PDA

View Full Version : M1A1 Tank a few issues


Davestrike
2010-06-21, 22:37
Devs,

First off, I really like the mod you all put together! Loads of fun!

There are a few issues with how the M1 is setup in the game. I am not sure if any of the issues can be addressed.
Would be nice if they could be. :)

Having been a 19K M1 Tank crewman in Desert Storm, I do know a few things about the tank. :)

1. Main gun sights - The main guns sights are actually located on top of the tank and to the right of the main gun. The gunner does not see the main gun barrel when he is looking in the sights, he does see the targeting reticle though. In game, the main gun sight is on the left of the main barrel and you can see the barrel.

2. Commander's MG - the commander uses a .50 cal. MG, correctly done in the game. Not done correctly is the sighting. The commander cannot see through the sights of the mg while he is standing up and exposing his upper torso. Yes he can control the mg by reaching inside the tank and using the joystick. The ammo bin stores 100 rnds. of ammo. There is an additional 900 rnds. stored on the tank for the .50 cal.

Below is a picture of the gunner's station and part of the commander's station. Please note the sights.

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/abrams/images/abram8.jpg

Please note the sight located on the top of the picture and the joystick next to it, those are the commander's controls for the .50 cal. The commander must be inside the tank to use the sights. Pretty much the only way a commander would use them!

Note the sight about the middle of the picture, has a black head rest above it. This is the gunner's main sight. Below and to the lleft of the sight is the secondary main gun sight. This looks right down the right side of the main gun, gunner cannot see the barrel.

Please note in the picture another joystick that is located to the very right side of the picture. This is the commander's over-ride joystick to the main gun. It allows him to move the main gun and turrent in a direction he needs it so the gunner can aim in on enemies.

3. M240 Coxial mounted gunner's MG - This is located on the right side of the main gun. It has a hopper for storing 12,400 rnds. Not the 100 rnds. as it is in the game. Look at the picture above, you can see the rear of the mg to the left of the secondary sight.

4. Loader's M240 MG - It has a 100 rnd. ammo bin with another 400 rnds. stored on the tank. The M1, M1A1, and M1A1 Heavy did not have a gun shield for the loader's mg.

Not sure if any of this can be modified to fit the reality of the tank.

Thank you for reading this.

Davestrike

Rudd
2010-06-21, 22:51
welcome to the forums and thank you for your service, servicemen are welcome here :)

thanks for the information, the loaders m240 was removed from teh model afaik as there is only 64 people ingame it was felt to be a misappropriation of resources :)

2. Commander's MG - the commander uses a .50 cal. MG, correctly done in the game. Not done correctly is the sighting. The commander cannot see through the sights of the mg while he is standing up and exposing his upper torso. Yes he can control the mg by reaching inside the tank and using the joystick. The ammo bin stores 100 rnds. of ammo. There is an additional 900 rnds. stored on the tank for the .50 cal.

I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean, ingame atm the commander is a combined driver/commander position to compensate for the 64 player limit, he can only operate the 50cal MG if he moves to teh 50cal position, at which point his body is sticking out and can use the sights or he can crouch and not see anything, the 50cal ingame is the normal m2 rather than a CROWs system so I don't understand how a joystick comes in to it? I'm not a serviceman so forgive me civilianism :P

anglomanii
2010-06-21, 23:01
i think he is talking about the periscope sighting system used to operate the commanders 50cal, if it's the same on the aussie m1a1-sa it is controlled from under armor, the only reason a commander unbuttons his position is to observe and not to operate the weapon.

essentially (from my limited experiance) it is a power operated gun but not a RWS, which are being fitted now.
@davestrike, i would love to have a chat about this, PM me if you want.

cheers ANGLO.

havoc1482
2010-06-21, 23:43
The issue I have with the Tank ingame is that the only person that can view long distances in 360 degrees is the gunner and that places a handicap on the crew.

Rudd
2010-06-21, 23:45
havok, press F as the driver and you get the commander view

havoc1482
2010-06-21, 23:46
Rudd;1371988']havok, press F as the driver and you get the commander view

Damn I feel stupid now. I was on a PR server asking of there was a way to do that and everyone said idk.

Davestrike
2010-06-22, 03:26
[R-CON]Rudd,

I understand the need to have the one person M1 model setup so the driver and commander/gunner are one position. Makes sense for control of the resources.

anglomanii has the right of it. The Commander controls the M2 .50 cal. from within the tank by using the periscope that is also a sight slaved to the mount of the .50 cal. He moves the mount around up/down/left/right by use of a joystick control. When you look at the picture, notice the black joystick that has a black cord dangling off it? That is the control for the .50 cal.

By setting up the .50 cal. this way, the M1 loses the copula miniturrent that was used on the later M60 tank versions. That used to house the commander's MG. It is much simpler to maintain and care for than what was on the M60 tanks.

I can understand about removing the M240 for the loader position. Makes sence when you can only have a max of 64 players.

As to the way the .50 cal is handled now, maybe the view position could be changed so if the operator changes to the commander's position only, he is still inside the tank and can use the sights from that position without exposing himself to enemy fire.

He can click back to the driver/commander/gunner position to operate the main gun and move the tank.

As for the CROWs system. I know that is on HMMVees now. It is not what was used on the M1. Maybe the later versions of the M1A2 and newer. I served on the M1A1 Heavy. CROWs uses a video feed doesn't it? Would not be a bad idea on an M1. :)

The M1 was a marvel of design for armor. Look at the picture again, notice a yoke arrangment towards the bottom of the picture, just below the rear of the main gun. That is the gunner's control yoke for the turrent direction and main gun elevation controls.

The driver has a simular yoke to drive the tank with. With the transmition controls on the center of the yoke. By the way, the M1 has Neutral, reverse, Drive 1 and Drive 2 and is completely automatic! There is a gas pedal and brake at the driver
s feet.

I love playing the Kashan Desert map, for the simple reason I get to control an M1! Usually the only thing that kills me is the dang Frogfoot plane! That dang thing's bombs! Or a friendly fire hit from a pilot that cannot tell the difference from an M1 and T90!

Davestrike

anglomanii
2010-06-22, 05:03
thanks dave, i only know about the aussie M1a1-AIM-SA, bassiclly (if i have this right) the RWS .50 QCB has replaced the commanders M2 and the loader has inherited the old commanders system for the MAG58. even though i understand why the devs have limited the places on the M1 i would personally think having it set up with 4 positions would be be best now that most of the deployed tanks have been upgraded to the latest standard and even though it does limit boots on the ground it might improve combat effectivenes in asymetric conflicts.

Excavus
2010-06-22, 05:54
I think the devs should just add 4 positions anyways. All of them do not HAVE to be manned at the same time, just be there incase it is ever needed. I love to have a machine gunner in my tank at all times when I'm a tank commander, they can really save your ass in insurgency. With this extra seat, I can turn off the engine without even leaving the tank.

Rudd
2010-06-22, 07:27
I think the devs should just add 4 positions anyways. All of them do not HAVE to be manned at the same time, just be there incase it is ever needed. I love to have a machine gunner in my tank at all times when I'm a tank commander, they can really save your ass in insurgency. With this extra seat, I can turn off the engine without even leaving the tank.

the thing is though mate, that the loader is meant to use the m240 :P

Draakon
2010-06-22, 08:44
I think the devs should just add 4 positions anyways. All of them do not HAVE to be manned at the same time, just be there incase it is ever needed. I love to have a machine gunner in my tank at all times when I'm a tank commander, they can really save your ass in insurgency. With this extra seat, I can turn off the engine without even leaving the tank.

A big no! There would be no infantry then. Everyone would be a tank whore.

Excavus
2010-06-22, 09:44
A big no! There would be no infantry then. Everyone would be a tank whore.

Did you even read what I said? I said it did not have to be manned. It's an extra seat for whoever wants it. I always have 3 guys in my tank, so the .50 position is taken up. With this extra M240 seat, I can sit in it to turn the engine off without ever leaving my tank.

Eddie Baker
2010-06-23, 00:19
Rudd;1371957']I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean, ingame atm the commander is a combined driver/commander position to compensate for the 64 player limit, he can only operate the 50cal MG if he moves to teh 50cal position, at which point his body is sticking out and can use the sights or he can crouch and not see anything, the 50cal ingame is the normal m2 rather than a CROWs system so I don't understand how a joystick comes in to it? I'm not a serviceman so forgive me civilianism :P

On the M1 and M1A1 the commander has the ability to lay and fire the M2 in his cupola from under armor with the hatch fully "buttoned-up." There is a 3x periscope sight on the commander's cupola and the cupola itself is power traversed. Because of the additional two rounds of ammunition, the CITV and other black boxes/C4ISR gear stuffed in that is no longer possible/practical on the M1A2, which is why they are being retrofit with CROWS.

anglomanii
2010-06-23, 04:22
@eddie, how is the loaders weapon employed on the latest models?

i was lead to believe its a powered unit too.

Darknecron
2010-06-28, 17:23
Rudd;1371957']
ingame atm the commander is a combined driver/commander position to compensate for the 64 player limit,

You guys need to break that 64 player limit lol. That would be epic...or, just more epic than it is now. :P

Draakon
2010-06-28, 18:03
Did you even read what I said? I said it did not have to be manned. It's an extra seat for whoever wants it. I always have 3 guys in my tank, so the .50 position is taken up. With this extra M240 seat, I can sit in it to turn the engine off without ever leaving my tank.

Giving more spots in tank whatever their role is=less infantry.

Nosferatu
2010-06-28, 19:05
In case with 4 positions, loader have to be limited on using his M240 while reloading main gun;)

killonsight95
2010-06-28, 19:46
You guys need to break that 64 player limit lol. That would be epic...or, just more epic than it is now. :P

hardcoded, for now that is :]

LoliBattleMachine
2010-06-28, 19:49
I think that the best solution while still having 3 positions is to have one position as a driver/commander. The driver/commander will have the same position as he does now, starting in a driver position and hitting F to view the commander periscope but instead of just a periscope, he is also aiming an M2 HMG. The gunner position will remain the same, and the third position will be a top turret gunner wielding an M240 acting as the loader.

Kill001
2010-06-28, 20:02
hardcoded, for now that is :]

afaik people who hack in games like BF2 have to actually buy hacks (the good ones, anyway), and the reason why people buy them is so the hacker people can fund the people who look at the code for BF2 so they can get around the punkbuster b& and such (don't ask me how I know this and NO, I don't hack because it detracts from the whole purpose of the challenge of the game)

we should hire coders ourselves so maybe we could get around this :)

on topic: loader's M240 DO WANT :)

but less infantry :(

Raic
2010-06-29, 01:06
hardcoded, for now that is :]

Wasn't it agreed that bf2.exe would need to be edited and it could be done? Finding way to do that legally is completely another thing.

Rudd
2010-06-29, 01:09
Wasn't it agreed that bf2.exe would need to be edited and it could be done? Finding way to do that legally is completely another thing.

you can whip a dead horse all you want mate, but it isn't going anywhere

now return to the topic at hand - the m1a1

question is would you want to see the 50cal, driver position, m240 all manned at the same time while the tank main gun is firing?

the driver is the commander, and may need the seat to shut the engine off without getting out, the m240 is manned by the loader so the main gun can't reload while he's on it....there would have to be something to stop the m240 firing every time the main gun reloads...and that would be very frustrating :P

SamEEE
2010-09-05, 18:04
Bit of a necropost but I think that the tank 50 cal gunner should sit lower in the cupola and also be able to use binos to spot.

Uthric
2010-09-06, 06:03
keep the 3 seats and make the 50cal into a crow problem solved...


the m1a1 in game now from what he is saying is done wrong

thay should all be crow like

Hunt3r
2010-09-06, 06:42
Well, in theory we could let the driver operate the 50 cal CROWS if there is ever one put in on the tanks, and then give an M240 that could also be operated by a person who could load and fire at the same time, just for the sake of argument. Let's suppose they installed an autoloader but kept the loader as a backup crewman and general mechanic.

Rissien
2010-09-06, 17:12
I think that the best solution while still having 3 positions is to have one position as a driver/commander. The driver/commander will have the same position as he does now, starting in a driver position and hitting F to view the commander periscope but instead of just a periscope, he is also aiming an M2 HMG. The gunner position will remain the same, and the third position will be a top turret gunner wielding an M240 acting as the loader.

Only problem with giving driver weapons control is hes gonna start stopping just to get kills himself. When tank is stopped, I always have the .50 gunner keep an eye on our rear, unless hes engaging something or absent then driver is. If everyone has a weapon, everyone will start shooting at targets and no one will be watching the flanks.

Hunt3r
2010-09-07, 03:03
H[=Rissien;1435225']Only problem with giving driver weapons control is hes gonna start stopping just to get kills himself. When tank is stopped, I always have the .50 gunner keep an eye on our rear, unless hes engaging something or absent then driver is. If everyone has a weapon, everyone will start shooting at targets and no one will be watching the flanks.

All the better for the person flanking the tank. I'm pretty sure that the person using the M240 up top will probably be attempting to look around, and the driver too, seeing as how the gunner is the only one with decent zoom optics.

Uthric
2010-09-23, 17:54
i know i would use the 50cal on ins maps to cover the tank more if it was a crow less getting sniped out, thats why most of the time you never see a tank on a ins map with a 50 gunner

Smiddey723
2010-09-23, 18:32
Adding the CROW system to tanks has been discussed so many times and tbh i know why everyone has ignored it, the tank would turn into a super killing machine if it has a crow system which would destroy gameplay for the infantry trying to tackle it. Giving the ability for the driver to control a CROW system would also mean the gunner has an easy job as the driver wouldnt have to point out infantry for him anymore as he can just blast them away himself which also has a negative effect on teamwork

karambaitos
2010-09-23, 19:59
H[=Rissien;1435225']Only problem with giving driver weapons control is hes gonna start stopping just to get kills himself. When tank is stopped, I always have the .50 gunner keep an eye on our rear, unless hes engaging something or absent then driver is. If everyone has a weapon, everyone will start shooting at targets and no one will be watching the flanks.

if you play vanilla then yes, but if you play with someone with half a brain things like that wont happen, he will know what to do and if he doesnt you as the gunner can tell him to watch the flanks.
anyway did there use to be a crow system for the tanks in pr back in .7???

amazing_retard
2010-09-23, 20:59
I agree it would make the tank overpowered :/