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Old 2016-09-13, 16:18   #31
Wicca
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Default Re: How to improve the playerbase

My clan does trainings for both grunts and squadleaders. If all communities started doing trainings like these perhaps it would serve as a way to improve the playerbase.

It would definetly work like a general academy across the servers, where things would differ depending on who ran the training.


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Old 2016-09-13, 22:52   #32
Mouthpiece
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Default Re: How to improve the playerbase

Yeah, maybe it would.

So can we all at least agree on the fact that good (no, half-decent would do actually) squad leaders make the game? And bad ones have the potential to brake it.

I think that this and mostly this problem is the root of this problem. Of course, there are other things that impact it - like the "general state of community". For example, when I started playing (2009), there was a huge sense of an active community. Lots of buzz and hype. Now it's gone. It's a natural process for every old game.

So basically now we have more un-interested people and more people who think that it's best to dive in this game w/o reading the manual or understanding the basics (read the other topic in General Discussion - about a newbie asking questions).

Or could it be that less players are interested in using forums? Because PR forum is the place where a random noob can learn a lot and notice the community. At least - that's where I got to knew it. But for some reason there are somewhat less people that have joined this forum after 2013/2014. Or maybe that's only some kind of bias of mine, dunno. But it seems that way. People who are not interested leave, but it seems that less and less new people stay. Or less and less people "join the community" (of course, by now there is no "active community" - it's mostly a community of people who are active game development-wise but passive socially.

Maybe PR DEV team should think about the social engeneering aspect of PR? E.g., by doing something with forums, homepage - something so that the more young people feel comfortable here. I really don't know if there's a way though, because I don't think that changing "graphics" can impact such a thing, but you never know.

I think that Wicca's idea about unified SL training isn't viable in our state of community. Ok, there will be 8-16 people who will learn something, but 4 of them will stop playing in few months, 7 in few more, etc. That is - if less and less people are interested in community based learning (or doesn't know about the existence of PR forums), then all those topics "learn how to X" are useless.

Maybe at least the link to PR forums should be featured somewhere in loading screens or something (at least more times - and with a note that community awaits, hehe, no, but srys).
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Old 2016-09-14, 10:59   #33
Midnight_o9
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Default Re: How to improve the playerbase

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Originally Posted by Mouthpiece View Post
Yeah, maybe it would.

So can we all at least agree on the fact that good (no, half-decent would do actually) squad leaders make the game? And bad ones have the potential to brake it.
Bad behaviour break the game, and some great squadleaders really need to work on their behaviour and social skills. The problem is far more complicated than just "bad SLs kill the game".

Quote:
I think that this and mostly this problem is the root of this problem. Of course, there are other things that impact it - like the "general state of community". For example, when I started playing (2009), there was a huge sense of an active community. Lots of buzz and hype. Now it's gone. It's a natural process for every old game.
We're one year away from the last big release, so it's not a matter of how old the game is, it's a matter of how long it's been since new content, as it has always been. I started playing in 2006 and it's always the same, new content attract people and renew their interest in the game, then some AAA game comes out and 4 months later the "buzz" dies out... 10 months later a new big release comes out and bam, events and veterans pop back up.

Quote:
So basically now we have more un-interested people and more people who think that it's best to dive in this game w/o reading the manual or understanding the basics (read the other topic in General Discussion - about a newbie asking questions).
I never read the manual... then again, started playing on .3 so I just had to adapt to the changes as they came, but mostly I learned ingame, talking with people, people who care about teaching other players instead of blaming them. It's infinitely more enjoyable to learn from someone than from a block of text.

Quote:
Or could it be that less players are interested in using forums? Because PR forum is the place where a random noob can learn a lot and notice the community. At least - that's where I got to knew it. But for some reason there are somewhat less people that have joined this forum after 2013/2014. Or maybe that's only some kind of bias of mine, dunno. But it seems that way. People who are not interested leave, but it seems that less and less new people stay. Or less and less people "join the community" (of course, by now there is no "active community" - it's mostly a community of people who are active game development-wise but passive socially.
No active community yet C12 is about to start and the event section has like 4 or 5 events in the making? We're not a million players so you can't expect the kind of "activity" you see on other games. Also, most of the activity is within clans and smaller communities, such as PRTA, BASED or FCV, due to the niche aspect of PR, people tend to focus on their server and community more than on the game itself in its grand scale. Like FCV, since that's where I'm playing, currently Wicca is on a recruiting spree once again, and you can see NP everywhere, some people think it's bad, but all in all, a lot of what you call newbs joined, and were provided with all kinds of tips and advices on the game, trainings, how to play, all that stuff, things they would probably not get without the NP (or else) community.

Quote:
Maybe PR DEV team should think about the social engeneering aspect of PR? E.g., by doing something with forums, homepage - something so that the more young people feel comfortable here. I really don't know if there's a way though, because I don't think that changing "graphics" can impact such a thing, but you never know.
DEVs have way too much on their plate already, and there is very little they can do, external communities need to take care of the social aspect of the game.

Quote:
I think that Wicca's idea about unified SL training isn't viable in our state of community. Ok, there will be 8-16 people who will learn something, but 4 of them will stop playing in few months, 7 in few more, etc. That is - if less and less people are interested in community based learning (or doesn't know about the existence of PR forums), then all those topics "learn how to X" are useless.
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Originally Posted by Mouthpiece View Post
It's actually really simple. You just have to be a person that doesn't pussy out when the need to order something arises. I've led squads 6 months after starting playing PR. And I started because even back then I'd better lead a sq myself then submit to an moronic SL who doesn't really know his shit.

But, yeah, HOW TO IMPROVE playerbase? You can't. Good squadleaders are the backbone of good rounds and others becoming better. But as there are less and less good squad leaders (why? because who wants to lead a squad of 14 y.olds who doesnt want to learn the basics of this game)... the game gets more and more stale.

As I 've noted in past. The gold of PR are the squadleaders. They should be loved and cherised. But the "recommend sl" topic is burried in midst of some more unnecessary info (as it would help a lot, haha). I really don't know If we can solve this problem.

Advanced SL training? People nowadays mostly are too much of a pussies to join those kinds of things.
So basically, WIcca proposes an idea, and your only argument is "no because people are stupid"? Remember when I talked about behaviour and social skills?

Have you ever tried to teach a squad leader to squad lead the way you want him to, instead of just calling him a moronic pussy and leave to make your own awesome squad?
Have you ever tried to gently talk to your 14 years olds to explain to them how to play properly, and how fun it actually can be?

As a squad leader you should also be able to adapt to your squad members, it's a game, you can't impose a military discipline, you have to make the best of both worlds, if you have a squad full of dudes who are new and want to see some action, don't sit at the flag to defend it when the rest of the team moves up, as vets we know it's a necessity but as new people it's just freaking boring, yes they'll learn sooner or later, but if you can't get them to do what you want them to do, have them do what is needed for them to be a tiny bit in control.

And yes, you're gonna say you did try, that's it's useless because they're such moronic pussies, but just as you'd be surprised what graphics can do to the human mind, you'd be even more surprised what POLITENESS can do to most people.
For exemple, in NP, it's the 3rd point in the clan's document, "be polite", unfortunately most of the officers of that clan don't seem to be able to read, but if they did, that'd be a great start, to enforce politeness in your community.

You can't just shelter in your little golden castle saying that if it goes to shit it's other people's fault, if new players are uninterested in all you care about, either you leave or you try to create that interest. At least Wicca is trying, maybe not in the best ways, but he's trying, and mind you, his community (which I'm actually part of, I admit) is a bit of a cancer, his officers are full of themselves (maybe not all, but yeah...) and are overly serious about the game (it's bold because too many people seems to forget it's a freakin game, games are meant to be for fun, not to get insulted or to insult others) but at least they're trying to move things a little bit.

Quote:
Maybe at least the link to PR forums should be featured somewhere in loading screens or something (at least more times - and with a note that community awaits, hehe, no, but srys).
most people download the game from this site, and read the manual from here too, adding more links won't get them to visit more, like you said, uninterested people leave, no matter how many links you throw down their way.

As for Disnoxxio, it's not about whose server or community is the best, it's about what those are doing for promoting the game. Because they're the most influencial around here, and they should be expected to set the exemple and encourage people to play more and have fun, not to repel new players.

Everyone's blaming the lack of SLs, but who would want to do such thing in a bad ambiance?
Instead of yelling at people because they set a FOB at the wrong place, how about instead you explain why it's bad and ask them to move it to a suggested location?
Instead of telling them they're moronic pussies, how about you suggest them where to go and what to do? Yes they might not listen, but at least you tried, and the seed is planted, it might do some effect for the future, people will remember they were told not to do this or that and might reconsider before doing it again.

Beyond SLs, Commanders are awfully scarce, it's indeed a boring job, but a necessary one, and yet we completely avoid the problem, no training, no tips...

Admins is another huge problem. And on that point I entirely agree with kanonator, use warnings more, kick less. Make a training on how to handle people, how to actually talk to people. Remind the basic rules once in a while. Have admins who are not necessarily always squad leading, as SL is already needing a lot of focus, it's pretty hard to take the time to do admin stuff in the meantime. And just because you don't like to Squadlead doesn't make you a bad admin, just the same as if you're a good SL, doesn't make you a good admin...
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Old 2016-09-14, 13:43   #34
Vista
Default Re: How to improve the playerbase

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Originally Posted by inb4banned View Post
Most experienced players stick together and lock their squads, if you can make them unlock for 1 or 2 not so experienced players they'd naturally start picking up lessons from them and you'd have better community every day. Unfortunately experienced players just want to play without having to frustrate themselves with the burden of newer players holding them back, being annoying, getting them killed, delaying their tactics etc.
Pretty much this
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Old 2016-09-14, 13:45   #35
Mouthpiece
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Default Re: How to improve the playerbase

Sorry, friend, I really don't want to discuss a problem that is quite clear.

Tell me, how many times has the "sl/sl training" in community worked? Has it improved anything? Was there time when it improved anything? Yes, there was, but it's because of the people. See, nowadays people are less interested in putting their time and effort in order to become better. They just want quick/instant fun. I'm not gonna debate this fact.

If you really don't agree, It's okay. But I can't take your arguments seriously nuff if you really think that there is activity. "Also, most of the activity is within clans and smaller communities, such as PRTA, BASED or FCV, due to the niche aspect of PR". PRTA is dead (how many % of old PRTA members play there? 5%?), BASED is dead (I loved BASED, but noone is seeding it), FCV is full of noobs and the premise of the server is so fucking dumb that serious players stay away from it (FCV was born "in spite" of rules/seriousness).
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Old 2016-09-14, 14:26   #36
Shan~Man
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Default Re: How to improve the playerbase

Newguy suggestion based upon my experience so far. Ive Read the manual multiple times and played w bots only 30+ games before joining a live coop. Out of the aprox 10 coop games played so far 4 out of 10 were good learning experiences. I'd inform SL right up front I'm new and the Squad leader and helpful squadies are the key for a new player. I won't talk about the bad trips out.

Add to the forum tabs above or splash screen. Training Section. Organize as much info there document or video wise in one place for easy access. I'm reading everywhere I can but tunneling thru links everywhere becomes cumbersome for some.

If there are training sessions scheduled splash it Bold somewhere on the main page.
Would a "Training session Vote" post in News forum help.."If You want to learn SquadTactics" please sign-up here. If there is enough interest, just organize a sesssion or 2 informally of course you have to have someone willing to teach. I'll be the 1st sign-up!
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Old 2016-09-15, 00:11   #37
Sbitan89
Default Re: How to improve the playerbase

As a new player i believe having more available squads I think would bring a new sense of health to the community as far as gameplay.As gar as the community and its playerbase. Ive discovered a few types of players. Those who micro manage, normally with success, but make the game less enjoyable. Those SL who are just horrible, thus making the game more enjoyable. Then there are the squad members. Those who follow the orders and work as a team that make enjoyable gameplay, and then those who do their own thing. The biggest issue I see is that SL seems to attract all the A type assholes who believe only their way will work, or someone thrown into it and just isnt very effective.

I honestly rather have the latter, cause though I may die a lot I dont have to spend the entire match listening to him complain about how incompetent everyone is. They want to lead, but cam never seem to lead as much as demand to be followed.

I really like this game and Id ultimately like to be able to play a sniper recon team who hits High Priority Targets and lasers targets. I dont feel like I will ever get to, not because it isnt feasible, but because a whisper of wanting to do that is shot down, criticized and then followed with me being kicked. I can be a good team player and often be one of the best in the squad, but when exactly do I get to play the game I want? Not only how my SL or admin wants?

Thats the biggest issue I see is the barrier to new players not just accepting everything. Its either their way or the high way scenario and that doesnt work in ges, let alone IRL. Ironically this does work in the military, but ultimately this is a game. Trying new things ultimately has no negative effects besides at most losing that match. Its not that big of a deal.
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Old 2016-09-15, 11:31   #38
Wicca
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Default Re: How to improve the playerbase

Not sure why you guys are wondering how to fix the community. This thread was mostly so we could get an agreement across the board on what it is.

For me it is institution.

Any clan that actively recruits and trains up players are contributing to the gameplay. Sometimes the training is bad, or the squadleaders are bad or the squadmembers are bad, but it is far superior to no progress at all.

I feel there is a huge "I want to give up" emotion in the community now, people are mostly focused on catching hackers and just playing the game without having to do any other work.

PRTA and BASED are not the frontline at all, their playerbase is made up of mainly experienced players. I have no information about DPRC or similar.

The argument I am trying to make here is that if each community focused on training up new players or any players, and getting them into the game, the game would steadily improve in terms of player skill.

You guys think this is some easy 1 stop fix instant coffee solution?! Bwah! Ive been doing this for quite some time, Spearhead used to be a squadleader only clan, Foxtrot focused on getting many players and train both squadleaders and squadmembers. You dont have to love what I do, but the people I recruited and organized are still around to this day, pushing life and content into the game, and playing PR with public players when they squadlead.

Generally speaking, the most useful player in PR, is a public squadleader. That person is more valuable than anyone. And well this thread was just a way for everyone to agree on what is the most important. I enjoy being able to have a squad where everyone have microphones and listens. I like seeing squadleaders sit down and explain what their plan is, and take the game extra serious just for the sake of immersion.

There is this huge elitist group who walks around laughing at anyone who take the game too seriously and is bad at the game, I mean let them have fun! Why would we suffocate peoples enjoyment simply for the sake of our own idea that we are superior?

I think something that should be laughed at more is the rivalries that some communities express to one another. Really get over it. We are all in the same boat! If a server crashes, where do you think all the players go?

It's the same playerbase regardless of what server is up or down.

Now what I propose is simple, a set of general guidelines that we can all agree on makes the game better, if it is for squadleaders, squad members or the rare commander.


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Old 2016-09-15, 13:19   #39
Mouthpiece
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Default Re: How to improve the playerbase

Quote:
There is this huge elitist group who walks around laughing at anyone who take the game too seriously and is bad at the game, I mean let them have fun! Why would we suffocate peoples enjoyment simply for the sake of our own idea that we are superior?

[..]

Now what I propose is simple, a set of general guidelines that we can all agree on makes the game better, if it is for squadleaders, squad members or the rare commander.
Yes, I've noticed some of these "harmful" attitudes, even blatant laughing at people.

And no, there are no easy solutions. It's a community after all. A living being. A changing being. IMHO, even guidlines can't help. But anyway it's better to try then to give up in this situation (we're in this thread after all).
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Old 2016-09-15, 16:21   #40
Midnight_o9
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Default Re: How to improve the playerbase

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Originally Posted by Wicca View Post
Not sure why you guys are wondering how to fix the community. This thread was mostly so we could get an agreement across the board on what it is.
your OP asked for ideas and suggestions, not an overall agreement.

Quote:
PRTA and BASED are not the frontline at all, their playerbase is made up of mainly experienced players. I have no information about DPRC or similar.
They're kinda the frontline for this very reason actually, it goes against everything else you say. You say the core of a good playerbase is the squadleader, and that the most experienced players aren't the frontline? The best squadleaders usually come from the most experienced players, not always, but I think 90% of the time, so yes big communities are the spearhead of the CHANGE that you want to see happen.

Quote:
The argument I am trying to make here is that if each community focused on training up new players or any players, and getting them into the game, the game would steadily improve in terms of player skill.
QED, communities are the frontline/solution

Quote:
Generally speaking, the most useful player in PR, is a public squadleader. That person is more valuable than anyone. And well this thread was just a way for everyone to agree on what is the most important. I enjoy being able to have a squad where everyone have microphones and listens. I like seeing squadleaders sit down and explain what their plan is, and take the game extra serious just for the sake of immersion.

There is this huge elitist group who walks around laughing at anyone who take the game too seriously and is bad at the game, I mean let them have fun! Why would we suffocate peoples enjoyment simply for the sake of our own idea that we are superior?
The thing is, with all due respect, you're part of the "fun > seriousness" people... just to a certain point. You can be the least serious guy in a game, allow a shit ton of stupid things to happen, until you decide it's enough and start warning everyone who isn't serious enough to your liking.

exemple, seeding the server, 10v10 no more, I use the rocket techie because a guy asked me if I knew how to use it and to demonstrate. I get warned, by yourself, and am kindly asked to leave the vehicle... Few days later, I play with you, same situation, 10v10 ish, but this time you're in your "fun" mood, the insurgent team start to let rockets rain in US main, your reaction this time? "I'll allow it, let them have fun"... it was against the rules, both times, yet the action taken was different. Not that I blame you, or your reaction, but I find it silly that you condemn people for actually doing what you're sometimes doing.

I understand there is a certain degree where it's disrupting the game, but those guys are super rare, or they play a few games and are never to be seen again, it's pretty unfair to put all that on people who still see PR as a game more than a simulation and you're the living proof that taking the game not so seriously doesn't make you a bad player. At all.

So it seems that it's more of, once again, an issue with respect more than seriousness or fun, you can have fun ingame without disrupting the game if you follow the general rules and do what you're expected to do. And it's the same as you can play extra seriously without insulting or getting extra angry at people who don't share your seriousness.

The seriousness level also depend highly on many factors, such as the time you're playing at, the people playing (seeded server or not), so maybe show mercy on all that immersion stuff.

Quote:
Now what I propose is simple, a set of general guidelines that we can all agree on makes the game better, if it is for squadleaders, squad members or the rare commander.
go ahead, and add admins to the list maybe? I still think they're part of the solution, those are the people you look for whenever a problem occurs after all.

I also propose that you organise an intercommunities event, where each communities provide SLs and COs, with other positions filled with new players willing to learn, because learning by exemple is the best way to learn, and don't make it look like a formal training but more like a regular game, two teams, with an equal number of experienced players. Then mid game or something experienced players could leave the SL position and observe and advice new players on the job, telling them what or what not to do.
Summer vacations are over, quite a few players will be back, and with the upcoming release you'll have more and more players, you should easily find candidates to fill all the positions.

Another idea would be to have a kind of competition with small teams (8v8 or 16v16) on skirmish maps or bootcamp, with "new" players as squadleaders, to teach them the basics on a small scale, in a "real" situation. You could also have your officers or such observing with PRbots? The idea would be that with the competition aspect, those players would have something "real"ish to fight for, that'd give you the overall seriousness in a fun environement (casual competitions are usually fun). Kind of a PR Campaign, smaller scale. it can boost confidence in leading men, without the stress to have to build FOBs, mark targets and all that. And could be easier to set up than a 50v50 match.

And since you're against all that community rivalry, maybe use it, make each community bring players for small scale competition like suggested above? Winner gets the e-cookie trophy until the next competition. People learn, communities get to gloat (or cry), everyone's happy.

Anyway, you're well known for making a ton of stuff for this game, and yo'ure awesome at it, you'll figure something out, with or without the rest of us. Also, Elusif has great ideas, promote her more.
And I stand my ground on the fact that a new release will solve the lack of SLs, at least for a few months.

(every summer someone complains that the game is going down a slope, honestly...)

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouthpiece View Post
But anyway it's better to try then to give up in this situation (we're in this thread after all).
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HOW TO IMPROVE playerbase? You can't.
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