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Old 06-24-2009, 03:35 PM   #11
Cp

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Default Re: Remove the New Hydra rocket deviation

Quote:
Originally Posted by rudy_eila View Post
Hello Guys...

...
You'd love DCS:Black shark

40 S-8 FFARs wont kill infantry most of the time...




Anyways, Kudos to the CA team for the deviation.
The FFARs have been used unrealistically quite a long time now, esp back when the AH-6 with hydras was used effectively as a tank hunter on qwai.

Now we only need the miniguns to have some more deviation and we are set.

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Old 06-24-2009, 03:47 PM   #12
CAS_117
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Default Re: Remove the New Hydra rocket deviation

Here is the damage values for convenience sake from PR.

Quote:
rem ---BeginComp:DefaultDetonationComp ---
ObjectTemplate.createComponent DefaultDetonationComp
ObjectTemplate.detonation.explosionMaterial 3707
ObjectTemplate.detonation.explosionRadius 20
ObjectTemplate.detonation.explosionForce 10
ObjectTemplate.detonation.explosionDamage 150
ObjectTemplate.detonation.endEffectTemplate e_exp_medium_rocket
ObjectTemplate.detonation.useMMOnEndEffect 1
ObjectTemplate.detonation.detectionRadius 1.5
ObjectTemplate.detonation.maxDepthForExplosion 2
rem ---EndComp ---

ObjectTemplate.material 3707
ObjectTemplate.hasOnTimeEffect 1
ObjectTemplate.tracerSizeModifier 0
ObjectTemplate.minDamage 0.2
ObjectTemplate.damage 333
I will assume this is a 155mm shell. However if it were anything smaller that would simply mean the hydra is even more deficient.

Quote:
rem ---BeginComp:DefaultDetonationComp ---
ObjectTemplate.createComponent DefaultDetonationComp
ObjectTemplate.detonation.explosionMaterial 80
ObjectTemplate.detonation.explosionRadius 35
ObjectTemplate.detonation.explosionForce 30
ObjectTemplate.detonation.explosionDamage 6000
ObjectTemplate.detonation.detonateDistanceToTarget 1
ObjectTemplate.detonation.endEffectTemplate e_exp_XlargePR
ObjectTemplate.detonation.useMMOnEndEffect 1
rem ---EndComp ---

ObjectTemplate.material 44
ObjectTemplate.hasOnTimeEffect 1
ObjectTemplate.minDamage 1
ObjectTemplate.damage 6000
Differences in materials aside (Multiply the hydra damage by 0.3 for APC front/side armor and by 0.6 for top/rear armor. Does very little). The Artillery shell damage does 100% of the damage it has to all materials.

Both of these explosions are wrong more or less.

Since both are fragmenting weapons, the actual blast force and fragmentation radius have basically been merged into one. This means that either the blast, or frag radius is losing out. They must be separate.

From CA:

Quote:
Fragmentation Radius:

rem ---BeginComp:Armor ---
ObjectTemplate.createComponent Armor
ObjectTemplate.armor.maxHitPoints 0
ObjectTemplate.armor.hitPoints 0
ObjectTemplate.armor.defaultMaterial 32
ObjectTemplate.armor.hpLostWhileUpSideDown 75
ObjectTemplate.armor.hpLostWhileInWater 50
ObjectTemplate.armor.hpLostWhileInDeepWater 80
ObjectTemplate.armor.waterLevel -0.3
ObjectTemplate.armor.explosionForce 5
ObjectTemplate.armor.explosionForceMod 0
ObjectTemplate.armor.explosionForceMax 5
ObjectTemplate.armor.explosionDamage 200 <- kills out to 20m or so I think.
ObjectTemplate.armor.explosionRadius 30
ObjectTemplate.armor.explosionMaterial 3050 <- This is the .50 Cal material. Probably the most suitable.
ObjectTemplate.armor.criticalDamage 1
rem ---EndComp ---

Blast Radius (very small for this projectile):

rem ---BeginComp:DefaultDetonationComp ---
ObjectTemplate.createComponent DefaultDetonationComp
ObjectTemplate.detonation.explosionMaterial 3707
ObjectTemplate.detonation.explosionRadius 15
ObjectTemplate.detonation.explosionForce 10
ObjectTemplate.detonation.explosionDamage 350
ObjectTemplate.detonation.endEffectTemplate e_exp_medium_rocket
ObjectTemplate.detonation.useMMOnEndEffect 1
ObjectTemplate.detonation.detectionRadius 1.5
ObjectTemplate.detonation.maxDepthForExplosion 2
rem ---EndComp ---

Impact damage: (This should really be zero, and then merged with the blast radius. However, I believe that the damage/distance from impact function is linear instead of exponential. If this is the case then this should remain, as a direct hit does as much as it should).

ObjectTemplate.material 3707
ObjectTemplate.hasOnTimeEffect 1
ObjectTemplate.tracerSizeModifier 0
ObjectTemplate.minDamage 0.2
ObjectTemplate.damage 500
I'd post the 155 but meh, wall of text is scary enough.

My point: While the actual properties of the hydras up until 0.86 were not realistic, their effectiveness was not. The blast and fragmentation from hydras can and do rip right through apcs and tanks (I am not arguing about this, but let me say that when there are 6000 60 grain fragments going thousands of meters per second landing around anything, they will make holes. This has been proven by tests of 155mm shells on armor during the Cold War).

So really adding the damage without deviation or deviation without damage sort of makes the hydras a lot less effective than they really should be.
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Old 06-24-2009, 03:55 PM   #13
Rissien
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Default Re: Remove the New Hydra rocket deviation

The deviation is fine, now you can attack a wider radius without having to jink and juke, perfect for anti-infantry and it is still acuurate. Clean and I strafed the aa bdrm on Jabal, he had just crossed the bridge as we came over the hill to aid in the assault of the city itself and it went down fast in our single strafe.


MA3-USN Former

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Old 06-24-2009, 04:04 PM   #14
gclark03

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Default Re: Remove the New Hydra rocket deviation

Deviation without damage. They never have been particularly friendly to aircraft...

CAS, I love that you can make points just as well as Warren or Truism, but without wrapping the information in 1000 words of useless prose. There's something inherently respectable about that.
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Old 06-24-2009, 04:08 PM   #15
Alex6714

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Default Re: Remove the New Hydra rocket deviation

To the point about speed, in general it is correct, they reach 740m/s after about 1 second of acceleration, though the british apache should be similar except up to 1000m/s more or less.

S5 and S8 vary depending on the rocket type it seems but similar to 740m/s it is. Il go looking for those sources now.



http://www.rbs.ru/vttv/99/firms/applphys/e-s8.htm

http://warfare.ru/?catid=346&linkid=2512

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/hydra-70.htm

http://www.bristol.ca/Motors.html

"Today's forecast calls for 30mm HE rain with a slight chance of hellfires"

"oh, they're fire and forget all right...they're fired then they forget where the target is"
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Last edited by Alex6714; 06-24-2009 at 04:25 PM..
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Old 06-24-2009, 04:52 PM   #16
Hitman.2.5
Default Re: Remove the New Hydra rocket deviation

just aim slightly below you target and its all good. At least it give MEC a break if a inexperienced pilot is flying.

Derpist
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Old 06-24-2009, 06:34 PM   #17
Punkbuster

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Default Re: Remove the New Hydra rocket deviation

Quote:
Originally Posted by [R-MOD]crazyasian11 View Post
Provide sources that this is not realistic.


The DEVs are not going to put something back just because you cant hit anything. The hydras are very effective if used right.
I didn't say that I cant hit anything, I said you cant kill APC and AAs with the new deviation, Beucase you need to hit them about 11 hydras to kill which is impossible to be done in 1 strafe, You will have to do 2 or more strafes and shoot a few missiles in each strafe to kill

Quote:
Originally Posted by =]H[=ElvishKnight View Post
The deviation is fine, now you can attack a wider radius without having to jink and juke, perfect for anti-infantry and it is still acuurate. Clean and I strafed the aa bdrm on Jabal, he had just crossed the bridge as we came over the hill to aid in the assault of the city itself and it went down fast in our single strafe.
Well, I am not talking about the BRDM AA because this one need 4-5 hydras to kill which can be done in 1 strafe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitman.2.5 View Post
just aim slightly below you target and its all good. At least it give MEC a break if a inexperienced pilot is flying.
Thats what I do, there is a new problem now.
The Devs have limited the vehicles spawn limits on training maps, So now only 1 attack huey spawn in training, and its usually taken, so it makes it hard to practice

In-game name: =[BF]= Rudy_PR
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Old 06-24-2009, 06:36 PM   #18
Hitman.2.5
Default Re: Remove the New Hydra rocket deviation

^^^ ahhh i see, crate local?

Derpist
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Old 06-24-2009, 07:27 PM   #19
Masaq
Retired PR Developer
Supporting Member

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Default Re: Remove the New Hydra rocket deviation

Quote:
Originally Posted by CAS_117 View Post
Here is the damage values for convenience sake from PR.



I will assume this is a 155mm shell. However if it were anything smaller that would simply mean the hydra is even more deficient.



Differences in materials aside (Multiply the hydra damage by 0.3 for APC front/side armor and by 0.6 for top/rear armor. Does very little). The Artillery shell damage does 100% of the damage it has to all materials.

Both of these explosions are wrong more or less.

Since both are fragmenting weapons, the actual blast force and fragmentation radius have basically been merged into one. This means that either the blast, or frag radius is losing out. They must be separate.

From CA:



I'd post the 155 but meh, wall of text is scary enough.

My point: While the actual properties of the hydras up until 0.86 were not realistic, their effectiveness was not. The blast and fragmentation from hydras can and do rip right through apcs and tanks (I am not arguing about this, but let me say that when there are 6000 60 grain fragments going thousands of meters per second landing around anything, they will make holes. This has been proven by tests of 155mm shells on armor during the Cold War).

So really adding the damage without deviation or deviation without damage sort of makes the hydras a lot less effective than they really should be.


If you use CODE tags around it, you'll get a scrollbar instead of a wall of text


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Old 06-24-2009, 08:09 PM   #20
503
Supporting Member

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Default Re: Remove the New Hydra rocket deviation

AA should kill you. Not you kill it.

Should hydras even hurt armor? I thought they were used as anti-infantry. If they're not, than the Z-10 just got a hell lot more powerful.
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