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18 Aug 2019, 00:00:00 (PRT)
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PR:BF2 General Discussion General discussion of the Project Reality: BF2 modification.

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Old 2019-06-23, 18:33   #11
SemlerPDX
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Default Re: Aircraft - Keyboard/Mouse

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Originally Posted by DogACTUAL View Post
To be frank, i really think assigning spacebar to pitch up and not assigning any other keys for roll and the like is a pleb tier setup.

Your end up being slightly confused by constantly having to control steering with 2 hands and on seperate input devices, even if you are used to it i argue you will still be at a disadvantage to someone using more streamlined controls, because they are more 'natural' and will allow for faster and more precise input. Meanwhile with arrow keys all the steering control is right there which allows for better overall control.

Pitch forward is also really useful to have and a good pilot will want to use it as well frequently, with arrow keys the control scheme just makes more sense, all the major controls in one place. Roll is also much more important than the space bar crowd give it credit for, in a usual PR dogfight you are not only trying to outturn the other jet but also outroll it in most cases, therefore having dedicated keys for rolling is important to guarentee you the fastest uninterrupted roll rate.

U sure that dude that posted that back in January of 2017, two and a half years ago, didn't have a point about having a quick "pull-up" command on spacebar? Like you're replying to someone trying to suggest something useful to you but waaaaaaaaayy too late?

Can't imagine what he proposed being at all not useful... but assuming he meant to "not" assign any other controls is likely incorrect.

The method he suggests is one that was popular in Planetside for mouse/keyboard flying -- to have an additional "pull-up" command on another mouse button or keyboard (if you don't have a gaming mouse). The mouse still controls pitch up/down, and roll left/right, but you have a straight one push constant pull up *(and even pitch down, yaw left/right, if you have enough mouse buttons).

It's a good suggestion for mouse/keyboard flying!

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Last edited by SemlerPDX; 2019-06-23 at 18:41.. Reason: (new page, added quote)
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Old 2019-06-23, 23:11   #12
DogACTUAL

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Default Re: Aircraft - Keyboard/Mouse

I replied late because i linked a friend my older post in this thread as a setup guide for jet CAS. On that occasion i had a look at the replies that came after my post and just wanted to share my opinion that people would be better off overall to adopt my control scheme in favour of the other one, since some people that google 'project reality cas controls' are bound to find this thread and use it as a guide.
Quote:
Can't imagine what he proposed being at all not useful... but assuming he meant to "not" assign any other controls is likely incorrect.
It's not that it is not useful, it is just that the benefits of the arrow key control layout far outweigh those of the spacebar for pull-up only. The only advantage of the spacebar layout that i can think of is that with arrow key layout there is a bigger delay when switching from mouse to arrow keys and vice versa than if you were to just press spacebar with your thumb while still having the other hand on your mouse, but this advantage does not come in handy very often.

Most situations favour arrow key control.

Maybe someone can try to combine both control setups, but iirc it is not possible since you can only assign two input keys/axis per control function.

About planetside, i can't speak on that since i never played it. But how is that game even relevant here? I am talking about what works best with PR jets, obviously every game will be different in its portrayal of aircraft, flight models and controls. So of course i wouldn't imply that this control scheme is perfect for every game with aircraft out there? Why did u even bring up planetside, it is really irrelevant to this matter.

Not only did the DEVs totally throw off the CAS/AA balance and make TOWs useless against tanks, no that was not enough. They also had to introduce their most controversial change yet, a 16 character limit on player names.
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''Mats literally does not give a single fuck what you, me or everybody else thinks the game should be like. He doesn't care if you, me or everybody else plays the game even.'' - Frontliner
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Last edited by DogACTUAL; 2019-06-23 at 23:30..
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Old 2019-06-24, 10:24   #13
CAS_ual_TY
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Default Re: Aircraft - Keyboard/Mouse

Thats kinda what Im doing.

Pitch and Roll with mouse
Pitch and Yaw with keyboard

In a dogfight, I use spacebae to keep pulling up.
When bombing, I only use the mouse for Pitch for more accurate bombing, sometimes I additionally fix Yaw with A & D.

Just gotta make sure that spacebae is the primary key, mouse the secondary. Otherwise you override your Pitch when Rolling with the mouse.

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Old 2019-06-24, 19:28   #14
SemlerPDX
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Default Re: Aircraft - Keyboard/Mouse

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Originally Posted by DogACTUAL View Post
Maybe someone can try to combine both control setups, but iirc it is not possible since you can only assign two input keys/axis per control function.
Where there is a will, there is a way. May be able to only assign two keys/axes in-game, but in Windows, those could be assigned to any number of actual physical buttons on controllers, like Mouse Buttons in addition to left/right/middle click, etc. depending on hardware, you could use native things like Logitech's software, or Razer's, or barring that, external utilities like vJoy.

If one wanted to do that, they could, and a google search or two on the subject would point someone to those concepts (vJoy, etc.).

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Originally Posted by DogACTUAL View Post
About planetside, i can't speak on that since i never played it. But how is that game even relevant here?
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Why did u even bring up planetside, it is really irrelevant to this matter.
You started off great, asking a question, then you assumed I was so wrong with a declarative statement, since you didn't end asking "is it really relevant to this matter" with a question mark, and I'll just say it's not best to assume something if you don't know.

The entire aircraft, flight method, and even physics are completely different for the "hovercraft" in Planetside 2 -- they do fly like jets, but if you let go, they just stop in air, can point up or down, left or right (yaw), but again, travelling forward at speed, they fly like and dogfight like jets.

Now, being that flying with Keyboard/Mouse in aircraft is common between most games (same pitch/roll/yaw axes) you can ascertain that certain flight methods are the same. For example, to change flight heading from 090 to 180, you don't "turn" by using yaw, you roll and then pull up.

Pulling up with a mouse, even with very high DPI, can result in having to pick up the mouse and put it back down as you run out of desk to move the mouse on. Pulling up is therefore one of the most used of all the axes in flight games, if they fly similar to jets. And in Planetside 2, they do.

By adding a button to the "pull up" axis as stated before, you can therefore reduce the number of times you physically have to pick up your mouse as you run out of desk space in long turning dogfights. As proper flight maneuvers and especially dogfights often can result in a battle of turns, "roll and then pull up" as described before, this button can give a decided edge in PR, or any flight game where mouse and keyboard are the only controls you want to be using.

Personally, I use either an X52 or Thrustmaster USB Joystick if only for the analogue throttle option that makes hovering with helicopters easy, but I'm still an old school Keyboard/Mouse pro and that tip was a pro tip he suggested. Just sayin.

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Old 2019-06-24, 19:59   #15
DogACTUAL

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Default Re: Aircraft - Keyboard/Mouse

Ok thanks for clarifying, also didn't know about that 3rd party software to assign further controls.
Quote:
You started off great, asking a question, then you assumed I was so wrong with a declarative statement, since you didn't end asking "is it really relevant to this matter" with a question mark, and I'll just say it's not best to assume something if you don't know.
Okay fair enough, that was arrogant of me.
Quote:
Now, being that flying with Keyboard/Mouse in aircraft is common between most games (same pitch/roll/yaw axes) you can ascertain that certain flight methods are the same. For example, to change flight heading from 090 to 180, you don't "turn" by using yaw, you roll and then pull up.
What i was getting at is that every game has different mechanics so just because something works in one game doesn't mean it will also work well in others.
While basic flight controls are the same across most games for aircraft, depending on the flight model it might not be wise to always pitch with full deflection/force, especially with more detailed/realistic flight models, for such a game a flight stick would be the better option instead of keyboard controls.

For PR you always want to pull with full force, so it makes sense to assign keys that do that automatically.
So my point was that other games are irrelevant here, since i was only advertising my controls as being the best for PR and not any other game.

Not only did the DEVs totally throw off the CAS/AA balance and make TOWs useless against tanks, no that was not enough. They also had to introduce their most controversial change yet, a 16 character limit on player names.
------------------
''Mats literally does not give a single fuck what you, me or everybody else thinks the game should be like. He doesn't care if you, me or everybody else plays the game even.'' - Frontliner
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Old 2019-06-24, 21:59   #16
SemlerPDX
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Default Re: Aircraft - Keyboard/Mouse

Quote:
Originally Posted by DogACTUAL View Post
What i was getting at is that every game has different mechanics so just because something works in one game doesn't mean it will also work well in others.
While basic flight controls are the same across most games for aircraft, depending on the flight model it might not be wise to always pitch with full deflection/force, especially with more detailed/realistic flight models, for such a game a flight stick would be the better option instead of keyboard controls.

For PR you always want to pull with full force, so it makes sense to assign keys that do that automatically.
So my point was that other games are irrelevant here, since i was only advertising my controls as being the best for PR and not any other game.
I fully understand, bro! You had not know that my reference to Planetside included another bird that wants a full force pull for most maneuvers as stated. And of course, you retain your fine control with the mouse, or alternate controls.

I run a combat flight simulator server called Falcon BMS over at veterans-gaming, and I occasionally train people how to fly a real world equivalent F-16, and if one held a button like this for longer than a second, it would likely tear the armaments off the rails producing hung stores and SMS failures, unless the bird was slick - but even then, like you said, when the reality factor raises in flight games or sims, you get incomparable flight concepts and mechanics between them. Of course, in War Thunder, you can pull up with force and fly overspeed without concern in anything but the realistic or simulator flight matches, otherwise you will literally watch your aircraft tear apart. lol

I wouldn't have suggested such if I wasn't aware of such differences, would have included deeper explanation to start but didn't want to put up a wall of text - certainly didn't want to assume it was common knowledge, just an as example of where Keyboard/Mouse flight benefits when desktop space is limited.

Just wanted to point out that it's a valid pro tip. Pilots would be wise to try the method out for themselves and see what works best for them.

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Old 2019-06-24, 22:49   #17
DogACTUAL

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Default Re: Aircraft - Keyboard/Mouse

Oh nice. What do you think of the upcoming F-16 module for DCS World? How do you think it will compare?

Not only did the DEVs totally throw off the CAS/AA balance and make TOWs useless against tanks, no that was not enough. They also had to introduce their most controversial change yet, a 16 character limit on player names.
------------------
''Mats literally does not give a single fuck what you, me or everybody else thinks the game should be like. He doesn't care if you, me or everybody else plays the game even.'' - Frontliner
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Old 2019-06-25, 01:13   #18
[R-DEV]​Rhino
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Default Re: Aircraft - Keyboard/Mouse

What I don't understand is why any keen pilot wouldn't buy even a basic joystick to fly with...

I can understand that many people don't have the money or space for a full-blown HOTAS setup but one of the basic small and cheap sticks for around £20/$15 do the same basic job, just without all the extra buttons/knobs which you don't really need for a game like PR anyways.

Back in the days of BF1942 (and before even) I used a really basic MS Sidewinder (that in fact I still have it today, although I haven't used it in around 15 yrs now) and it did all the basics you need for a game like BF or PR. Any advanced flight sim and there would be a lot of the keyboard use involved on top of a basic stick. But the basic axis it gives you so much more control over a plane and my Sidewinder didn't even have a rudder, had two buttons for left and right rudder but again, that was totally fine for that kind of game although I would recommend a basic twist rudder for a few extra bucks that most cheap sticks have these days.

But that's just me, I've never gotten the whole flying with mouse thing but probably because I've grown up with flight sticks from the start but I simply find it far more enjoyable and accurate than any alternative when it comes to flying.

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Old 2019-06-25, 03:01   #19
SemlerPDX
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Default Re: Aircraft - Keyboard/Mouse

I'm sure the DCS Falcon module will do well like their other modules, the audience for that aircraft has been stoked and maintained by BMS and other previous iterations in the evolution of Falcon 4 mods.

But in the end, we're talking about a fair bit of time after "release" to finalize development, bug hunt, polish things, fix other things, integrate things that aren't finished.... After that, it will be a quite different answer than after this first release. They don't tend to keep things in-house too long, so I expect a sort-of beta build in disguise, and won't be overly critical at first. BMS has the benefit of home field advantage, with years upon years of tweaking, live testing and feedback, and so will remain the go-to for the pro's for some time regardless of any perceived competition from DCS modules, or even this dynamic campaign they've hinted at. That's the real kicker:

Right now, and at all times, 24/7 for almost ten years, we've run a simulation of a Korean War with thousands of units fighting over a full scale digital representation of Korea. It has been modified so that it lasts about two to three weeks before we restart it to Day 1. What we do affects what comes later - though engineering battalions exist and can slowly repair destroyed bridges or even airbases, it is quite a thing to manage that many units in any non-scripted manner over a map so ridiculously huge, it seems unlikely that anyone will be able to recreate anything to match it, let alone exceed it in scope and functionality.

Time will tell, but for people like me who fly in both games, and several other flight games/sims, too, I won't stop flying in BMS altogether unless what is offered meets or exceeds it more than just graphically.

EDIT FOR FUN- JSTARS 10 second Time Lapse Replay of 25 days of real time AI on AI (with Humans here and there) in Falcon BMS F-16 Combat Flight Simulator:

(each "dot" could be considered between a dozen to a few hundred individual vehicles, part of battalion sized groups)
...

+1 for the MS Sidewinder! Was one of my first sticks, too! Got it for Battlefield 1942 and Desert Combat Mod after a few years of Keyboard/Mouse. Now I'm all HOTAS with magnet mods and custom home-made controllers and stuff.... The rabbit hole sure goes deep!

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Last edited by SemlerPDX; 2019-06-25 at 03:36.. Reason: changed "the Korean War" to "a Korean War" just cuz
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Old 2019-06-25, 03:53   #20
[R-DEV]​Rhino
PR:BF2 Developer
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Default Re: Aircraft - Keyboard/Mouse

Quote:
Originally Posted by SemlerPDX View Post
Right now, and at all times, 24/7 for almost ten years, we've run a simulation of a Korean War with thousands of units fighting over a full scale digital representation of Korea. It has been modified so that it lasts about two to three weeks before we restart it to Day 1. What we do affects what comes later - though engineering battalions exist and can slowly repair destroyed bridges or even airbases, it is quite a thing to manage that many units in any non-scripted manner over a map so ridiculously huge, it seems unlikely that anyone will be able to recreate anything to match it, let alone exceed it in scope and functionality.
That sounds pretty awesome! What I dislike most about DCS is how missions are, for the most part, so limited and on then on the open world ones, feel too scripted and then limited to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SemlerPDX View Post
Now I'm all HOTAS with magnet mods and custom home-made controllers and stuff.... The rabbit hole sure goes deep!
What do you mean by magnet mods? But ye the Flight Sim kit rabbit hole goes really, really deep... I've just finished customising my latest headset with a wireless TrackIR Clip that runs off the headset battery to keep it fully wireless, without any modifications to the headset itself so it wouldn't affect its 3yr warranty which was somewhat tricky. But ye some guys building entire SimPits
https://guppy.home.blog/?fbclid=IwAR...s6bziX3X2U07uk

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