don't have as many ASF (Air Superiority Fighters) and they also have to travel much further to get into combat. If they coordinate all their forces to hit the Brits at once then yes, they can easily overwhelm the Brits if they wanted to but the Brits can do the same and that takes quite a lot of teamwork. Each jet needs to be flown in the way which makes the best use of its strengths and really at the end of the day, it comes mostly down to who is flying the jets and how they are flown more than anything to who is going to win. I am more than happy to fly either side when I play.


As for your point about Argentina having too much Air Defence, ye I can see how having the Tigercat SAM at Pebble Island (G4) can give Argentina a big advantage if they use them well, will look at that when I come to update the map.


One thing to factor in is once the Type 21 Frigate comes, that will totally change the air balance of this map as that itself will be a mobile Anti-Air platform, as well being a massive target for jets that they will want to try and destroy themselves and I plan on totally changing the air balance of the map to accommodate for that, with historical sympathy too of course. But with it, Argentine will be more focused on CAS jets (ie, ones with Air to Ground weapons) and the Brits will have fewer CAS jets too.

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Last edited by Rhino; 2022-01-27 at 08:36..
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Old 2022-01-26, 22:06   #3
Coalz101

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Default Re: Nerf Argentina in terms of Air Superiority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhino View Post
Hi Coalz101, thanks for the feedback.
Firstly when you say "CAS (Close Air Support)", what do you actually mean? The actual definition of CAS is for jets to provide ordinance on enemy targets close to friendly units, in support to those friendly units. However, PR players use of the term "CAS" is often very broad, often used to describe to provide a Combat Air Patrol (CAP), aka "dogfighting" cover over an area and so on.
I said "(Close Air Support)" to take it in a literal meaning which is suppose to be Air to Ground and not how we PR players refer everything that flies with a gun, bombs or missiles as CAS. I mean I don't do CAS (Air-Ground) on Falklands as Brits to say but judging by the update, No bomb in the game is laser guided other than those controlled by WSOs (2 seater bombers). I can't be to sure as I've only tested it on just the common Multirole jets.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhino View Post
As for "Argentina having better jets", I would have to disagree there. Although I wouldn't call them worse either, they are simply vastly different from the British Harriers. The Mirage IIIEA is possibly slightly better than the Sea Harrier as not only is it far faster, allowing a good pilot to control the engagement, and it's main AtA missile, The R.530 has a longer range and is more powerful than the AIM-9L, it has a slower turning circle, allowing for harriers to dodge it more easily, and only one is carried by the Mirage, then it's down to the R.550 Magic Missiles are worse than the AIM-9L on basically all counts. But overall, Argentina only has two of these Mirage IIIEAs to the British having 4 Sea Harriers, which also has a faster turnaround time with the carrier being closer to the combat area. Yes Argentina have a few IAI Daggers as well, which are basically the same as the Mirage IIIEA but they only carry the short-range R.550 Magic AtA missiles, with all the other jets Argentina have, only having a cannon as their only AtA weapons (as do the British Harrier GR.3s and the CAS Sea Harriers that spawn at the start of the game), other than the A-4Q Skyhawk which the Skyhawk has similar flight stats to the Harrier but very slightly worse, but the Naval Q version only has a couple of AIM-9Bs, but they are far worse than the Lima version the Brits have of the sidewinder, and are worse than the R.550 Magic missiles even.
That's exactly why Argentina has better jets, because all their ASFs have long range AA that will delete any harrier it locks on to. Taking into consideration the distance long range AA is fired from, the harrier has no chance to out turn it.

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Old 2022-01-26, 23:39   #4
dcm
Default Re: Nerf Argentina in terms of Air Superiority

Coalz you talking about that game last night? Yeah I agree it was kinda unfair to the brits. Our argie jets were blowing your jets outta the sky, with assistance from our AA. I believe both cas squads were nearly evenly matched in terms of ability. I dont play cas nor falklands much, if at all. So I can not provide honest feedback on what should be done to improve that map.
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Old 2022-01-27, 08:28   #5
[R-DEV]​Rhino
PR:BF2 Developer
Supporting Member

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Default Re: Nerf Argentina in terms of Air Superiority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coalz101 View Post
I said "(Close Air Support)" to take it in a literal meaning which is suppose to be Air to Ground and not how we PR players refer everything that flies with a gun, bombs or missiles as CAS. I mean I don't do CAS (Air-Ground) on Falklands as Brits to say but judging by the update, No bomb in the game is laser guided other than those controlled by WSOs (2 seater bombers). I can't be to sure as I've only tested it on just the common Multirole jets.
Yep, was just checking as like you said, most PR players refer to CAS as as just flying combat jets, as dcm has in the last reply.

That is almost correct on the LGBs, there is only a single Harrier GR.3 (#3 - CAS) that carries two Mk13-18 Paveway II 1000lb LGBs, but this has a 40min delayed spawn as it was only used during the end of the conflict and is very powerful. There aren't any 2 seater jets in PR:Falklands, I think you might be thinking of the Anit-Ship version of the Mirage IIIEA armed with an AM-39 Exocet which is a place holder for the Super Etendard.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Coalz101 View Post
That's exactly why Argentina has better jets, because all their ASFs have long range AA that will delete any harrier it locks on to. Taking into consideration the distance long range AA is fired from, the harrier has no chance to out turn it.
There is only 100m difference between the ingame ranges of the AIM-9L (900m) and R.530 (1000m), which on a head to head engagement will give the Mirage IIIEA only a fraction longer to launch their missile before the Sea Harrier can, and has to then close to 750m to launch its R.550 Magic missiles which it will also need to lock on from scratch since those are IR guided instead of radar-guided like the R.530 (ie, having to switch weapons and start the lock on from scratch), where the Sea Harrier can keep lock on the target if it wants to fire off more than one missile. But most importantly, due to the Mirage IIIEA having a really poor turn rate, it has far less chance to avoid getting hit by any missiles locked onto it, especially the AIM-9L which is super manoeuvrable unlike the R.530 which can't turn very fast. And again while I agree the Mirage IIIEA is overall the better ASF since any good pilot can have total control over any engagement, Argentina only has two of them and a long way back to base to reload and repair.

BTW I quoted all the key weapon stats (other than it lacks missile turn rates, speeds, etc) in that spolier above if that helps.

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Old 2022-01-27, 13:24   #6
ismaelassassin
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Default Re: Nerf Argentina in terms of Air Superiority

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coalz101 View Post
No bomb in the game is laser guided other than those controlled by WSOs (2 seater bombers). I can't be to sure as I've only tested it on just the common Multirole jets.
The Argentines nor the British ever had Laser-guided bombs because there is no Laser Designators in the falklands
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Old 2022-01-27, 13:45   #7
[R-DEV]​Rhino
PR:BF2 Developer
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Default Re: Nerf Argentina in terms of Air Superiority

Quote:
Originally Posted by ismaelassassin View Post
The Argentines nor the British ever had Laser-guided bombs because there is no Laser Designators in the falklands
As I mentioned above, there is a LGB Harrier GR.3, and the Spotter Class has one as only SAS/SBS troops had them during the war and felt it best to give it to the Argie spotter too, even thou they didn't have them, or can guide bombs in, Argie jets can still see the markers on their HUDs.



EDIT: You can see it in this video here from 13:00 to 14:15 with a Paveway being used on Argentine Artiliray: https://youtu.be/UUd3sDVOfsg?t=780

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Last edited by Rhino; 2022-01-27 at 15:15..
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