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Old 2014-03-08, 06:10   #41
Allan Davidson

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Default Re: [Suggestion] New Squad|Kit System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gracler View Post
Also what happens if the crew abandons or get killed and a nearby infantry squad can salvage the vehicle? They would have to sit on there hands until the squad returns to give them a ride. Seems very awkward when they could just drive it home by themselves.
YES, they should sit on their hands and try to survive without managing the vehicle, that's the whole point that make PR a immersive and realistic game, Firesquads are trained to a different purpose that a vehicle crew are, this is no Battlefield 4, only players in Armored Squad can use the pilot/gunner seats. This will beautifully prevent Firesquads to pickup crewman kit and use the asset, when they are in a INF squad.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gracler View Post
Again I have to reference Planetside 2's mechanic which could solve some of this. The driver/owner will automatically be placed in the driver seat when entering his vehicle, and anyone else will be placed in the passenger or gunner seats. The driver/owner is able to permit if he only wants members of his squad to enter or allow anyone to enter. If the driver/owner die or he gets a new vehicle the old vehicle turns free for all. If the driver/owner doesn't use his vehicle for a long duration it turns free for all.
This can be done too, but is something more harder to do, since there must be a permission system that allows the current driver chose his preferences, while other driver may have different preferences.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnight_o9 View Post
A simple script saying only pilots can get on pilot seat or crewmen on crew positions would solve all these problems without specific squads templates.
But will not resolve the problem of INF squads requesting crewman/pilot kit and taking assets that they are not suppose to have because there are already dedicated squads for that assets. We need to simplify the Server Admin job, not making he a session baby-sitter, whom have to keep watching all players to see if they are doing something wrong.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnight_o9 View Post
What about mechanised infantry squads?
Sorry, I meant to say Armored squad, not light APCs that can be used by INF. Mechanised INF should be a different kind of squad than standard INF. Mechanised should be able to have 2 dedicated slots to assets operating seat.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnight_o9 View Post
This was actually to prevent ANYONE to solo vehicles, so with your system, the problem comes back. People can just drive to a position, switch to gunner, shoot, switch back to driver and move... etc...
No, driver is driver, gunner is gunner, they spawn with different permissions and can only access the seat that they are meant to use. This will make the game more strict, I agree, but will to make it more real and organized, since things will happens as they should.


The kit system is a mess. Anyone, in any squad, doing any role, can request an asset kit and use it the way it want, not the way they should. This is no Battlefield. I lost the count of how many times I saw some random guy in a locked Sniper Squad stealing other squads assets from deployment and camping it in a Hill doing a pretty much useless job. No admin was online to kick him...
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Old 2014-03-08, 11:19   #42
Brainlaag

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Default Re: [Suggestion] New Squad|Kit System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnight_o9 View Post
"The Best Is The Enemy Of The Good"

Just like Gracler said, you're thinking out of the box using boxes.
What if amrour guys like to have a recon infantry with them?
What if the CAS prefers to be in the same squad as the choppers for better coordination?
What if the squadleader doesn't want an AT in his squad but an extra rifleman. Your system gives more restrictions than freedom.
-Recon can still communicate to the armor.
-CAS can still communicate with the transport squad. I don't understand why they have to share the same squad when VITAL information should only be shared in a squad that have the same objective and job to do. Besides, the template can be changed to accommodate the BEST possible solution. OFC people can still question that but would you bring a knife to a gunfight even tho it's clearly inferior?
-You are still thinking in BF2's kit system. In my scenario there is only a gear system with different levels or clearance or permission. You can change your equipment accordingly to your task at specified locations. The gear you spawn in with is only the default setup. An example:

Gernadier std equipment: Rifle, 6x mags, 2x frags, 1x smoke, 1x Disposable launcher + additional tools

If you, or your squadleaders wishes, you can dump everything, and pack yourself with 30 pounds of frags and magazines. The difference being here is that ONLY the Grenadier has access to the launcher as special weapon. Otherwise there are no restrictions to what you can carry, or how you choose your setup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnight_o9 View Post
Can you even imagine the chaos in the communications?
If squad one loses its APC and needs an evac with squad 2 APC, bam, one squad trying to ask something to 2 guys in a specific squad while the squadleader has to lead his infantry AND his APC to 2 different positions.
Not sure why this "other squad" has to talk to 2 different people? Or why it should turn into a mess in the first place? It's not like the SL has to babysit people and yes, I had to lead 12+ people squads with an additional vehicle on the 200+ server and in arma. Nothing dramatic, especially when you have system like the one suggested to facilitate your job immensely. The easiest and most rewarding system would be IMO something similar to ACRE. You have different frequencies, or channels you can specify. Like channel 1 being command channel, channel 2 transport, channel 3 armored detachment, channel 4 air support and so forth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnight_o9 View Post
You can't mod the players. Most SLs don't want to deal with an armoured vehicle that can't follow the infantry. They should be independent.
If a crew is unable to meet the requirements set by a SINGLE SL, how do you think they'll perform on their own? I think we both know the answer and have witnessed this often enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnight_o9 View Post
Not even mentioning the amount of work needed for such a little thing, because you need a specific template for every map, every faction, every map layer...
Yes making templates, a huge amount of work, it could last almost as long as making a low poly model /sarcasm

While it would take some work, you have to consider we got no foundation in PR2. Making a squad system similar to BF2's from scratch is no easy job either. Not to mention the amount of pain it would save server administrators from. Take a look at the server feedback section. More than 50% of the posts are arguments about who took what asset first and who made/named his squad properly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnight_o9 View Post
They should be necessary because you don't want to see an APC driver bailing out of his vehicle with a freaking rocket launcher on his shoulder firing at enemy armour and then getting back in his APC. Same for pilots.
While this reply wasn't aimed at me, I'll address the issue nonetheless. Simply said, they can't. Drivers are stuck to their role until they die and swap to a different unmanned role.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gracler View Post
Most of those problems can be solved by making a longer spawn list of kits so you can spawn in as pilot or crewman.
Why do you care so much for kits? They've been a crutch to help cope with BF2's restrictions and limitations but it doesn't make them a good system on an engine they have the capability to do whatever they desire. They've served us well but we should let them rest in peace.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gracler View Post
Also what happens if the crew abandons or get killed and a nearby infantry squad can salvage the vehicle? They would have to sit on there hands until the squad returns to give them a ride. Seems very awkward when they could just drive it home by themselves.
That is the whole point.

*I'm starting from a premise here that vehicles will not have the standard "This many hit points until your vehicles goes Hollywood fireball" but modular damage that enables and facilitates some sort of logistics, while also making salvaging common*

If your vehicle gets knocked out and the crew dies, it's your job as infantry to either security until engineers come by, or dump it at the mercy of the enemy. I see no reason why crewman should wander outside of their vehicle as we can finally have a "turn off engine" function. If they do that anyway, without EXPLICIT order of their SL, they have to be treated like any other players disrupting gameplay. Furthermore they are directly connected to an infantry squad that can scout ahead and warn them. Again, no reason for the crew to leave it's vehicle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnight_o9 View Post
A simple script saying only pilots can get on pilot seat or crewmen on crew positions would solve all these problems without specific squads templates.
Predetermined squads have more benefits than open squads, not only in regards to vehicle positions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnight_o9 View Post
What about mechanised infantry squads?
I'm sorry, I lost track what this reply was for, so I might not answer it properly. Mechanized INF squads have 2-3 slots dedicated to the driver, gunner and commander (unnecessary IMO) to crew the attached vehicle.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnight_o9 View Post
This was actually to prevent ANYONE to solo vehicles, so with your system, the problem comes back. People can just drive to a position, switch to gunner, shoot, switch back to driver and move... etc...
I've already explained this in my first reply to Glacer. THEY CAN'T. The moment you choose to be a driver on your squads template you are only granted access to the driver position of the vehicle class assigned to your squad. A driver can take the vehicle on his own and drive off, yes but he can't do anything more but to either leave the vehicle and go fight on foot, or rot in his driver seat. Same goes for a gunner only being able to crew the gunner position and an SL only being able to be SL and not take crew positions in the vehicle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoisonBill View Post
This works as long as it isn't too linear, there shouldn't only be one type of infantry squad. If there are several different squad slots, based on the team and a specific role that would be nice. Also if the squad-leader could make his own fire team layout.
The templates are only meant as rough shape for squads. The intra-squad structure should be still alterable (as in FT management) by the SL through a separate menu.
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Last edited by Brainlaag; 2014-03-08 at 11:33..
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Old 2014-03-08, 11:33   #43
Gracler

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Default Re: [Suggestion] New Squad|Kit System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allan Davidson View Post
No, driver is driver, gunner is gunner, they spawn with different permissions and can only access the seat that they are meant to use. This will make the game more strict, I agree, but will to make it more real and organized, since things will happens as they should.
I can predict a lot of suicides happening in PR2 so that people can just switch a simple role from gunner to driver if the driver disconnects/crashes or dies

I can also predict the horror when a driver disconnects/crashes in the middle of nowhere making the vehicle completely useless.

And then we have the troll that parks his tanks on the base exit and disconnects making the base useless because no one is qualified or permitted to move it

The driver position should be something every crew member has. If you are a gunner or a commander you can also drive if necessary but you can't switch back to the gunner position if a driver is not present like in BF2.

Now I don't know how it works in the real world, but isn't it true that even in a helicopter like the Apache the gunner can take flight controls if something happens to the flying pilot?. Also what about modern tanks, don't they have the ability to switch the driver controls between driver, commander and gunner if something happens to the driver?

In helicopters with a copilot seat the copilot can obviously take control of the helicopter.
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Old 2014-03-08, 11:37   #44
Brainlaag

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Default Re: [Suggestion] New Squad|Kit System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gracler View Post
I can predict a lot of suicides happening in PR2 so that people can just switch a simple role from gunner to driver if the driver disconnects/crashes or dies

I can also predict the horror when a driver disconnects/crashes in the middle of nowhere making the vehicle completely useless.

And then we have the troll that parks his tanks on the base exit and disconnects making the base useless because no one is qualified or permitted to move it

The driver position should be something every crew member has. If you are a gunner or a commander you can also drive if necessary but you can't switch back to the gunner position if a driver is not present like in BF2.

Now I don't know how it works in the real world, but isn't it true that even in a helicopter like the Apache the gunner can take flight controls if something happens to the flying pilot?. Also what about modern tanks, don't they have the ability to switch the driver controls between driver, commander and gunner if something happens to the driver?

In helicopters with a copilot seat the copilot can obviously take control of the helicopter.
That is true but on one hand you are arguing against this system because of trolls and on the other hand you are questioning the complexity of this system because of trolls. What now? Yes pilots have usually backup systems that allow them to control the aircraft but what would happen in we had this in game (as you said), if a troll comes by?

I'm cool with crewmen being able to take any position in a vehicle, as the SL has still the ability to remove him from the squad and thus from the vehicle directly if he doesn't follow. Again, saving the admins from unnecessary detective job.
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Old 2014-03-08, 11:45   #45
Gracler

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Default Re: [Suggestion] New Squad|Kit System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainlaag View Post
That is true but on one hand you are arguing against this system because of trolls and on the other hand you are questioning the complexity of this system because of trolls. What now? Yes pilots have usually backup systems that allow them to control the aircraft but what would happen in we had this in game (as you said), if a troll comes by?
All these restrictions are to be used to fight trolls and to make everyone play the game like it should be played right? So while fighting the trolls with complexity your limiting the genuine player so yes I'm looking for a middle-ground.

The copilot flight control function could be given by the main pilot or in the absence of a main pilot.
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Old 2014-03-08, 11:48   #46
Brainlaag

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Default Re: [Suggestion] New Squad|Kit System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gracler View Post
All these restrictions are to be used to fight trolls and to make everyone play the game like it should be played right? So while fighting the trolls with complexity your limiting the genuine player so yes I'm looking for a middle-ground.

The copilot function could be given by the main pilot or in the absence of a main pilot.
Now we are getting closer to the core. Thats a good idea.

My previous posts addresses your stated issues, while still retaining a rigid squad structure.
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Old 2014-03-08, 14:28   #47
Allan Davidson

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Default Re: [Suggestion] New Squad|Kit System

@Gracler, I'm not proposing complexity just to prevent people from trolling, I'm proposing a system that I think is better in many ways. Keeping specifics assets seats exclusives to predefined squads, would no only just make squads more organized (since there will not be squads doing multiple tasks when they shouldn't), but it will make squad-fetching easier and faster, if you will do heli trans, just join trans squad and done, no more kit requesting (no more waiting to pickup another kit, no more kit limit reached, no more dying in wrong seats...)

Also, will be easier for Devs to make assets usage linked to squads than a kit system that should have a complex permission system that should work cross-squad, and must have different features for various seats in various different vehicles. Using squads privileges you don't have this problem.
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Old 2014-03-08, 14:59   #48
I-Omer-I
Default Re: [Suggestion] New Squad|Kit System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allan Davidson View Post
@Gracler, I'm not proposing complexity just to prevent people from trolling, I'm proposing a system that I think is better in many ways. Keeping specifics assets seats exclusives to predefined squads, would no only just make squads more organized (since there will not be squads doing multiple tasks when they shouldn't), but it will make squad-fetching easier and faster, if you will do heli trans, just join trans squad and done, no more kit requesting (no more waiting to pickup another kit, no more kit limit reached, no more dying in wrong seats...)
It's very good! Join the squad and do your job, don't deal with change your kit. I like it.
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Old 2014-03-20, 04:24   #49
Cavazos

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Good idea. But,

A kit layout for infantry squads needs to be customizable. So the squad leader can set what kits will be used in the squad. It can't be predefined from a list.

Let the squad leader control the kits.


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Old 2014-03-20, 19:09   #50
Allan Davidson

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Default Re: [Suggestion] New Squad|Kit System

Yes, of course, that's why I said INF squads should be Free.
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