project reality header
Go Back   Project Reality Forums > PR:BF2 Mini-Mods > PR:WWII General Discussion
19 Feb 2020, 00:00:00 (PRT)
Register Developer Blogs Project Reality Members List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
PR:WWII General Discussion General discussion of the Project Reality WWII modification.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 2017-05-21, 18:29   #1
Frontliner
Project Reality Beta Tester
Default Proposing Loadout changes compared to the Beta

Warning: Wall of Text

Hello WW2 fans,

I don't know how long it's going to take until the next iteration of the PRWW2 Minimod makes its way into the game, however I still want to talk about the kit loadouts before the next release. I made a post back in the day( https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f55...thread-16.html ) during the Beta but it's been so long I would like to re-iterate and go more in-depth than I previously did now that damage changes and other things have come to the mod. I decided on making this its own topic rather than putting it in the suggestion thread because this is one long ass post and I would like it to be seen. :P Additionally I want to talk about how I personally would construct the new loadouts with respect to facts and figures while maintaining a certain balance, but first I'll go over the gripes I had with the Beta so you can get my point of view on the matter and why things ought to be changed for the next release.


What's wrong with the Beta loadouts?

Both team's loadouts had the possibility for a squad to overequip themselves with fully automatic firearms(up to 5 out of 6). Given that both in WW2 and especially in backwater Normandy(remember, the Germans thought the Allies would attack elsewhere) fully automatic firearms were a rarity, the current kit loadouts are more reminiscent of arcade shooters ála Call of Duty and Day of Defeat. The problem is here that compared to these PR makes it harder to operate semi autos and bolt action rifles effectively, not to mention that their selling point is ordinarily their accuracy, but without a scope the accuracy beyond 50 meters drops considerably and most fights happen in close proximity to each other, Omaha being the exception. This makes it much more valuable to have an SMG in contrast to the arcade shooters I mentioned.
Of course it is totally fine that a sub machine gun or MG makes mincemeat out of a plain old rifleman at that range, the problem is that both just had way too many of those available, totally disregarding the fact mentioned above.
The availability further played into the German hands in unrealistic fashion due to the BAR simply not being good enough to do anything against MG34 or MG42, and certainly not against the two of those combined - even if a second person grabbed the GPMG kit to get another BAR. Hedgerow fighting is admittedly messy and favours the attacker, but on that range you don't need to be deviated against your opposition because of your insane ROF and ammo capacity when going up against semiautos at 8 or 15 rounds.

The second biggest gripe I had is how readily available the StG 44 was for the Germans. As if it wasn't bad enough having to go up against 2 proper MGs and up to two MP40s, the Germans also had an(or should I say "the"?) assault rifle available for every squad leader. Meaning up to 10 players out of 50(1 in 5) had it in their hands, a ratio that was only accomplished I would imagine at the bitter end in April 1945 when most Germans had surrendered their arms anyways. The StG is the only piece of equipment next to the MGs which I think can go up against modern small arms without looking like a joke(at least I like to use the pick up kit in INS), and the Beta proved that to be the case over and over again.
To sum this whole topic up, allow me to put it this way: Handing out automatic firearms in WW2 is like giving spice to a soup: The correct amount gives you an unmatched flavour, but if you use to much it'll leave a bad taste in your mouth.


How do we address this?

First of all, we need to strip the automatics from every kit bar Officer and Machine Gunner. These kits can be found in virtually every squad and having them alone in a squad would bring us close enough to the actual ratio of automatics v non-automatics for the early stages of the war.


Then, what should the figures for Normandy be?

The figures for the Normandy forces are a bit wonky and depending on the units portrayed and whether or not you want to believe the accuracy of the German equipment tables for these units you can end up with a wide spread of possible configurations(I consulted FH's Ts4EVER for this, I hope I remember everything correctly): from all 9-man StG 44 Sturm squads(in Panzer Lehr) to 8-man FJ squads with 2 MG42s and 2 MP40s to finally defense squads at the beaches, sometimes comprised of captured Russian, Ukrainian and other nations' soldiers only fighting with captured sub-par equipment or older German one, the spread is wide and so is the devastation a single squad can cause.

One way to look at the ratio of weaponry in the grand scheme of things is perhaps the KAN(Kriegsausruestungsnachweis), the war time equipment listing of the infantry divisions. Though later revised to account for the numerous equipment changes, the KAN lists 13k Kar98ks, around 400 MP40s and MG34s each, as well 3.600 pistols among other equipment that isn't necessary for our needs. What's interesting is the relatively high amount of pistols, not only outfitting Officers, NCOs, Squad Leaders and MGs, but also some regular rifleman as well. This gives us a lot of opportunities for new Rifleman types that are more proficient in combat than the standard one, but not nearly on the same level as an MP40 or StG 44 would be.


What can we do to avoid spoiling the soup that is PRWW2?

Perhaps most differently from modern day PR is the average rifleman back in the day and his personal equipment. Instead of having one rifleman class that has all that is necessary, we can add more. One that has three grenades for example as opposed to two*. Another one that sports a bundle grenade(useful against Light vehicles and more devastation). Yet another one that has a pistol for better CQB capabilities. And finally a rifleman that carries ammo(which would reduce mortar spam quite a bit). Under these conditions it is possible to outfit your squad more individually while increasing the firepower of a soldier in a certain area, without breaking the game's balance and overequipping the teams with fully automatic firearms.

*From the exchange I had with Ts4EVER(not verbatim):
"How many grenades did the average rifleman carry?"
"Just like WW1, the grenade was the main tool for fighting in the Bocage, so every bit of uniform that was suitable to hold a grenade was turned a grenade holder."
-
The reason why I decided to settle on 3 grenades instead of 4, 5 or 6 is the way ammo works in PR. One ammo bag can restore Y(Y=X * 1.5) grenades out of the X amount you spawn with, making Z the total grenades for one person and an ammo bag:
X->Y = Z
1->1=2
2->3=5
3->4=7
4->6=10
5->7=12
6->9=15
As you can see it is very easy to get to an extreme amount of grenades with very little effort and even more extremely with smart ammo bag scavenging. I personally would prefer the German grenade to have less of a killing effect and more suppression(and also a father throw), but I don't know how possible that is.


More riflemen types, ok, but how/where do we get those?

Just like Insurgency, the spawn menu shows most of these at the cost of other kits. The way I look at it this makes special classes harder to obtain and the supply crates more important to keep alive, it could become a valuable side-objective for the opposition to destroy these crates. This also reduces the problem of armour being too easily dispatchable in the current Beta, AT was far too easy to come by and armour in the Beta didn't have quite the menacing presence it should have.
Furthermore(should you have spawned with the wrong kit) we could add another segment to the T radial menu that allows us to select the new, specialised WW2 class loadouts we want without cluttering the modern day loadouts.


Any other significant changes?

According to Ts4EVER the stellv. GrpFr(Second in Command of a Squad) were supposedly to be equipped with MP40s or at least G43s, how often that was the case is of course up there. The question is: Do we create another class for it or do we outfit a Breacher with an MP40 or G43? Again, my worry is that if you don't have a full-size squad it becomes very easy to obtain a ratio of fully automatics that is unhealthy for the game balance-wise so I personally prefer the route of another class(unlocked at 6) to keep the ratio of automatics and semi-autos low by keeping them away from special kits that you need(such as Breacher and LAT).

Something else that ought to be changed are the automatic rifleman and machine gunner classes, at least for the Germans. Having an MG34 at 4 players is a bit too powerful, and having both an MG34 and the possibility to grab an MG42 at 6 players is, again, concerning. I personally would move MG34 and MG42 to the machine gunner class, increase the amount allowed for those(not sure if this can be seperated from the modern times combat! - Should it not be possible the MGs can be found in the Auto Rifle class and the FG42 in the MG class.), and make the auto rifle class reserved for FJ units with their FG42(I'll talk about that in a sec).

Lastly, the role of the StG 44. Unlike the current Beta version it is not a weapon reserved for SLs(or rather the Officer kit), but a weapon carried by one of the riflemen. Due to its power and rarity there are two options we can take to control the amount used on the field: 1) A set amount of pick up kits or 2) yet another class.
I personally prefer the 2) option and the return of the Assault class. This is due to the fact that a squad could potentially grab each and every one of those in main base if it was a pick up kit and because it would be quite the hassle to always having to go back to main and wait until the kit respawns in case you die. By limiting the amount of "class_assault" to 3 or 4 for frontline units we can have a number of these in play without them becoming too prevalent(my main concern with the beta).


You talked about FJ(Fallschirmjaeger) and "frontline units". Why did you do that?

Since we only have two nations fighting I do believe the most variety we can get out of this is to allow for different types of branches to be fielded to give things a unique feel and also pay respects to the diversity in equipment these units received. This also helps us with maps such as Omaha for example, which are very much favouring the Germans; by limiting the special equipment we can more easily ensure an acceptable balance for both teams.


Aha, and what branches should be there?

I currently have in mind Panzergrens, FJs and Rear Echolons for the Germans and US Airbourne and US Army for the US. I'll go over the US forces first because of the limited amount of changes needed.

The main difference between the US branches are the availability of the Carbine compared to the Garand and the M3 Grease Gun(afaik) compared to the Thomspon. The Carbine for the US Army is more of a support weapon, mainly used by supporting soldiers(ammo, medic, radioman, LAT/HAT,), not so much the core infantry(Officer, most Riflemen classes, Breacher, Grenadier). The airbourne however(to my knowledge) used the Carbine on many of the regular fighting troops as well. I forgot to ask Ts4EVER how the Garand/Carbine ratio was for the Airbourne units involved in Normandy but I'm sure there ought to be some info on that somewhere.

I'm not entirely certain but I believe during the Beta the Breacher kits varied from Omaha/Carentan to Merville with Garand/Shotgun compared to M3/M1 Carbine. I believe this is an easy way to differentiate the two branches and make it clear that one is more geared towards close range fighting than the other.

As for the Germans the changes between the Rear Echolon troops and the FJs/PGrens are a bit more noticeable. Let's first go over the former(omitting some equipment here and there - point is the primary weapon):

Rear Echolon Wehrmacht:

Kit Selection menu:
Officer:
MP40 - Kar98k
NCO(6 required, 1 per squad):
G43, Pistol - Kar98k, Pistol
Rifleman:
Kar98k, 2 grenades
Rifleman(4/1):
Kar98k, 3 grenades
Medic:
Kar98k
Rifleman(4/2):
Kar98k, Ammo, 2 grenades

Classes unique to WW2(from a different menu):
Rifleman(4/1):
Kar98k, 1 bundle grenade, 1 grenade
Rifleman(4/2):
Kar98k, Pistol, 2 grenades
Assault(8/1 | 4 available team-wide):
G43 - Kar98k, Pistol

Request kits from regular menu:
HAT:
Pistol, Panzerfaust 100m
Sniper:
Kar98k Scoped, Pistol
AA:
disabled
Spotter:
Kar98k, Binos
Automatic Rifleman:
disabled
Machine Gunner(6/1 | 8 available team-wide):
MG34, Pistol,
Breacher:
Kar98k, Pistol, 2 grenades
Rifleman AP:
Kar98k, Pistol, 2 grenades, S-Mines
Rifleman AT:
Kar98k, Faustpatrone(if we have it), Hafthohlladung(if we have it) - Kar98k, Panzerfaust 60m, 2 grenades
Engineer:
Kar98k
Designated Marksman:
disabled
Grenadier:
Kar98k, 6 HE riflegrenades, 2 AP, - Kar98k, 4 HE riflegrenades, 4 AP,

Fallschirmjaeger:

- Only listing differences to Rear Echolon Wehrmacht -

Assault(8/1 | 2 available team-wide):
StG 44 - G43
Automatic Rifleman(4/1 | 3 available team-wide):
FG42
Machine Gunner:
MG42, Pistol
HAT:
Kar98k, Panzerschreck - Kar98k, Panzerfaust 100m, Hafthohlladung(if we have it), otherwise 2 grenades
LAT:
Kar98k, Panzerfaust 60m, 2 grenades - Kar98k, Panzerfaust 100m

Panzergrenadiere:

- Only listing differences to Rear Echolon Wehrmacht -

NCO(6/1):
MP40 - G43, Pistol
Assault(8/1 | 4 available):
StG 44 - G43, Pistol
Machine Gunner:
MG42, Pistol
HAT:
Kar98k, Panzerschreck - Kar98k, Panzerfaust 100m, Hafthohlladung(if we have it), otherwise 2 grenades
LAT:
Kar98k, Panzerfaust 60m, 2 grenades - Kar98k, Panzerfaust 100m
Breacher:
G43, Pistol, 1 bundle grenade, 2 grenades - Kar98k, Pistol, 1, bundle grenade, 3 grenades

Comparison of the three branches with the most "beefy" looking primary weapon loadout:
Rear:
1x MP40
2x G43
1x MG34
4x Kar98k
4x Pistols

FJs:
1x MP40
1x G43
1x FG42
1x MG42
1x StG 44
3x Kar98k
3x Pistols

PzGrens:
2x MP40
1x G43
1x MG42
1x StG 44
3x Kar98k
4x Pistols

As you can see the PzGrens and FJs receive noticeably more and better equipment. Some of you may be confused by rear line troops not receiving a Panzerschreck, and that's mostly due to the Panzerschreck being a weapon for skilled operators rather than some 2nd rate troops. Don't forget that all Panzerfaust variants are still effective enough against even the Shermans, so do not take them lightly.


US Army:

The US forces benefit a bit from the fact that they have less Rifleman classes, meaning their loadout is compareable to the current one. Still, I want to shift a few classes around.

Kit selection menu:
Officer:
Thompson - Garand
NCO:
Garand, Pistol - Carbine, Pistol
Rifleman:
Garand
Breacher:
Garand - Shotgun
Automatic Rifleman:
BAR
Medic:
Carbine
Rifleman(4/2):
Carbine, Ammo

Unique classes:
Assault(8/1):
Garand, pistol, 3 grenades - Carbine, Pistol, 3 grenades

Request classes:
HAT:
Carbine, Bazooka 2x
Sniper:
scoped Springfield
AA:
disabled
Spotter:
Garand, Binos
Machine Gunner:
.30 cal
LAT:
Garand, Bazooka 1x - Carbine, Bazooka 1x
Rifleman AP:
Garand - Carbine
Engineer:
Carbine
Grenadier:
Garand
Designated Marksman:
disabled


US Airbourne:

- Only listing differences to the US Army-

Officer:
Thompson - Carbine
NCO:
Carbine
Rifleman:
Carbine - Garand
Breacher:
M3 - Carbine
Rifleman:
Carbine, Ammo
Machine Gunner:
BAR
LAT:
Carbine, Bazooka

And, for comparison, the "best" outfits for the US Army and Airbourne troops:

US Army:
1x Thompson
1x BAR
1x .30cal
1x Shotgun and
4x Garand/Carbine
or 5x Garand/Carbine

US Airbourne:
1x Thompson
2x BAR
1x M3
4x Carbine

I do believe the German Elite troops are slightly favoured loadout wise at maximum equipment, but they have a bit of a harder time getting the necessary kits due to their selection screen showing 5 Kar98ks. The US on the other hand can spawn in with almost everything they need and are not limited to 4 squads with perfect equipment(since FG42 and StG are limited). Since AT is harder to come by this should also - theoretically - favour the US, but the amount of assets is up to the mapper.

VTRaptor: but i only stopped for less than 10 secs and that fucking awesome dude put 2 of them
]CIA[ SwampFox: well my definition of glitching is using an enemy kit to kill the enemy
Just_Dave: i have a list about PR players, and they r categorized by their skill
Para: You sir are an arse and not what the game or our community needs.
AlonTavor: Is that a German trying to make me concentrate?
Heavy Death: join PRTA instead - Teamwork is a must there.
Frontliner is offline Reply With Quote
Old 2017-05-21, 18:42   #2
[R-DEV]​camo
PR:BF2 Developer
Supporting Member

camo's Avatar
Default Re: Proposing Loadout changes compared to the Beta

Almost 3 thousand words.


can i get a tl;dr? I'll read the full thing later.

camo is offline Reply With Quote
Old 2017-05-21, 20:11   #3
Frontliner
Project Reality Beta Tester
Default Re: Proposing Loadout changes compared to the Beta

TL;DR is
2 much auto
moar Kar98k 4 balance

VTRaptor: but i only stopped for less than 10 secs and that fucking awesome dude put 2 of them
]CIA[ SwampFox: well my definition of glitching is using an enemy kit to kill the enemy
Just_Dave: i have a list about PR players, and they r categorized by their skill
Para: You sir are an arse and not what the game or our community needs.
AlonTavor: Is that a German trying to make me concentrate?
Heavy Death: join PRTA instead - Teamwork is a must there.
Frontliner is offline Reply With Quote
Old 2017-05-21, 23:17   #4
Rabbit

Rabbit's Avatar
Default Re: Proposing Loadout changes compared to the Beta

Also buff bar.

Rabbit is offline Reply With Quote
Old 2017-05-22, 01:08   #5
[R-CON]​mectus11
PR:BF2 Contributor

mectus11's Avatar
Default Re: Proposing Loadout changes compared to the Beta

Hey someone that cares about the WW2 mod, good stuff.




mectus11 is offline Reply With Quote
Old 2017-05-22, 03:10   #6
FlyingR
Default Re: Proposing Loadout changes compared to the Beta

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabbit View Post
Also buff bar.
Yes please!
FlyingR is offline Reply With Quote
Old 2017-05-22, 04:22   #7
HellRanger2558

HellRanger2558's Avatar
Default Re: Proposing Loadout changes compared to the Beta

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingR View Post
Yes please!
Don't need to there gonna get the 30.cal Also the bar is already nasty

HellRanger2558 is offline Reply With Quote
Old 2017-05-22, 14:12   #8
FlyingR
Default Re: Proposing Loadout changes compared to the Beta

Quote:
Originally Posted by HellRanger2558 View Post
Don't need to there gonna get the 30.cal Also the bar is already nasty
Oh, all right then!

BTW Frontliner, did you take into consideration the new bullet damage system and how it could affect the gameplay? If it affects it at all?
FlyingR is offline Reply With Quote
Old 2017-05-22, 16:02   #9
Rabbit

Rabbit's Avatar
Default Re: Proposing Loadout changes compared to the Beta

Quote:
Originally Posted by HellRanger2558 View Post
Don't need to there gonna get the 30.cal Also the bar is already nasty
I just mean deploy time and reload time, yeah its an MG but its only got 20 rounds.

Rabbit is offline Reply With Quote
Old 2017-05-22, 17:16   #10
Frontliner
Project Reality Beta Tester
Default Re: Proposing Loadout changes compared to the Beta

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingR View Post
Oh, all right then!

BTW Frontliner, did you take into consideration the new bullet damage system and how it could affect the gameplay? If it affects it at all?
I did not take it into consideration yet. Reason for that being
a) the abundance of autos being a more glaring issue to me and until one of the PRWW2 Devs states otherwise it will be
b ) the damage system is not final

My hope is that the WW2 Devs don't use it, ever. Squad cohesion in 1.4 PR is already terrible enough as it is, no need to have 10 one-shot rifles and machine guns. My stance on the subject is a more balanced approach to things, which will trigger some of the more realism-inclined forumers but is nevertheless more healthy for a game that centers around its revive mechanics.

VTRaptor: but i only stopped for less than 10 secs and that fucking awesome dude put 2 of them
]CIA[ SwampFox: well my definition of glitching is using an enemy kit to kill the enemy
Just_Dave: i have a list about PR players, and they r categorized by their skill
Para: You sir are an arse and not what the game or our community needs.
AlonTavor: Is that a German trying to make me concentrate?
Heavy Death: join PRTA instead - Teamwork is a must there.
Frontliner is offline Reply With Quote
Reply


Tags
beta, compared, loadout, proposing
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT. The time now is 20:02.