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Old 2009-08-14, 16:09   #81
Nemus
Default Re: Lock-on Missiles (AA & Jets)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestial1 View Post
Good point.

How do lock-notification systems in jets work IRL? Do they start when the missile is launched, or when the AA has locked on, before launching? Perhaps this could also be realistically reflected in-game, if the missiles (or certain missiles) only give off warnings when the missile is fired.
There are 3 kind of notifications.
1) Energy source (radar or lazer).
2) Lock.
3) Launch.

Pilot maybe detects and IR launch but he cant know for sure if it is directed towards him.
Of course if a radar missile is directed by the launch pad he can see the threat from the direction of the pad not the missile.
As for the lock time is fast. But the pilot can break the lock by beaming, jamming etc.

I think that "problem" in PR is not the lock but the missiles.
IRL a missile has big differences.
1) Limited fuel. It has an initial impulse and after that it moves with its kinetic energy wich of course bleeding with hard turns. In PR it doesnt happen.

2) Missile has a lead pursuit intercept course. So "Beam and turn" is an effective counter maneuver. In PR it goes direct to target and beaming does nothing.

If we can somehow make the missiles less affected by flares before launch but more affected by hard turns after launch and give to pilots instant launch warning maybe we will makes pilots more cautius and give them a change to survive if they have the required experience.
But of course nothing is sure untill testing...
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Last edited by Nemus; 2009-08-14 at 18:02..
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Old 2009-08-14, 17:48   #82
Engineer

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Default Re: Lock-on Missiles (AA & Jets)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DankE_SPB View Post
whats up with MANPAD pre-launch setup? for Igla/Strela its about 12-15 seconds, but dont they use coolant for IR seeker in missile? so if you tried to lock but didnt succeed can you "re-use" it, or you need to refill coolant?
I've only seen Igla, but never used one or held one on my shoulder. The portable type I used was set up on the tripod, which of course had its own 'deployment time' of about one minute. But when you had it ready, you really had everything ready. After that it was just acquire target, then fire and forget.
I believe that the missile type is being currently replaced at least in FDF, but is still widely used all around the globe.

Mistral Air Defence Missile System - Army Technology

If I remember correctly, it has been few years you know... You were able to activate and deactivate the seeker as many times you wanted. Only thing you needed to pay attention to was the battery indicator on this 'HUD' if you can call it one. When it ignited, it was time to change the battery. So insted of refill, you will replace the battery with new full one.

You never 'scanned' the sky for targets with seeker on, that would be waste of time and coolant. It doesn't really work because targeting relays mostly on your eyes. There was no box which magically selects you an enemy airplane from the horizon and starts to beep wildly. That information came thru other routes. Though IFF was possible.

It was completely different thing with mounted setups, where you have all the needed equipment for long range target seeking, including networked weapons systems. Only the missile used was the same.

But unlike in PR, these weapons are commonly used for defensive purposes, not as front line anti-air battery. I believe if you would launch one, artillery barrage would be on its way on the place where huge smoketrail left.
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Old 2009-08-14, 18:19   #83
DankE_SPB
Retired PR Developer

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Default Re: Lock-on Missiles (AA & Jets)

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Originally Posted by Engineer View Post
If I remember correctly, it has been few years you know... You were able to activate and deactivate the seeker as many times you wanted. Only thing you needed to pay attention to was the battery indicator on this 'HUD' if you can call it one. When it ignited, it was time to change the battery. So instead of refill, you will replace the battery with new full one.

You never 'scanned' the sky for targets with seeker on, that would be waste of time and coolant. It doesn't really work because targeting relays mostly on your eyes. There was no box which magically selects you an enemy airplane from the horizon and starts to beep wildly. That information came thru other routes. Though IFF was possible.
after digging some info
cool-able seeker was firstly introduced on Strela-3, coolant agent is liquid nitrogen
you can easily identify it, its storaged in black sphere(you can find it on Strela-3 and all Igla's)


this thing is disposable, activated before launch, can be replaced if launch was cancelled
lock signal is sound and light


[R-DEV]Z-trooper: you damn russian bear spy ;P - WWJND?
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Old 2009-08-14, 18:37   #84
Engineer

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Default Re: Lock-on Missiles (AA & Jets)

Mistral used argon gas, which I believe is quite common coolant and used with Stingers as well.

http://www.army-technology.com/proje.../mistral2.html

You can see the battery hanging below the nose cone. So it's not large piece... Those cool glasses doesn't come with the missile, though...
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Old 2009-08-14, 22:35   #85
Celestial1
Default Re: Lock-on Missiles (AA & Jets)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemus View Post
There are 3 kind of notifications.
1) Energy source (radar or lazer).
2) Lock.
3) Launch.

Pilot maybe detects and IR launch but he cant know for sure if it is directed towards him.
Of course if a radar missile is directed by the launch pad he can see the threat from the direction of the pad not the missile.
As for the lock time is fast. But the pilot can break the lock by beaming, jamming etc.
Maybe, then, if it makes sense, to kind of include these types of warnings. A warning for energy souce detected, a warning that it is a directed lock, and the current signal for a launch.

The pilot would have more chances to know he is in danger of being hit, but the AA's locking could occur much quicker if that is the case IRL.

Quote:
I think that "problem" in PR is not the lock but the missiles.
IRL a missile has big differences.
1) Limited fuel. It has an initial impulse and after that it moves with its kinetic energy wich of course bleeding with hard turns. In PR it doesnt happen.

2) Missile has a lead pursuit intercept course. So "Beam and turn" is an effective counter maneuver. In PR it goes direct to target and beaming does nothing.

If we can somehow make the missiles less affected by flares before launch but more affected by hard turns after launch and give to pilots instant launch warning maybe we will makes pilots more cautius and give them a change to survive if they have the required experience.
If it could be implemented in game well, that would be great. I know that I have tried to out-manuever missiles in game but I have yet to be successful...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Engineer View Post
I've only seen Igla, but never used one or held one on my shoulder. The portable type I used was set up on the tripod, which of course had its own 'deployment time' of about one minute.
Which would kind of like deploying a AA from a firebase. So that would be one of the ones that would have a HUD ingame.

Quote:
You were able to activate and deactivate the seeker as many times you wanted. Only thing you needed to pay attention to was the battery indicator on this 'HUD' if you can call it one. When it ignited, it was time to change the battery. So insted of refill, you will replace the battery with new full one.

You never 'scanned' the sky for targets with seeker on, that would be waste of time and coolant. It doesn't really work because targeting relays mostly on your eyes. There was no box which magically selects you an enemy airplane from the horizon and starts to beep wildly. That information came thru other routes. Though IFF was possible.
So, just for the sake of implementing in game, if the HUD only showed targets that were locked ON, and not the ones that could be 'locked', this would simulate the fact that the AA doesn't just scan targets for you, you actually have to be able to see them to get a reliable lock.

Do you remember how 'fast' locking happened? Was it instantaneous once the seeker was on and the reticle was near the aircraft? Did it take a short moment to actually establish a lock before you could fire?
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Old 2009-08-14, 23:20   #86
Zoddom

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Default Re: Lock-on Missiles (AA & Jets)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestial1 View Post
Maybe, then, if it makes sense, to kind of include these types of warnings. A warning for energy souce detected, a warning that it is a directed lock, and the current signal for a launch.
the problem is, there are no energy sources. there coul donly be a warning when you appear as a target on your enemies hud, not only when he locks you up, if you know what i mean.
ill draw it

as shown below, if you are in scan mode, every target on your hud gets a simple "tracking"-warning. in the second pic, the locked target gets a special lock-warning and in the third one, only the target of the launched missile gets a launch warning, (here drawn in russian version) and the other targets get no tracking warning anymore because the radar beam is concentrated on the locked one.
thats what it could be like if it would (if its not impossible) be simulated in PR.
if you want, i could draw it as mfd-version^^
Attached Thumbnails
Scan0000.jpg  

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Old 2009-08-14, 23:37   #87
Celestial1
Default Re: Lock-on Missiles (AA & Jets)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoddom View Post
as shown below, if you are in scan mode, every target on your hud gets a simple "tracking"-warning. in the second pic, the locked target gets a special lock-warning and in the third one, only the target of the launched missile gets a launch warning, (here drawn in russian version) and the other targets get no tracking warning anymore because the radar beam is concentrated on the locked one.
thats what it could be like if it would (if its not impossible) be simulated in PR.
Well, for one, you would start locking on to a target immediately in PR as of now, if you aimed at an Aircraft.

This would be the 'energy source' and 'locking' stages for a single aircraft; the energy source for other aircraft in the area is not likely to be needed due to the fact that it's not often you encounter two jets of the enemy team in the same area... Helicopters, maybe, but it's still not extremely likely.

A kind of substitute for this would be if the entire locking range of an AA would begin a small warning for the pilot (if the AA has a range of 1500m, then at 1500m from the AA the pilot would get a notification to let him know that he is in range of an Anti-Air device). Of course, to make this not be overpowered to the jet pilot (since he will instantly know he's in range of AA, but they may not see him), the radars could be switched on and off.


This would mean that if an AA wanted to scare pilots out of an area, they could leave radar tracking on, and any jet to come within 1500m will get a warning from their instruments that they are in range of an AA. This could be used to discourage enemy Aircraft from trying to engage your teams tanks, kind of letting them know 'you better not come close, or I'll blast you to bits!'

Or if the AAV is looking to get around sneakily to set up a position to begin denying airspace, he could leave the radar off but still scan the skies for enemy aircraft. If the enemy jet swoops down from the clouds, the AAV gunner could then turn on radar and begin tracking the enemy aircraft, then lock. During this time it would be up to the pilot to leave the area once the radar was activated, or to flare and turn to evade the missle.

And again, as soon as he is ready to simply deny airspace he can turn on the radar to scare pilots from coming near.


The locked signal would remain as it is, so that a pilot has a distinct notification to act now, or be doomed.






Perhaps friendlies would hear the 'energy source' notification, too? So they would need to make sure they know where their friendly AA is, so they know what is giving off the radar signals.

Can MANPADS/AA/AAVs in real life will lock onto friendly aircraft? I would guess that they do, but again I don't know.

(After gathering all this information, I hope to make an in-depth suggestion to kind of cover the most realistic properties of AA/Aircraft, but still trying to keep the right balance between reality and gameplay)
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Old 2009-08-14, 23:46   #88
dominator200
Default Re: Lock-on Missiles (AA & Jets)

I dnt really agree with as I was playing kashan tonite and was aa 8-10 times from ground emplacements and didnt get hit once it hit my flares and as I was in the f16 I was traveling fast enough to dodge them
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Old 2009-08-15, 00:28   #89
Zoddom

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Default Re: Lock-on Missiles (AA & Jets)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestial1 View Post
Well, for one, you would start locking on to a target immediately in PR as of now, if you aimed at an Aircraft.

This would be the 'energy source' and 'locking' stages for a single aircraft; the energy source for other aircraft in the area is not likely to be needed due to the fact that it's not often you encounter two jets of the enemy team in the same area... Helicopters, maybe, but it's still not extremely likely.

A kind of substitute for this would be if the entire locking range of an AA would begin a small warning for the pilot (if the AA has a range of 1500m, then at 1500m from the AA the pilot would get a notification to let him know that he is in range of an Anti-Air device). Of course, to make this not be overpowered to the jet pilot (since he will instantly know he's in range of AA, but they may not see him), the radars could be switched on and off.
....
but it would be more unrealsitic to have the ability to turn radars off in aavs, because irl AAs are pretty useless without it and in addition to prevent enemy aircrafts from entering your area is a main idea of AA (besides the air surveillance, which is actually the main idea). If you would just turn on ur radar to "keep them away" you would risk a sead-strike (..irl, thats why i would say let the radars turned on)

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Old 2009-08-15, 00:37   #90
Sgt.Heine

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Default Re: Lock-on Missiles (AA & Jets)

i say let the piolt know they are being targeted so they have time to react.
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