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Old 07-13-2017, 05:49 AM   #31
Aleon
Default Re: Why is CAS getting nerfed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piipu View Post
As for manpad hit rates, around a year ago all IR seeker missiles were basically useless. We did some testing on a test server with one chopper vs one avenger. If the chopper just popped flares as soon as he heard the lock warning, hit rates with AA missiles were under 5%. I was able to fly leisurely circles around the avenger and if I tried to kill it, I got it every time even though I have very little practice in PR choppers.
Well it turns out you just didn't know how to use AA properly. It's not intuitive, but trying to lock flaring helicopters was never really a good way to survive as AA. I had no problem killing anything flying with an AAV or a even a manpad around that time, and it got even easier since. If you are waiting to get a lock on flaring helicopters with the AAV you deserve to be killed, that's what flares are for. But since PR works with magic missiles, you don't actually have to lock the helicopter. Just spam everything you have in their general direction and they'll redirect/explode on the flares next to the helo. Since drop was introduced on unlocked AA-s this takes a bit of practice to pull off but still works, and no amount of flaring will save a helicopter from a head-on AA spam.

As for jets, they used to be hard to kill due to their speed, but nowadays I seem to be wrecking everyone with a single manpad for whatever reason. The only thing jets can do to avoid AA is fly high and spam a ridiculous amount of flares long after CAS runs to make sure no random missile redirect kills them. I have little trouble surviving as a jet vs ground AA, but I think that's mostly because I fly overcautious and the enemies on the ground don't bother/know how to AA properly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piipu View Post
In addition to that, manpads had some tiny (600m?) lock range that basically meant that you shouldn't even try to use AA, since you'll just be killed by a hovering CAS from 1km.
This was either really really long ago, or it's simply not true. Manpads had view distance lock range for years now. And against helicopters (especially ones that are hovering) you still don't have to lock them.


AA didn't and doesn't suck. Maybe people don't understand how to use it effectively. Saying that AA sucks because majority of the players can't use it, would be the same as saying that jets are weak because only a few people can fly them well. People expect AA to be a magic no-skill-left-click-kill-all-cas device because it has a lock-on feature, and then assume it's broken when that doesn't happen. It's inconsistent, but it has to be, and that's why I'm generally not a fan of the missile type AAs in PR but that's a whole different discussion. As a ground guy, you can get around the inconsistency since most AAVs have 4+ missiles to spam at the incoming air. Projectile based AA also destroys helicopters easily.

Aleon is offline
Last edited by Aleon; 07-13-2017 at 06:03 AM..
Old 07-13-2017, 06:44 AM   #32
fecht_niko
Banned
Default Re: Why is CAS getting nerfed?

Aleon I'm pretty sure you cant kill every CAS with your AAs...

My experience is that AA rockets are just random, they might hit the CAS or the flare or redirect and hit friendly CAS or even fly into main base... Sometimes they just fly into the ground even with lock sound.
Basically its just random luck if you hit or not... And thats bad for pilots and their counter part.

There should be a complete new AA system (I know its a lot of work BUT its way more important than weapons skins)
fecht_niko is offline
Old 07-13-2017, 07:09 AM   #33
Aleon
Default Re: Why is CAS getting nerfed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fecht_niko View Post
Aleon I'm pretty sure you cant kill every CAS with your AAs...
I wouldn't go as far as to say I can kill every cas, but I can kill often enough that it's comparable to HAT-ing armor, or killing anything else in the game. Sure, there is variance, and there is an lot more randomness than in other weapons in PR. But when I'm getting rekt by cas it's because I don't have AA, not because I can't kill the CAS with it. I can recall several occasions from the past month or so where CAS was bothering our squad, I picked up a manpad/stationary AA and left-clicked the enemy CAS with first shot. (I don't play insurgency, so we're talking about AAS, where AA is easy to come by.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by fecht_niko View Post
My experience is that AA rockets are just random, they might hit the CAS or the flare or redirect and hit friendly CAS or even fly into main base... Sometimes they just fly into the ground even with lock sound.
Basically its just random luck if you hit or not... And thats bad for pilots and their counter part.

There should be a complete new AA system (I know its a lot of work BUT its way more important than weapons skins)
With all the above being said, I fully agree with this. Coming up with a solution can be quite tricky due to the PR engine. Currently I think a valid route could be replacing majority of the lock-on missiles by the way more consistent AA guns and manually guided missiles, and buffing CAS speeds and engine-loss rates.

Aleon is offline
Old 07-13-2017, 12:17 PM   #34
QuickLoad
Default Re: Why is CAS getting nerfed?

the way I see AA as an infantry SL main is just deterrance, not supposed to actually make kills.

i leave the kills to dogfighters or if the enemy air overextends itself, otherwise the AA is just deterrance.
if I can keep the enemy air away from my men then the AA is doing it's job very well.

kind of see how AA is depicted in a lot of places as random shots flying into the air(tracer fire into the sky), nothing precise or accurate, just to ward off enemy aircraft and make it a hostile zone.

planetside2 also has a lot of this combined arms gameplay, and AA there also works as simple deterrance.
my flak rounds will blow up and make the pilot REALLY scared and not get close to me, my sunderer, my armor column, and my platoon and my squads, however it won't kill any enemy air unless they overextend themselves.

I think theres a pretty good equalibrium although I wouldn't mind a nerf to AA or a buff to air, because aircraft like helicopters and ospreys can get locked, flare, and still get hit even if they attempt to manuever out just because of how damn accurate missiles are.

tldr: AA is doing it's job.. but maybe too well.
edit: however when I set up a superfob the AA emplacement usually scores an aircraft 3 times out of 4 per volley.
QuickLoad is offline
Old 07-13-2017, 03:10 PM   #35
viirusiiseli
Banned
Default Re: Why is CAS getting nerfed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frontliner View Post
Public service announcement so that everybody knows who's claming now that AA is way too good and 2 years ago it was much better:
Quote the part about me saying it was better 2 years ago? I never said that, thats some other person in the thread. I have been talking about pre-1.0. Go through all my posts and read them. Don't lie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frontliner View Post
Viirus' deaths in PRT C11 using CAS jets(unless I'm mistaken he only participated in the last two matches; Black Gold and Khamisiyah):
Deaths due to Ground AA of any kind: 0
Deaths due to opposing CAS: 1
Deaths due to CTD: 3(one on Black Gold, the other two on Khami? iirc)
More like 3 CTD, 1 crash into a tree due to lag, and 1 to AAV, 1/2 to CAS. Stop lying. And if it isn't obvious enough to you already, how can one die to ground AA if they're dead all round due to CTD on first or second run? Think, frontliner, think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frontliner View Post
I don't quite remember the number, but I do believe that combined with the other jet flown by DonDoom and DesertFox you killed something in the realm of 20-25 assets, numerous FOBs and a lone sniper(hi Soban <3).
20-25 assets? lmao no, with the amount I was dying to CTDs I dont think so

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frontliner View Post
So what are you going to claim now? AA being too good back then? When you asked me to laze virtually everything on the ground? Is that realistic? That you go attack the one thing that's specifically designed to kill you? I mean, surely, in reality you might have to go against your counter measure to ensure the survival of your comrades/archieve the mission, but the core difference is that in reality there's a good chance of you failing and dying, you were talking as if there wasn't a risk and that's exactly reflected in your death statistics and why CAS was nowhere to be seen in C12 last year except for one map.
I asked you to lase everything you saw because unlike other people, I like to make my time in the air worth it. I do that by going for everything I can before I am killed, it is risky and I pay the price very often, but I'll die happy knowing I killed every possible target I had before dying.

Wanna try again with less fake news and assumptions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piipu View Post
Wow cool it down. There's no need to resort to insults, unless you have no other arguments left to use?
...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piipu View Post
around a year ago all IR seeker missiles were basically useless. We did some testing on a test server with one chopper vs one avenger. If the chopper just popped flares as soon as he heard the lock warning, hit rates with AA missiles were under 5%. I was able to fly leisurely circles around the avenger and if I tried to kill it, I got it every time even though I have very little practice in PR choppers.
Picking the time when to fire is everything, if you shoot at difficult spots, of course you will hit less. Just like as infantry if you try shoot at someone who isnt completely visible, you will hit less rounds at him. You don't go crying on the forums about gun deviation or asking for guided bullets, you aim better.

In addition to that, AAs should most of the time be area defense/deterrent rather than magical 1hk on first attempt, just because you don't know how to use it effectively.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piipu View Post
In addition to that, manpads had some tiny (600m?) lock range that basically meant that you shouldn't even try to use AA, since you'll just be killed by a hovering CAS from 1km.
That was 0.98, it was a very good patch. AAs were so useless back then, right guys? I'd still have that over this garbage, though.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Piipu View Post
So the only time you have an easy time shooting down a chopper is when he doesn't have time/brains to pop flares. I'm glad they fixed that issue. I don't see how anyone other than CAS kill farmers could be upset by these changes.
So, what are flares for then in your opinion, if they aren't supposed to be effective countermeasures? Aircraft only have a limited number of flares, they can't stay forever while popping flares. You just need to not fire at a cloud of flares and its too difficult for you? Too difficult to wait until they don't have flares anymore?
viirusiiseli is offline
Last edited by viirusiiseli; 07-13-2017 at 03:22 PM..
Old 07-13-2017, 04:48 PM   #36
Frontliner
Project Reality Beta Tester
Default Re: Why is CAS getting nerfed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by viirusiiseli View Post
Quote the part about me saying it was better 2 years ago? I never said that, thats some other person in the thread. I have been talking about pre-1.0. Go through all my posts and read them. Don't lie.
You said 0.98 once in an unrelated context and that's all you did, so forgive me if I am unable to keep up with every post you've made in the 4 years since 1.0 dropped. All I see is "previously it was better", well are you talking about 0.1, 0.2, 0.4 then? No, you're talking about something more recent, that's called "context". I know you've been bitching about AA supposedly being broken since 1.3, so I counted two and two together.

Quote:
More like 3 CTD, 1 crash into a tree due to lag, and 1 to AAV, 1/2 to CAS. Stop lying. And if it isn't obvious enough to you already, how can one die to ground AA if they're dead all round due to CTD on first or second run? Think, frontliner, think.
From my memory | your claims
AAV deaths: 0 | 1
CAS deaths: 1 | 1-2
CTD deaths: 3 | 3

What I can remember from memory without even seeing the logs is largely the same that you're claiming. I'm lying when you basically say the same? Fuck off.

Oh, and the point was that you lost your jet more often to CTD than to anything else, but hey, must be totally making up those numbers, aight?

Quote:
20-25 assets? lmao no, with the amount I was dying to CTDs I dont think so
"combined". And yes, the rounds were rather long and targets were plentyful.

Quote:
I asked you to lase everything you saw because unlike other people, I like to make my time in the air worth it. I do that by going for everything I can before I am killed, it is risky and I pay the price very often, but I'll die happy knowing I killed every possible target I had before dying.
"I pay the price very often". Not often enough then because otherwise you wouldn't be "Laze the one thing that counters me instead of having me on standby for 5 minutes when the enemy tanks respawn"

Whatever. I can't comment on the 0.98 CAS/Flare behaviour too well, I just know that 1.1 and 1.2 CAS was basically untouchable.

ArkUTD: Do note this issue was resolved by the admin team and mats, thus this was closed
]CIA[ SwampFox: well my definition of glitching is using an enemy kit to kill the enemy
Para: You sir are an arse and not what the game or our community needs.
AlonTavor: Is that a German trying to make me concentrate?
Heavy Death: join PRTA instead - Teamwork is a must there.
Frontliner is offline
Old 07-13-2017, 05:21 PM   #37
viirusiiseli
Banned
Default Re: Why is CAS getting nerfed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frontliner View Post
Fuck off.
Can argue all you want, in the end its all just 2 rounds you're speaking of where there were more CTDs than anything, your point is entirely useless. Also, user infracted for attitude problem please

im very hurt by these mean words
viirusiiseli is offline
Old 07-13-2017, 06:05 PM   #38
Piipu

Piipu's Avatar
Default Re: Why is CAS getting nerfed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by viirusiiseli View Post
Also, user infracted for attitude problem please.
I don't really see anyone apart from you having attitude issues here. It seems you can't go a single post without resorting to an ad hominem attack. Everyone else is trying to give constructive feedback while you change people's posts to vulgarity in your quotes. Maybe you'd be happier in life if you could calm down a little.


MY STRONG PC SPECTS
Piipu is offline
Old 07-13-2017, 06:43 PM   #39
Allahu Akbar
Default Re: Why is CAS getting nerfed?

If CAS gets nerfed then respawn timer can also be reduced; so as to avoid one "mistake"(either actual mistake or mistake of the team to allow idiots to be pilot) costing team too much firepower.

if I remembered correctly, AA that used to fly straight(so you could land a hit without risking lockon to flares if you lead well enough) now have drops or something when not locked so missiles are entirely at mercy of randomness one way or another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by viirusiiseli View Post
Aircraft only have a limited number of flares, they can't stay forever while popping flares. You just need to not fire at a cloud of flares and its too difficult for you? Too difficult to wait until they don't have flares anymore?
Assuming aircraft would still need to make a run at enemy when out of flares?

Aircraft and AAV...etc. also have limited number of ammunition.

If you're waiting until aircraft run out of flares(probably also bombs/missiles unless it's been pooping out flares 100% of time it's flying) then your AA has failed its job in first place.
Allahu Akbar is offline
Last edited by Allahu Akbar; 07-13-2017 at 06:55 PM..
Old 07-14-2017, 12:17 AM   #40
Frontliner
Project Reality Beta Tester
Default Re: Why is CAS getting nerfed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by viirusiiseli View Post
Can argue all you want, in the end its all just 2 rounds you're speaking of where there were more CTDs than anything
Which is exactly what I said. So where is the lie you're accusing me of, Viirus?

ArkUTD: Do note this issue was resolved by the admin team and mats, thus this was closed
]CIA[ SwampFox: well my definition of glitching is using an enemy kit to kill the enemy
Para: You sir are an arse and not what the game or our community needs.
AlonTavor: Is that a German trying to make me concentrate?
Heavy Death: join PRTA instead - Teamwork is a must there.
Frontliner is offline
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