FAMAS French Rifle (PR versus Real Life)

[Stolt_Yugoslav]

Hi!

Many of us were early proponents of more realistic behaviour rather than forced realistic gameplay. This included an attempt by a guy called F117 (I think, long time ago) to remake the whole mod, in particular recoil/deviation and missile tracking. Other aspects that were contended if I remember correctly are things like the attempts to remove any self defense from the pilot to limit team killing for assets (later reverted), the removal of (many) civilian cars and the ability for people to hijack each others light vehicles, the expansion of "death zones" to protect spawns (making the fixed assets like AAA and AT nearly useless), stuff like this.


Sadly we were the minority and didn't have the platform.

Today what you have is a game with highly fidgety and artificial mechanics that forces a realistic approach to fighting. Many of us were banned for long periods of time and these type of discussions would be closed by moderators.

Sadly part of the reason why these two sides never could come to an agreement in the most important aspects is not so much the fault of either side but to the limitations of the engine and what could be simulated, including difficulties to simulate increased heartbeat situations.

[Valmont]

Originally Posted by Stolt_Yugoslav

Hi!
Sadly part of the reason why these two sides never could come to an agreement in the most important aspects is not so much the fault of either side but to the limitations of the engine and what could be simulated, including difficulties to simulate increased heartbeat situations.

I do believe the devs explained that even if they wanted a better recoil/deviation system the majority of the player base, who are all veterans and super used to the standard values, would simply reject. That has already happened in some of the previous patches.

I also agree that PR in its current lifespan is not up to a full revamp of any of its systems but small tweaks to some weapons here and there is on par to what each progressive patch brings anyway.

There will always be somethings to improve and we can all help doing it one weapon at a time.

This time we found out that the FAMAS' higher RPM could be the reason why it feels worst when shooting in FULL AUTO versus other Bullpups of the same caliber. (RPM values to be confirmed by the devs).

General consensus among the people who showed interest in the subject suggests that many do believe the FAMAS handling should be slightly better. (Not laser accurate of course).

[Stolt_Yugoslav]

All weapons handling should be considerably better with the Famas even more so. But the point is that weapons were never designed around how they handle in cool situations in real life but what gameplay they want to force the playerbase to. And thus any realism aspects of actual gun recoil and control are irrelevant to them. Though for flavour I guess they could (and do) keep them somewhat different so Famas could perhaps be a bit better cause of that.

[[R-CON]​Frontliner]

Originally Posted by Stolt_Yugoslav

And thus any realism aspects of actual gun recoil and control are irrelevant to them. Though for flavour I guess they could (and do) keep them somewhat different so Famas could perhaps be a bit better cause of that.

Again, there is not much we can do. We could introduce sway afaik, but it's only a placebo(meaning the true point of aim will always be centered somewhere on your screen) and the animation cannot be linked to the deviation itself.

Last I checked I've yet to see a game to fully mimic what it would actually be like to have a weapon in your hand, you think ArmA or Squad are anything like the real deal? So the consideration of the team has always been what we would the game itself to be like - in fact, that's the only consideration that should matter, and as such the values are the way they are.

With that said, I personally am of the opinion that we could do an even better approximation of how the weapons should behave given what IRL data is there to support my case but at the end of the day my opinion is just one of many; even if I can present my thoughts and approaches for a redraft better than most.

[Valmont]

Originally Posted by Frontliner

With that said, I personally am of the opinion that we could do an even better approximation of how the weapons should behave given what IRL data is there to support my case but at the end of the day my opinion is just one of many; even if I can present my thoughts and approaches for a redraft better than most.

Totally agree with you Frontliner.

By the way, when you have the time can you please check the Rate of Fire (RPM) of the FAMAS in the tweak files for us? (Even better if you could also give us the RPMs of the competing Bullpups we've been talking about).

[[R-CON]​Frontliner]

Generally speaking most automatic weapons fire at 600 or 900 RPM depending on if the IRL rate is above or below 750 RPM. The Famas does fire at 900 RPM, the other two at 600 RPM.

[Valmont]

Originally Posted by Frontliner

Generally speaking most automatic weapons fire at 600 or 900 RPM depending on if the IRL rate is above or below 750 RPM. The Famas does fire at 900 RPM, the other two at 600 RPM.

Thank you Frontliner.

That would explain why even with the same recoil values as the other 600 RPM bullpups, the 900 RPM FAMAS feels more "uncontrollable" doesn't it?

Matematically, if:
Recoil over time = RPM * Recoil value

Then the FAMAS has almost 2X (closer to 1.7X actually) the amount of recoil over time the other bullpups have

If so, I guess that reducing the Rate of Fire of the FAMAS or even better, reducing its recoil values while maintaining the realistic 900 RPM value, would make the FAMAS finally an even competitor in the FULL AUTO department.

Feels so good when people work together for the betterment of our beloved PR, even if it is only one weapon at the time.

Thanks to all the contributors, this thread was totally worth it =)

Now it is up to the devs if and how they decide to approach the FAMAS in future patches. I wish them godspeed!

PS: France could be back into the action soon baby!

(I still prefer Germany thou)

[Chernobog95]

If it doesn't act as FAMAS then it isn't FAMAS, it is simple as that and behavior that deviates greatly and or complete opposite means its misleading to refer to this rifle as FAMAS if it doesn't act as FAMAS and for people to expect FAMAS. Specially those French players that had experience with it.

Also no recoil does not equate greater accuracy, specifically targeted accuracy like aiming for the head. From reading what is available online and footage too, FAMAS should be treated as assault rifle that is for suppression and fire in general direction.

Is there in game differences between weapons in terms of when they start firing ie firing delay when pressing the fire button? If so then we can imitate the pull of each gun.

[Valmont]

Originally Posted by Chernobog95

If it doesn't act as FAMAS then it isn't FAMAS, it is simple as that and behavior that deviates greatly and or complete opposite means its misleading to refer to this rifle as FAMAS if it doesn't act as FAMAS and for people to expect FAMAS. Specially those French players that had experience with it.

Well Cherno, while I do agree that weapons can still be tweaked to be better portrayed in PR you also have to understand that making weapons act exactly like their real counterparts in video games is quite hard.

I won't say it is impossible because nothing is impossible but the technology back in 2005 was certainly not equipped to do so and the devs have done their best, some times even using work arounds and deviating from reality a bit to create a real life like sense of danger and the importance of teamwork.

Now the FAMAS in PR does look amazingly close to the real life FAMAS and as it turns out the behavior problem could be due to a standardization of calibers and type of rifles on which category the FAMAS fell while the PR team was deciding how each weapon would/should behave. (it seems like the RPM of the rifle was not being considered when they gave the FAMAS its bullpup recoil values. That could be due to an honest mistake or a balancing act, perhaps the french had other asset going that was too good?).

Of course it is not perfect currently but the devs have shown here their transparency and willingness to receive honest well intended feedback that is backed by solid evidence and a good attitude.

Remember that PR is ultimately a game and the devs are doing this out of passion and their free time so don't take it too seriously.

You can do what I did, every time I would play in the french forces I would go AR and avoid the FAMAS as much as possible or hey, just play another faction.

[X-Alt]

Copypaste the AR-15 variants recoil pattern onto to all the other 900rpm guns and problem solved