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Old 12-18-2011, 07:05 PM   #1
CAS_117
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Default Review of Rifle/DMR/Sniper Damage

Disclaimer 1: This is not a "bullet x is better than bullet y" thread. Please discuss the advantages/disadvantages of different calibers elsewhere.

Disclaimer 2: I understand that bullets lose velocity (damage) at range. In PR however, the bullets will generally not lose any velocity before exiting the maximum view distance. Assume from here on that I am referring to the maximum damage done.

Disclaimer 3: I understand the importance of shot placement for bullet lethality. This is a discussion regarding the average relationship between bullets on the uniform impact surface found in BF2.

Disclaimer 4: I've attempted my suggestion in PR singleplayer against bots. The result is that anything firing the 7.62x51 will kill in one shot on unarmored targets (or unprotected areas).




Currently in PR, the G-3 and M-14 have more in common with the AK-47 than the M-24!

Haven't been on PR in awhile but I decided to play with the DMR kit the other day and noticed most sniper kits are a one hit kill while the G3 and M-14 take two usually.

I understand that there are dedicated sniper rounds used in this caliber. But this seems unrelated to the actual damage done and more to do with accuracy/energy retention. Numbers are as follows:

762_51_g (MEC G3) = 50

762_51_dmr (M-14, G3SG/1) = 58

762_51_sniper (M24, M40A5, SSG 69) = 80


The problem is that the G3SG/1 and M-14 have a muzzle velocity of around 860m/s. The G3 is something like 800 and the M40 and M-24 being the slowest at <800. For comparison:

(MEC G3) = 800m/s > 50

(M-14, G3SG/1) = 860m/s > 58

(M24, M40A3) = 800m/s > 80


My suggestion is to make the afore mentioned rifles do the same damage (more or less). This applies to other rounds as well (7.62x54 for Russia etc). I understand that this was most likely done for balancing purposes but I personally believe the kits are balanced via accuracy/deployed modes well enough already. Although I would certainly find MEC maps much more interesting .

Additionally, I would like bullet damage to be changed based on the following two formulas:

Taylor KO Power

Thornily Stopping Power

I understand that the wounding effects of bullets are a function of energy and diameter. Both of these formulas take this into account in varying degrees. I wouldn't know for sure which is better but an average could maybe be taken between the two.

For example: TK0 762x51 + TSP 762x51 = 113.5/2 = 56.75
TK0 556x45 + TSP 556x45 = 43.1 = 21.5

Explanation = The 7.62mm NATO (150 gr) will be hitting 2.6x harder than the 5.56mm NATO. In PR terms:

556_45_r (36) x 2.6 = 95

*NOTE: Please do not bring up 5.56mm tumbling/fragmentation etc. The 5.56mm NATO is a jacketed bullet and doesn't do this any more than any other round. Regardless, I still used PR's 5.56 round as a baseline for everything.

For the G3, G3SG/1 and M-14 this effectively doubles the damage. Sniper rifles will do slightly more damage.

My concern about the 7.62 rounds extends to the AK-47 as well. This is because the 7.62x39 in PR does the same damage as the 7.62x51... this more or less disregards the mass of the NATO round.

At the risk of violating "Disclaimer 1" I have to explain that the energy of the bullet is a function of mass as well as velocity. Otherwise the .308 pistol round would be much closer in performance of the 7.62x39.

The AK-47 and G3 do not fire the same bullet and shouldn't do the same damage.

Code:
ObjectTemplate.create GenericProjectile 762_39
ObjectTemplate.material 3762
ObjectTemplate.damage 50
Code:
ObjectTemplate.create GenericProjectile 762_51
ObjectTemplate.material 3762
ObjectTemplate.damage 50
Averaging TKO and TSP I get: 39.5 which when compared to PR's 5.56 should do 66 damage.

Summary:
  • 7.62 NATO (as well as 7.62x54 Russian) rounds in PR should be more or less equalized, whether it means increasing or decreasing them. This applies to whether the kit is a sniper/DMR/or normal Rifleman kit.

  • 7.62x51 NATO and 7.62x39 USSR rounds need to be changed to do dramatically different damage based on their dramatically different mass.

  • I understand concerns about balance. But the weapons are sufficiently balanced in ways beyond the power of the bullet. Accuracy, deployed modes, rate of fire, recoil, and magazine size are already in place, 100% realistic, and better suited for this.

I leave you with this shameless Blackhawk Down reference:

Quote:
They used to kid Randy Shughart because he shunned the modern rifle and ammunition
and carried a Vietnam-era M-14, which shot a 7.62-mm round without the penetrating
qualities of the new green tip. It occurred to Howe as he saw those Sammies keep
on running that Randy was the smartest soldier in the unit. His rifle may have been
heavier and comparatively awkward and delivered a mean recoil, but it damn sure
knocked a man down with one bullet, and in combat, one shot was often all you got.
You shoot a guy; you want to see him go down. You don't want to be guessing for
the next five hours whether you hit him, or whether he's still waiting for you in
the weeds.
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Last edited by CAS_117; 12-18-2011 at 07:12 PM..
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Old 12-18-2011, 07:24 PM   #2
ShockUnitBlack

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Default Re: Review of Rifle/DMR/Sniper Damage

Basically this would reduce most rifles' shots-to-kill by one, which really isn't necessary. In particular, raising the damage of the G3 and FAL to anything over 85 would make them absurdly overpowered; probably not a good idea.

On the other hand, I agree the 7.62x39's damage should be lowered.

Still, very interesting read.

"I Want To Spend The Rest Of My Life With You Tonight."
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Last edited by ShockUnitBlack; 12-18-2011 at 07:30 PM..
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Old 12-18-2011, 08:47 PM   #3
Hunt3r
Default Re: Review of Rifle/DMR/Sniper Damage

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShockUnitBlack View Post
Basically this would reduce most rifles' shots-to-kill by one, which really isn't necessary. In particular, raising the damage of the G3 and FAL to anything over 85 would make them absurdly overpowered; probably not a good idea.

On the other hand, I agree the 7.62x39's damage should be lowered.

Still, very interesting read.
It shouldn't be absurdly overpowered when you have an immense kick to go with it, and less staying power in combat in the first place.

The G3 and all 7.62 NATO battle rifles are already immensely unbalanced against the 5.56 NATO assault rifles with less ammo, more recoil, and an ROF that is functionally limited to semi-auto.

It's sad how people genuinely think that 7.62 NATO isn't enough to functionally put a soldier out of a fight with a single shot when it's used to kill things far bigger than people.

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Last edited by Hunt3r; 12-18-2011 at 08:59 PM..
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Old 12-18-2011, 09:11 PM   #4
ShockUnitBlack

ShockUnitBlack's Avatar
Default Re: Review of Rifle/DMR/Sniper Damage

There's already quite a few people who say the G3 and FAL are the best rifles in the game at the moment, and that's without their damage being doubled. Their disadvantages only really show in full-auto, something a good player can generally go without in most scenarios, so...

"I Want To Spend The Rest Of My Life With You Tonight."
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Old 12-18-2011, 09:29 PM   #5
PricelineNegotiator
Banned
Default Re: Review of Rifle/DMR/Sniper Damage

Quote:
Originally Posted by CAS_117 View Post
Disclaimer 1: This is not a "bullet x is better than bullet y" thread. Please discuss the advantages/disadvantages of different calibers elsewhere.

Disclaimer 2: I understand that bullets lose velocity (damage) at range. In PR however, the bullets will generally not lose any velocity before exiting the maximum view distance. Assume from here on that I am referring to the maximum damage done.

Disclaimer 3: I understand the importance of shot placement for bullet lethality. This is a discussion regarding the average relationship between bullets on the uniform impact surface found in BF2.

Disclaimer 4: I've attempted my suggestion in PR singleplayer against bots. The result is that anything firing the 7.62x51 will kill in one shot on unarmored targets (or unprotected areas).




Currently in PR, the G-3 and M-14 have more in common with the AK-47 than the M-24!

Haven't been on PR in awhile but I decided to play with the DMR kit the other day and noticed most sniper kits are a one hit kill while the G3 and M-14 take two usually.

I understand that there are dedicated sniper rounds used in this caliber. But this seems unrelated to the actual damage done and more to do with accuracy/energy retention. Numbers are as follows:

762_51_g (MEC G3) = 50

762_51_dmr (M-14, G3SG/1) = 58

762_51_sniper (M24, M40A5, SSG 69) = 80


The problem is that the G3SG/1 and M-14 have a muzzle velocity of around 860m/s. The G3 is something like 800 and the M40 and M-24 being the slowest at <800. For comparison:

(MEC G3) = 800m/s > 50

(M-14, G3SG/1) = 860m/s > 58

(M24, M40A3) = 800m/s > 80


My suggestion is to make the afore mentioned rifles do the same damage (more or less). This applies to other rounds as well (7.62x54 for Russia etc). I understand that this was most likely done for balancing purposes but I personally believe the kits are balanced via accuracy/deployed modes well enough already. Although I would certainly find MEC maps much more interesting .

Additionally, I would like bullet damage to be changed based on the following two formulas:

Taylor KO Power

Thornily Stopping Power

I understand that the wounding effects of bullets are a function of energy and diameter. Both of these formulas take this into account in varying degrees. I wouldn't know for sure which is better but an average could maybe be taken between the two.

For example: TK0 762x51 + TSP 762x51 = 113.5/2 = 56.75
TK0 556x45 + TSP 556x45 = 43.1 = 21.5

Explanation = The 7.62mm NATO (150 gr) will be hitting 2.6x harder than the 5.56mm NATO. In PR terms:

556_45_r (36) x 2.6 = 95

*NOTE: Please do not bring up 5.56mm tumbling/fragmentation etc. The 5.56mm NATO is a jacketed bullet and doesn't do this any more than any other round. Regardless, I still used PR's 5.56 round as a baseline for everything.

For the G3, G3SG/1 and M-14 this effectively doubles the damage. Sniper rifles will do slightly more damage.

My concern about the 7.62 rounds extends to the AK-47 as well. This is because the 7.62x39 in PR does the same damage as the 7.62x51... this more or less disregards the mass of the NATO round.

At the risk of violating "Disclaimer 1" I have to explain that the energy of the bullet is a function of mass as well as velocity. Otherwise the .308 pistol round would be much closer in performance of the 7.62x39.

The AK-47 and G3 do not fire the same bullet and shouldn't do the same damage.

Code:
ObjectTemplate.create GenericProjectile 762_39
ObjectTemplate.material 3762
ObjectTemplate.damage 50
Code:
ObjectTemplate.create GenericProjectile 762_51
ObjectTemplate.material 3762
ObjectTemplate.damage 50
Averaging TKO and TSP I get: 39.5 which when compared to PR's 5.56 should do 66 damage.

Summary:
  • 7.62 NATO (as well as 7.62x54 Russian) rounds in PR should be more or less equalized, whether it means increasing or decreasing them. This applies to whether the kit is a sniper/DMR/or normal Rifleman kit.

  • 7.62x51 NATO and 7.62x39 USSR rounds need to be changed to do dramatically different damage based on their dramatically different mass.

  • I understand concerns about balance. But the weapons are sufficiently balanced in ways beyond the power of the bullet. Accuracy, deployed modes, rate of fire, recoil, and magazine size are already in place, 100% realistic, and better suited for this.

I leave you with this shameless Blackhawk Down reference:
Wow, I've been waiting for someone to post something like this. I give you a cyber high-five OP.
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Old 12-18-2011, 11:36 PM   #6
[R-MOD]Spec
Forum Moderator
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Default Re: Review of Rifle/DMR/Sniper Damage

As for the sniper rifles doing more damage: I think an important factor to take into account is that the BF2 engine only has very inaccurate hitboxes. You can't make a difference about which part of the chest you've hit. I always assumed that sniper rifles didn't actually cause more damage; the superior knowledge and skill at taking out the target with a single shot was simply directly translated into damage points (of course into accuracy as well, but that doesn't solve the hit zone issue).


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Old 12-19-2011, 01:10 PM   #7
CAS_117
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Default Re: Review of Rifle/DMR/Sniper Damage

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShockUnitBlack View Post
There's already quite a few people who say the G3 and FAL are the best rifles in the game at the moment, and that's without their damage being doubled. Their disadvantages only really show in full-auto, something a good player can generally go without in most scenarios, so...
The AK-47 is a better rifle than either of them. It does the same damage with less recoil and 10 more rounds per magazine.

The internal problems between DMR's and Sniper Rifles is less of a concern than the problems between the AK-47 and G3/DMRs. 7.62x39 and 7.62x51 are entirely different things and I feel this should be portrayed ingame as entirely different things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by [R-MOD]Spec View Post
As for the sniper rifles doing more damage: I think an important factor to take into account is that the BF2 engine only has very inaccurate hitboxes. You can't make a difference about which part of the chest you've hit. I always assumed that sniper rifles didn't actually cause more damage; the superior knowledge and skill at taking out the target with a single shot was simply directly translated into damage points (of course into accuracy as well, but that doesn't solve the hit zone issue).
Disregarding the fact that a 7.62x51 will incapacitate indefinitely anywhere inside the targets center of mass (regardless of any body armor in existence), the fact is that the weapons already have different deviation values/settle times. This logic could apply to any scoped weapon for that matter since obviously they are more accurate at range.

Besides, headshots are already left up to the players. I know heads have different damage modifiers but since we can't represent the brain/spinal column specifically (and people have survived headshots) we don't make it so only snipers can kill with a single shot to the head "because only they were trained for it" right?

I should also note that currently, it is better to hit enemies lower bodies. The armor in BF2 is in the chest/back area only. Snipers should only aim for the knees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PricelineNegotiator View Post
Wow, I've been waiting for someone to post something like this. I give you a cyber high-five OP.
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Old 12-19-2011, 01:21 PM   #8
ShockUnitBlack

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Default Re: Review of Rifle/DMR/Sniper Damage

How does the 7.62x39 compare with the 5.45x39. The reason I'm asking is because I feel the AK-47 and AK-74 should handle somewhat different from one another in-game. Currently, for example, the AK-74 is more accurate than the 47, which in contrast does more damage.

"I Want To Spend The Rest Of My Life With You Tonight."
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Old 12-19-2011, 01:59 PM   #9
CAS_117
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Default Re: Review of Rifle/DMR/Sniper Damage

AK-74 damage:

Code:
ObjectTemplate.create GenericProjectile 545_39
ObjectTemplate.material 3556
ObjectTemplate.damage 36
About 30% less than the AK-47. I am even more concerned now because the AK-47 should be doing more damage on the order of magnitudes. Not 30%...
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Old 12-19-2011, 03:22 PM   #10
Mikemonster

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Default Re: Review of Rifle/DMR/Sniper Damage

Wow - Well written post.

Aside from damage there are a lot of things to consider.

The game is not intended to be a simulation.. As such, you would need to make the G3 calibre guns a lot less accurate after they've been slewed around, if you wanted to keep the balance.

Otherwise, everyone would just grab a G3 with no scope and instead of firing well aimed shots would just hope for a single hit, knowing they had a kill.

I love the G3 currently.. I swear that after about 6 seconds settle time when prone it's more accurate than the M4.

The guns have lots of different stats (the M4 loses less accuracy than the 'big' guns if it's slewed around quickly, for example), and these compensate for the fact that the system of 'damage' is arcadey.


Still, can't argue with your post. It's a case of gameplay > realism again for me.

Although from now on i'll be exclusively using the AK-47! Thanks!

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