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View Full Version : AA missiles vs attack helicopters


TheComedian
2011-01-20, 22:43
Demostrated by this video:

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I think I am right to say that attack helicopters need more resistance to splash damage. I get very frustrated when an AA missile just blows up where its not supposed to do, and that still destroys the attack heli. Shown in this video, there was more than enough flares to break the AA lock, and the AA glitches and destroys my chopper from clearly a survivable blast. Whats more, you don't even get a chance to bail out or land. its just insta-death.

Edit: Hmm my Tube videos don't seem to show up here. If you have problem with the embedded vid you can find it here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vf4p3RqutEU)

chrisweb89
2011-01-20, 23:22
An example of why flares should shoot out farther and/or AA splash should be reduced.

Kain888
2011-01-20, 23:27
Is it unrealistic?

Rudd
2011-01-20, 23:53
are AA missiles not designed to explode near the target, not specifically on the target to hit the target with shrapnel?

Kain888
2011-01-21, 00:09
The target is usually destroyed or damaged by means of an explosive warhead, often throwing out fragments to increase the lethal radius, typically detonated by a proximity fuze (or impact fuze if it scores a direct hit).

So I assume you've proved that PR is working as it should TheComedian. :)

Stealthgato
2011-01-21, 00:11
Attack helicopters blow up immediately when AA blows up 20 meters away from them, Blackhawks don't even start smoking after a direct hit from a Stinger.

Murphy
2011-01-21, 01:44
I think a slight adjusting to how much dmg choppers can endure would be a good thing. Hueys are notoriously difficult to bring down, but is a cobra not ultimately a Huey designed with lotsa teeth and toys? I suppose it's more for balancing game play as Cobras can dish out a lot of hurt, but it just doesn't feel right having such an easy time bringing them down.

Kain888
2011-01-21, 02:02
Huey is a tank with rotor, impossible to take down even after direct AA hit. :<

BenHamish
2011-01-21, 08:05
I still find it frustrating in a 'reality' game that 'pistols only do 20 damage' and that big heavy transport helicopters have 'more health' than attack helicopters.

dtacs
2011-01-21, 08:23
Its for gameplay purposes, you've been here long enough to know that gameplay comes before realism.

If the only transport for infantry died so easily, it wouldn't be used as much.

PatrickLA_CA
2011-01-21, 09:30
Yeah but there's still too much AA for 30 flares on 4km maps, at least make flares deploy by 2 and make their number to their real life counterpart (Cobra will still have 30 then..).

BenHamish
2011-01-21, 09:38
I'm all for making attack choppers less vulnerable ;)

Edit: But yes, you're right Dtacs.

TheComedian
2011-01-21, 11:03
I'm not asking to make the attack helicopters invulnerable like the huey or the Lynx flying fortress, but at least the splash damage shouldn't cause instant destruction. Which I don't believe happens in reality.

OK the Cobra has thinner armour than most, but what about the heavier Mi-28 Havoc or the Apache? Will they blow up instantly after a proximity hit? I've read that the Apache has multiple redundant computer systems on both sides of the body to prevent catastrophic failure.

It's not fun for the pilots. I would admit if I did a mistake there, but I even throw flares before he gets a lock-on, you can see that he shoots blindly and into the flares clearly because he shoots when I deploy the second pack of 6 flares
Attack Helicopters have no chance at all. I flew a CAS huey on Jabal the same day only to survive multiple proximity hits and when strafing in Jabal flag I was damaged by a BTR-80 and could land at the repair station in East Beach flag

I have been on both sides of the missile and believe me, its wayyy too easy to destroy an attack helicopter just by shooting at the flares. So even if you throw flares you will not dodge the missile.

I think that the problem will be solved by putting iron sights on the stationary AA like on the manpad so the operator doesn't see what he is locked on to and will put less risk in lucky shots. Ofcourse some people will still fire blindly into the flares and score a proximity kill.

LudacrisKill
2011-01-21, 12:35
I think the AA hit the chopper pretty much directly, just bf2 hitboxes are always behind the actual visual.

Sometimes you visually see your AA miss but in actual fact it hits.

BF2 is very much client side visually, you can even shoot without ACTUALLY shooting. For example; you come round a corner as inf as an enemy does the same. You both spray as soon as you can. You get killed but you say 'I shot him 5 times before I died!' If you then ask a squad mate how many times did I fire? He will answer with 'maybe once or twice'. You can even check this by counting how many shots you have left in the mag (if you get revived or find the kit). This mainly depends on ping.

Edit: Make the other choppers just as weak to aa as attack choppers, not the other way around.

Mora
2011-01-25, 08:56
Flares dont even work as they should. Missiles should explode when they come near the flare. But right now they only explode when they get near the helicopter. Flares only bent the missile away and the missile will still go through them and go to the nearest next target.

BenHamish
2011-01-25, 21:10
Huey is invincible on Op Barracuda vs the emplaced AA and Strela. We had a nightmare round last night with the CAS Huey roflpwning our fob again and again despite us scoring hits. One time he even came round after taking a Strela hit to finish us off before RTB.

Probs a mixture of overpowered Hueys and funky hitbox detection. But as far as I was aware Hueys are quite basic with regards to crew and airframe protection - I know PR is a game but frustrating none-the less.

Kain888
2011-01-25, 22:53
We can only hope Huey will get fixed in next patch.

Koolaid-maker
2011-01-29, 14:43
Its for gameplay purposes, you've been here long enough to know that gameplay comes before realism.

If the only transport for infantry died so easily, it wouldn't be used as much.

I totally agree with this one.
On an actual Battlefield, chopper pilots would have way more flying-routes to choose from to avoid enemies seeing/shooting at them.
In PR however, the maps are smaller than in actual reality and its therefore more difficult to evade enemy patrols.

As its not possible to make the maps as big as in Real Life, the alteration that comes closest to useful transport choppers is giving them thicker armor.

Attack choppers however are naturally often close to the enemy and they therefore do not need this alteration of reality.


I hope this is understandable. :I
ALSO: this is solely based on assumptions made by me, Ive never been on a Battlefield before. So please dont flame me when I said something wrong :D

PlaynCool
2011-01-29, 15:33
Yea huey is like a flying tank..2 hits from stationary AA and he was still attacking us no problem.He even maneged to RTB.

General Dragosh
2011-01-29, 15:49
Huey is invincible on Op Barracuda vs the emplaced AA and Strela. We had a nightmare round last night with the CAS Huey roflpwning our fob again and again despite us scoring hits. One time he even came round after taking a Strela hit to finish us off before RTB.

Probs a mixture of overpowered Hueys and funky hitbox detection. But as far as I was aware Hueys are quite basic with regards to crew and airframe protection - I know PR is a game but frustrating none-the less.

2 days ago, very anoying round on muttrah, huey was landing just 30 m away from me, i shot a strela at it, and nothing, they just kept coming unloading their troops

Huey pilots are really too daring and anoying, in reality sane pilots would not even agree to fly in a known AA controlled zone(i train airsoft with a 1st generation ex-pilot from croatia so he told me lots of stuff and he knows he's work), but ingame they act like its tea time

Zerapup
2011-01-29, 15:50
Just increase the armor for attack choppers , so they cant be shot down with 1 AA missile. 2 missiles will be enough to bring it down. It will be good for the gameplay.

Kain888
2011-01-30, 05:14
Just increase the armor for attack choppers , so they cant be shot down with 1 AA missile. 2 missiles will be enough to bring it down. It will be good for the gameplay.

0.o 1234

Mora
2011-01-30, 09:55
Well a little increase wouldn't be so bad. I mean all the transport choppers are much stronger in game while in real life its the opposite.

Captain Chaos
2011-01-30, 11:52
Just increase the armor for attack choppers , so they cant be shot down with 1 AA missile. 2 missiles will be enough to bring it down. It will be good for the gameplay.
Yes and no. The attack helicopters do need to get more armor but a direct hit should still bring it down. The problem are the proximity hits. You can flare all you want but if a missle hits a flare (the AA operator doesn't even have to get a lock. With a bit of luck you can kill even without lock) you are screwed and that's the problem right now. Proximity hits should not instant kill any chopper.

TheComedian
2011-01-30, 15:00
Proximity hits should not instant kill any chopper.

The original idea behind this thread.

PatrickLA_CA
2011-01-30, 16:17
Just increase the armor for attack choppers , so they cant be shot down with 1 AA missile. 2 missiles will be enough to bring it down. It will be good for the gameplay.

Yeah or drastically increase the 30mm autocannon fire power, because it takes you 5-8 direct hits to kill AA or if it is inf it takes more rounds than it should if you hit very close to them.

Kain888
2011-01-30, 23:45
I often fly attack chopper and haven't really experienced any problem with aa vs attack chopper mechanics. and current mechanics seems realistic.

bessert
2011-01-31, 00:16
Nah . That's not correct . The current situation between the aa and the attack chopper is slightly towards aa because of that splash damage and light armor of the attack choppers . An exploded aa missile near your chopper could shot u down immediatly or blow u up on your way back to your helipad . So what needs to be done i think is to increase the attack chopper's armor a bit .
An example relating to aa's splash damage : Some people grap aa kits to take out the caches from a distance . And that really works cos of aa's splash damage .

Kain888
2011-01-31, 00:48
I've been hit by proximity explosion as Cobra, Apache or Havok numerous times and unless I'm hovering or moving very, very slow (like on YT video above) - which I usually do only when I have proper intel on AA threats - I always survive to get to the helipad on 2km maps, almost always on 4km maps, but usually as well. Just use your flares reasonable and rely on team, it should be CAS - support, not lone wolf killing machine.

The only thing I would like to see is to somehow prevent chopper from explosion in main. Sometimes by bad and unrealistic yet reasonable due to map limitations static placement it's hard to emergency land in helipad.

Rudd
2011-01-31, 02:11
Kain does bring up a point, if you are moving slow...you are vulnerable, drop flares and bank right/left while dropping more and you'll be fine tbh.

But you have to accept that sooner or later you are going to get shot down. After 100 rounds of Kashan you didn't get shot down even once; that would indicate something is wrong :)

Psyrus
2011-01-31, 05:32
Nah . That's not correct . The current situation between the aa and the attack chopper is slightly towards aa because of that splash damage and light armor of the attack choppers . An exploded aa missile near your chopper could shot u down immediatly or blow u up on your way back to your helipad Isn't that the point though? AA is the counter to choppers... kinda like how between TOWs and Tanks, the advantage is slightly towards tows because its a smaller target and a 1 hit kill on the tank? What would be the point of AA if the choppers can shrug it off?

Get your ground support to neutralize the AA threats before moving in, or you'll be facing your direct counter and expecting to win in that situation is highly selfish imo (kinda seems like you'd prefer if nothing could down the chopper)

TheComedian
2011-01-31, 09:18
Rudd;1540311']Kain does bring up a point, if you are moving slow...you are vulnerable, drop flares and bank right/left while dropping more and you'll be fine tbh.

Oh and I wasn't dropping flares and begin a dive before he could shoot at me? Have you ever been in a co-pilot seat while bobbing up and down or banking left-right? You can't hit anything unless you go arrow straight because the view has no stabilisation. Laser lock is the only viable option.

(kinda seems like you'd prefer if nothing could down the chopper)

Not nothing but at least reduced. Currently, the chopper can be shot by TOW, APCs, TANKS, AA, HAT, LAT etc. Tell me how thats fair?

Rudd
2011-01-31, 09:24
Oh and I wasn't dropping flares and begin a dive before he could shoot at me? Have you ever been in a co-pilot seat while bobbing up and down or banking left-right? You can't hit anything unless you go arrow straight because the view has no stabilisation. Laser lock is the only viable option.


What I was saying was to survive receiving AA missiles...not about being able to engage while receiving AA missiles.

hellfires are point and click now, you have a chance of destroying the target if you practice. Its not a 100% chance, but it is a chance.

you
are
under
fire

if you don't want your chopper to die, you are to take your shot fast, and get out. If you want to decrease the time it takes for you to take your shot the infantry will have to laze for you. In a game where view distances are relatively short, this is how it has to be.

Total_Overkill
2011-01-31, 09:28
Not nothing but at least reduced. Currently, the chopper can be shot by TOW, APCs, TANKS, AA, HAT, LAT etc. Tell me how thats fair?


Just be glad we're not in Arma2 where i can bring down a trans helo with 6 sniper bullets... :shock:

Mora
2011-01-31, 09:37
Flares are also a issue they don't work as they should. The missiles are not sensitive towards them. I mean the missiles will go to the flare but not proximity explode on them. They will just pass through and possibly still hit the chopper.

Kain888
2011-01-31, 09:54
Not nothing but at least reduced. Currently, the chopper can be shot by TOW, APCs, TANKS, AA, HAT, LAT etc.

Not want to be cruel, but that part really shocked me... If you are being destroyed by LAT (?!), HAT, Tank or APCs you are doing something wrong.



Tell me how thats fair?

0.0 Fair? You mean in relation to what? Game is about balance, teamwork and realism (at least I see it that way), fair is quite empty word. It's not about fair chances in fight apc vs attack chopper, it's about countermeasures. And I bet you will find a lot more of APCs/Tanks drivers who can shout "how is it fair?" question in relation to attack choppers than the other way, I mean such big shiny targets rarely stand a chance to the attack chopper. ;)

Alex6714
2011-01-31, 10:06
I think the issue that was original brought up is the difference between transports and attack, which don?t get the same code treatment. Transport get extra HP so they can have more chance of landing, or survival or whatever, while attack get less HP so that they are easier to kill. Which makes no sense really.

Rudd
2011-01-31, 10:12
I think the issue that was original brought up is the difference between transports and attack, which don?t get the same code treatment. Transport get extra HP so they can have more chance of landing, or survival or whatever, while attack get less HP so that they are easier to kill. Which makes no sense really.

this point is true, I think it was waiting on a redo of the vehicle damage system, however I will bring this up in the team section

PLODDITHANLEY
2011-01-31, 10:19
In the perfect world an attack heli after a hit could have its weapons down but still fly, surely that must happen IRL, damaged but can limp home, or land near a logy truck but that may not be possible here.

I think trans HP is a compromise, yes the BH and Huey are a bit armoured but if they exploded after one AA or RPG that'd be far from ideal too.

I do AA quite alot and get a certain pleasure knowing the pilot is stressed and panicing because of the lock sound, if he is unable to hit his target, safely drop inf or crashes (often see that) because of that - fine.

I think the heli hit points are a delicate tightrope balance constantly being twidled with most releases, as a better hit detection isn't possible we just have to deal with it.

Trans heli 1 direct hit heavy smoke but can still fly around 1.5kms?

Attack helis weapons down still fly 1.5kms?

It would be good if helis had a last minute audible warning with 20 secs of flight time land now or die, no idea if that'd be possible - could lead to some repairs epicness?

But with so much variation in pilot quality always tricky to achieve the ideal compromise.

Kain888
2011-01-31, 10:20
Yeah, trans choppers as Huey are pain in the ass. Pilots have even became reckless flying those. :/

I remember when my full squad was in huey and pilot has proven not really trustworthy when he dived into ground without a reason. Chopper literally crashed its nose into ground (!) and the thing that amazed us was the fact that huey bounced off just smoking. We then jumped out of it with minor bleeding.

PatrickLA_CA
2011-01-31, 11:12
Yes but most of the times I get shot down by AA is because flares don't do anything, I drop flares even before I get locked, I drop when I get locked and I drop after that while doing some manouvers to try to stay alive, but AA somehow gets to lock me and hit me in time range of 1 second, and no, it wasn't an enemy chopper!

TheComedian
2011-01-31, 11:29
Rudd;1540466']What I was saying was to survive receiving AA missiles...not about being able to engage while receiving AA missiles.

I have no complaints that I should run from an incoming AA. I have made peace with the idea.

What I am complaining about is that on certain cases, you don't even get the chance of dodging, or doing barrel roll while looping upwards in response.

There are cases when you get locked even when you put 12 flares as a heat screen. There are cases when AA missle passes the flare and locks on to the chopper. I believe that this is also a bit unrealistic because IRL missiles can't turn 90 degrees as they can in PR in such a short time.

About the APCs (im talking about muttrah here) I know plenty of hiding places where MTLB has a clear shot of the skies for the cobra. Camping under T buildings, camping on hillsides. Too bad if you drive on the road and get shot with a hellfire often but I have a good K/D when facing a cobra.

Wispit
2011-01-31, 13:11
Yeah, trans choppers as Huey are pain in the ass. Pilots have even became reckless flying those. :/

I remember when my full squad was in huey and pilot has proven not really trustworthy when he dived into ground without a reason. Chopper literally crashed its nose into ground (!) and the thing that amazed us was the fact that huey bounced off just smoking. We then jumped out of it with minor bleeding.

Mate, i think you will find that that instance is more an example of the BF2 engine then the huey itself. Ive had a simliar occurence a couple of times in the past (flying the MIG on nilla into a pair of chimneys and just bouncing off with some smoke :shock:) which woudl lead me to belive that was a freak occurence of the engine lol.

Nebsif
2011-03-23, 22:42
So yeah... Had to edit, upload and post this.. because.. just.. HE WAS HOVERING ON THE SAME PLAACE!!! and even then I cant kill him..? guided HAT kit > MANPAD anyday!

1Vw3pSQkL_U
/rage

Acecombatzer0
2011-03-23, 22:54
Wow strange, I never used the Russian MADPAD that much before. But I have to say I have shot down a Havoc from 0.75km away in Silent Eagle with the Stinger.

Then again, the missile does not have to hit the helicopter to destroy it, only explode near it. So I guess the small range in the video balances that out.