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Old 2021-06-12, 20:49   #1
Brotherscompany
PR Server License Moderator
Default Defense, the detriment to Teamwork?

I have been thinking about this one for a while for now. Is AREA DEFENSE
(like a flag, village or cache) one of the things that detriments teamwork in PR compared to attacking or holding a specif building like a T-Shape?

Here is my logic: if you are defending unless you have some relationship with your SQ members most likely you arent going to assign them specific positions to cover, you are just going to tell them to defend that location and hope everyone stays around it.
Meanwhile you might have some people starting wandering off a bit out of position, some will end up pushing enemies in case they see them looking for some action that they have been waiting for so long.

In this situation more often than not you cant kinda coordinate and maintain cohesion like if you are all attacking or defending 1 single building, in defending a area it just becomes a bunch of call outs and individual soldiers acting alone.
Think about Insurgency once it comes to Cache defense this one of the things that its seen most of the times people end up getting bored and its just them acting on their own.


I started this discussion mostly because Im bored and had this idea back in my head for a while now, not saying defense is bad or anything just pointing out some things that I have seen repeat themselves over time.

EDIT: ADDED A T IN CANT, GAVE A DIFFERENT IDEIA TO THE ONE I WANTED TO TRANSMIT
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Last edited by Brotherscompany; 2021-06-13 at 18:05.. Reason: Changed Can to Cant
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Old 2021-06-13, 07:01   #2
ismaelassassin
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Default Re: Defense, the detriment to Teamwork?

All these points you’ve mentioned is also exactly why attacking is the superior choice. Defending only works on small areas and when you know where the enemy could come from. If you have to guard 360 you are in the disadvantage
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Old 2021-06-13, 07:39   #3
UncleSmek

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Default Re: Defense, the detriment to Teamwork?

Your lack of map knowledge limits your capacity to see dimensions of defense beyond small buildings or closed structures.

God forbid you actually use the terrain..
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Old 2021-06-13, 17:34   #4
[R-CON]​Frontliner
PR:BF2 Contributor
Project Reality Beta Tester
Default Re: Defense, the detriment to Teamwork?

I don't think you're wrong in your analysis per se - especially if you are in charge of a lackluster squad to begin with -, but I wouldn't go as far as seeing it as only detrimental to the game experience. Caps that cover an area as opposed to a single bunker or a relatively small, confined area just require a different approach from you, as SL, to tackle it. When in a forest, eg., there is, for one thing, a lot of smaller pieces of cover and/or concealment for you to use, the other is the correct reading of the map and anticipation of enemy manoeuvres to make use of these defensive features before the enemy can use them. And while that applies to defense vs. offense discussion in general, keep in mind that if you can't make use of an area's natural or "anthropian" defenses you can either make your own through emplacements - terrible idea in practise, as far as I'm concerned - or be mobile yourself so the enemy doesn't have a position to zero his forces in on. And additionally, if you think(or know) you can't hold a position with what you've been given, you should always resort to asking a second squad to stick in the area and help with the defense effort.

VTRaptor: but i only stopped for less than 10 secs and that fucking awesome dude put 2 of them
]CIA[ SwampFox: well my definition of glitching is using an enemy kit to kill the enemy
Just_Dave: i have a list about PR players, and they r categorized by their skill
Para: You sir are an arse and not what the game or our community needs.
AlonTavor: Is that a German trying to make me concentrate?
Heavy Death: join PRTA instead - Teamwork is a must there.
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Old 2021-06-14, 01:37   #5
rogdozz
Default Re: Defense, the detriment to Teamwork?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ismaelassassin View Post
All these points you’ve mentioned is also exactly why attacking is the superior choice. Defending only works on small areas and when you know where the enemy could come from. If you have to guard 360 you are in the disadvantage
Nonsense. When defending the enemy has to come to you and get you off the flag, so you can just pick a building or underground area to defend and as long as you can hold it, you hold the flag. You pick your small area
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Old 2021-06-14, 14:33   #6
Cpt.Future
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Default Re: Defense, the detriment to Teamwork?

I agree that it's way easier to keep your squad together when inside a building. Especially because there's often just one staircase that you need to cover to keep the defense from falling apart. And you can assign the more patient players in your squad to hold it, while the ADHD boys can run around inside the building and look out the windows.

When it comes to flags inside a forest without structures, the best way to defend is usually to find a spot where you only have one main direction to worry about. It should be difficult to flank and there should be as much open ground between you and the attacking enemy as possible.
... But if that's not possible, it makes more sense to stay mobile, just like Frontliner already said. In that case you should have some wiggle room to fall back or flank the enemy yourself, because as soon as you've killed the first enemy there will be grenades flying in your direction. Just shoot and scoot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brotherscompany View Post
if you are defending unless you have some relationship with your SQ members most likely you arent going to assign them specific positions to cover, you are just going to tell them to defend that location and hope everyone stays around it.
Meanwhile you might have some people starting wandering off a bit out of position
For me it's the other way around: If you don't know the other players very well, it makes sense to assign them certain positions, but when I'm playing with veteran players I know, I won't micro manage them. It doesn't make sense to force them in a position and not let them adjust to the situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brotherscompany View Post
some will end up pushing enemies in case they see them looking for some action that they have been waiting for so long.
There's nothing you can do about that, except to join a clan and to avoid playing with random people. Chasing kills like that ironically doesn't get you a lot of kills in this game and some players still need to learn that.

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Old 2021-06-14, 15:52   #7
Grump/Gump.45

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Default Re: Defense, the detriment to Teamwork?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpt.Future View Post
I agree that it's way easier to keep your squad together when inside a building.
Come on man.. Do the jingle with me. You can just put your guys in a box and say "stay here" like they are dogs or you can do. "1 man per piece of cover, move cover to cover, stay in view of each other to save each other. Minimum explosive spread of the grenade(you can set this to any weapon spread you want). Camouflage up, police up each others exposure, tell somebody if they are exposed. You want to be in view of each other but invisible to each other.

The unit is a walking booby trap with activated awareness by sight, sound, extrapolation or intuition of the enemies awareness. I program the minds of these bio-mechanical machines we call men how to look around to "Scan aggressively, 3 seconds each direction, shoot any suspicious dot you see peeking, blink one eye at a time, miss no target opportunity". I program their software.

Remember we are all the same without the body, all the same energy. Quick side note, one way i started to practice using this energy physically is look at where somebody else is looking, know what environment exactly looks like around you. See what they see. Try it in game and real life. Have faith and focus, it cannot help you if you cannot believe it or trust the feeling of intuition you get from it. So show yourself you can physically know what they are looking at. If you cant trust the intuition of feeling your enemy going to throw a grenade you cannot use the intuition to save you.

Its not about God or the energy of life we are that it gives punishing you for not believing in it. Its just natural if you dont trust or believe it, those very thoughts and feelings block use of energy. Those thoughts of doubt is negative energy. Since i call the good energy God, guess you can call negative energy the devil, negative waves man, it doesn't want you to believe in God or yourself for who you are which is not the body.

I know i have felt my enemy wanting to throw grenade, hide or advance, lots of options go through their feelings fast clouding the energy you need to feel. But once they commit to their choice you can feel it. When i search for enemy i scared into hiding, I feel he is trying to hide. I feel his fear, pre-fire possible hiding holes i feel their fear and anxiety increase but not in relation to location unless they are right there just out of view. Before the thought comes into your mind in words "I must throw a grenade" what is the feeling of those words in the raw energy? Energy is a language, there probably is an alien race out there that can telepathically communicate strong than i describe here. Maybe this is how we evolve it through our awareness of it. Over generations it could get stronger as it is a energetic electrical signal process traveling through neurotransmitters that evolve themselves over generations.

Negative energy doesn't want you to use this stuff in the life of the body, where it can possess the body as who you are possessing your body. If you dont know who you are without the body then "demons", negative energy or the thought of them will make you scared. But if you know you are also energy, stronger than them you cannot be scared. Its why there is so much evil in the world, thats why it happens. Trauma, intoxicating substances, other people afflicted by negative energy not being good to others weakens the mind for negative energy to take over and is the challenge.

Its all feels and happens in physical at first, but awareness of the energy we are allows you to use it. If you see in your mind the image friendly is looking at when you look at which way they are looking, you doing it right. Now you must look away from them and trust you are still seeing what they look at even if picture not clear tree for tree. I have had enemies flash before my mind.

Then you just look away from them and know where they are looking still as they scan around, im to the point I see a flash of the enemy they see. We are bio-mechanical machines, like computers and are interconnected by this energy that gives us life communicating through language, body and energy. Body is the hardware, energy is the software. Im to the point where my closest PR friends i have bonded with, i hear gunshots and know that my one close friend out of 7 squad members is the one being shot at because of this practice.

FREEZE means grab cover, camouflage, dont move, dont make any footsteps or futz around with gear. Listen for footsteps outside the position and approximately how many footsteps you hear.

In urban settings with buildings its the same without camouflage, but there are urban camouflage methods like Sbeneh trash on ground you can hide body in, shooting under vehicles/trailers/loop holes/beds. In urban setting its Omaha concept of having too many boats or men to shoot to keep everyone alive. Its like when periodical cicadas come out, survival by overwhelming numbers to kill. This is why attacking with a single squad wont work unless cap is done stealthily avoiding contact. Many times you can just outcap enemies without fighting them then kill them once its neutral or capped, avoiding combat keeps men alive to have more numbers than them. Kill only a few as needed or as easy as they come with minimal shooting. It gets outnumbered quickly otherwise and the numbers you have dictates the stance you must take. Low numbers is guerilla warfare, hit and run.

But not on a beach, its in view of each other using bullets where there is no cover to back enemy off with pre-fire, suppression and other methods. This is the "random" shooting you see in combat footage. Its shooting something suspicious that looks like its human peeking over cover to aim, shooting sound of enemy gunshot location, bush rustling, dust kick up. Its like when periodical cicadas come out, survival by overwhelming numbers to kill.

I give so much orders that work together, its basically describing instructions how you would need to teach civilians the discipline of surviving. A building in the end everyone is cornered and some low angles cant be seen at all, other angles put you at great risk. Its like the arcade game whack-a-mole, where the mole pops out of the hole when you are in a building. Every interior piece of the building can be hit with explosive. I hate buildings, if we had 100% destructible environments you would too.
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Last edited by Grump/Gump.45; 2021-06-14 at 15:59..
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Old 2021-06-14, 16:00   #8
[R-CON]​Frontliner
PR:BF2 Contributor
Project Reality Beta Tester
Default Re: Defense, the detriment to Teamwork?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogdozz View Post
Nonsense. When defending the enemy has to come to you and get you off the flag, so you can just pick a building or underground area to defend and as long as you can hold it, you hold the flag.
That's wrong and since most SLs don't realize it I'll have to ask to indulge me for a second here:
The moment the opposition outnumbers you in "alive" players in the capzone, the flag push starts.
It doesn't matter if you have a superior position.
It doesn't matter if you can nurse back your fallen safely.
It doesn't matter if the enemy cannot push you out of that little "impenetrable" corner you've put yourself in.

Wanna make a wager how often I've known - by just looking at our half-dead defending squad - that the enemy was getting the upper hand in the cap game? How often do you think the Def SL was completely silent in SL comms and our team's notification of an enemy assault was the game's voice-over announcer notifying the team of the flag being neutral'd?

Edit: Gump, don't do my man CptFuture dirty like that, he's better at this game than you even after getting shitfaced at the local titty bar.

VTRaptor: but i only stopped for less than 10 secs and that fucking awesome dude put 2 of them
]CIA[ SwampFox: well my definition of glitching is using an enemy kit to kill the enemy
Just_Dave: i have a list about PR players, and they r categorized by their skill
Para: You sir are an arse and not what the game or our community needs.
AlonTavor: Is that a German trying to make me concentrate?
Heavy Death: join PRTA instead - Teamwork is a must there.
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Old 2021-06-14, 16:34   #9
UncleSmek

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Default Re: Defense, the detriment to Teamwork?

Most buildings in PR is easily countered by a grenadier who knows where to put his grenades. If you are up against good players it doesnt really do much difference cause even if you decide to defend a building you are sitting ducks without counter movements on the outside.

So the best defense is putting 1 squad in a building to hold flag while another one is on the offensive within the defensive flag.

If you only have one squad defending you are better splitting the squad up so half is holding inside while the other is doing counter on the outside.
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Old 2021-06-14, 18:32   #10
LimitJK
Default Re: Defense, the detriment to Teamwork?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frontliner View Post
The moment the opposition outnumbers you in "alive" players in the capzone, the flag push starts.
read the manual bruv

Overall you are right though, even good positions get overwhelmed eventually when your reinforcement (FOB) is cut of and your guys get whittled down by normal inevitable attrition.
The only reason to stick to one building is when its a vastly superior position or the only structure on open ground (eg aircraft bunker on saaremaa).

In area defense of broken up terrain (forest) only veteran squads can spread, as everyone can hold his own and has the necessary situational awareness to react to incursion. this maximises the angles to engage enemies from at the cost of resilience.
Average squads are better off sticking together on key terrain or slowly roaming as a blob through the cap.
It should always be priority to destroy enemy attack FOBs and keep yours alive as there is a component of attrition to defense. So briefly venturing out of cap to destroy enemy FOBs can be adviseable, especially if they just deployed (you saw the chopper land/crate drop) to destroy them before they can unfold.

To save manpower the defending squads should be as small as possible but as big as necessary, ideally a small tripwire force in cap and a full squad in the more active role.


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Last edited by LimitJK; 2021-06-14 at 19:03..
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