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View Full Version : AA missles of Frogfoot and A-10


Gammlgandalf13
2010-06-05, 23:22
It seems to me like these missles were a bit useless, each time I see a F16 crossing my path i can't lock him, even if he is about 200 m away from me.
Frogfoot and Mig carry the same "Sidewinder" rockets right? But it seems that the range of the Mig's is much bigger than the Frogfoot's one.
If you sit in Frog/A10 it's more about luck to shoot down enemy Jets.


How's your opinion experience about that.

richyrich55
2010-06-05, 23:48
As far as I know, there are two different AA missiles. Short Range and Long Range if I'm not mistaken.

You just have to get lucky and catch the opposing fighter jet slowing down or something or if you know exactly where he/she is, try to come down on top of them.


Ground attack jets are not meant to kill fighter jets as they are less agile and are alot slower.

Drunkenup
2010-06-05, 23:54
IMO, SRMs are bullshit in PR, they should be able to lock on as soon as the target is visual. The SU-25 and MiG-29 use the AA-11, or R-73 Archer in game, which is pretty much coded the same as the AIM-9 Sidewinder.
Plus if your in a attack jet, and you encounter a dedicated fighter like a F-16, doctrine dictates you get the hell out of there, cause you don't stand a chance.

Gammlgandalf13
2010-06-06, 11:54
...they should be able to lock on as soon as the target is visual.

Thats the Point.

Long Range are the AIM-9 (Sidewinder) and short range are eeer AIM-120 right, but A10 and Frog are armed with the long range missles aren't they?

AaronFraher
2010-06-06, 12:03
Thats the Point.

Long Range are the AIM-9 (Sidewinder) and short range are eeer AIM-120 right, but A10 and Frog are armed with the long range missles aren't they?

AIM-120 = MRM
AIM-9M = SRM

masterceo
2010-06-06, 12:07
no

AIM-9 Sidewinder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-9_Sidewinder) Short range AA missile
AIM-120 AMRAAM - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM_120) Medium range AA missile

All planes carry AIM9 or the equivalent, but only MiG29 and F16 carry 2 additional AIM120 (or russian equivalent) of that missile

I was able to shoot down a good pilot in a F16 with a frogfoot back in 0.85, if nothing to these missiles has been changed your argument is invalid. It took great amount of concentration but you can pull it off.

Hitman.2.5
2010-06-06, 13:38
CAS aircraft a very agile the A-10 especially as it was designed to turn withing a small radius and the lower speed makes them more agile.

chrisweb89
2010-06-09, 15:43
I also have noticed that at the same ranges where my AIM-9s or equivalent would lock onto the target with a Fighter jet, the Aim-9s or equivalent on the ground attack planes won't show the heat signature until I am in a lot closer than I normally would have to be. I find with this very small range of the short range AAs, I have had better luck with only cannons just putting a wall of lead into their flight direction and you only need to score a few hits for them to blow up.

masterceo
2010-06-09, 16:08
Remember, it's for gameplay's sake. If you'd portray their ranges realistically even the AIM9 could lock onto planes on the other side of the map.
AIM9 or equivalent is a short range missile, that's why you have to get close to your target. If you can destroy enemy jet from longer range with cannon that's even better for you, since he won't even know you have him in your crosshairs.

Alex6714
2010-06-09, 16:17
Remember, it's for gameplay's sake. If you'd portray their ranges realistically even the AIM9 could lock onto planes on the other side of the map.
AIM9 or equivalent is a short range missile, that's why you have to get close to your target. If you can destroy enemy jet from longer range with cannon that's even better for you, since he won't even know you have him in your crosshairs.

Thats very well but I think the point was the cas aim9s having a smaller range than the fighter aim9s (and opfor equivalents).

chrisweb89
2010-06-10, 01:13
Alex is correct in what I meant, I realize all weapon ranges need to be scaled down from their RL capabilities or we wouldn't see our enemy because of the view distance.

Gammlgandalf13
2010-06-13, 10:44
Thats very well but I think the point was the cas aim9s having a smaller range than the fighter aim9s (and opfor equivalents).


Thats it! The Ranges are much smaller as it seems to me.

Elektro
2010-06-13, 18:11
In my humble opinion, if the short range missiles actually had their speed decreased and first began moving to their targets after 1 or 2 sec, the whole idea of CAS planes having a less radius wouldnt matter. What the short radius means is that u cant just snap shoot at the F-16 / Mig-29. Hell, even Ace Combat 3 has prevented this :D ( I was bored and found a cool PS-1 game:p )

The decreased speed would mean that you have to be within a certain angle and speed to make your missile find way to its target. Also isn't a single missile meaning instant death abit bad too? I remember that in Falcon 4.0 Allied Forces I always had around 5 sec to eject after taking a hit. This would also mean alot more cool female voice sounds -> Warning Warning - Pull up - Chaff flare out, and lots more

Zoddom
2010-06-13, 18:36
@Topic:

The point is, that MiG-29/J-10 and F-16/Typhoon have an active radar system. CAS bombers like A-10 and Su-25 only have passive radar, or even only a RWR system (Frogfoot).
You cant lock at the same distances as fighters because the AIM-9/R-60 only work heat-seeking for bombers (although you get a lock warning , but thats another issue).

Elektro
2010-06-13, 18:49
@Topic:

The point is, that MiG-29/J-10 and F-16/Typhoon have an active radar system. CAS bombers like A-10 and Su-25 only have passive radar, or even only a RWR system (Frogfoot).
You cant lock at the same distances as fighters because the AIM-9/R-60 only work heat-seeking for bombers (although you get a lock warning , but thats another issue).

You ussually spot your target with radar before you go in for a heat seaking missile. But in PR you will spot him 100% with the power of the eye.

AaronFraher
2010-06-13, 19:46
@Topic:

The point is, that MiG-29/J-10 and F-16/Typhoon have an active radar system. CAS bombers like A-10 and Su-25 only have passive radar, or even only a RWR system (Frogfoot).
You cant lock at the same distances as fighters because the AIM-9/R-60 only work heat-seeking for bombers (although you get a lock warning , but thats another issue).

They are Heat-Seeking the whole time. Regardless of aquisition mode. The advantage radar gives you is that it automatically slaves the seeker head to the target and provides you with a range ring as well as velocity/alt information. The downside ofcourse is that if the E/A has an RWR if can tell its being locked, unless a mode such as RWS-SAM is used.

Using radar for aquisition purposes does not increase the range of the missile whatsoever.

chrisweb89
2010-06-13, 19:53
@Topic:

The point is, that MiG-29/J-10 and F-16/Typhoon have an active radar system. CAS bombers like A-10 and Su-25 only have passive radar, or even only a RWR system (Frogfoot).
You cant lock at the same distances as fighters because the AIM-9/R-60 only work heat-seeking for bombers (although you get a lock warning , but thats another issue).

Sorry if I missunderstood you, but from my limited knowledge, the short range AAs on fighters and attack jets would both have the exact same range since their guidance, tracking, and weapon are the exact same except for the aircraft carrying them.

Zoddom
2010-06-13, 21:04
the shorter range with bombers simulates the shorter range of IR sensor in comparison to radar systems in fighters.
You all should know that radar has a much bigger FOV than heat seeking systems (EOS).
furthermore i think that heatseeking missiles are passively radar guided with active radar.

Hunt3r
2010-06-13, 22:00
Allow me to clear up some falsehoods on this topic.

The A-10 and Frogfoot are both armed with heat-seeking missiles. The air superiority/multi-role aircraft also have the EXACT same missiles. However, the multi-role aircraft also should have BVR missiles, either the R-73 or AIM-120 AMRAAM.

In theory there should be no difference in range between an AIM-9X fired by an F-16 and one fired by an A-10. However, the difference is that A-10s fly slower. This means that the AIM-9X would be imparted with less velocity from the start, thus it has reduced range.

If PR had more realistic AA missiles heatseekers would lock on as soon as something within boresight enters view distance, and BVR missiles would lock up aircraft at up to 2 KM away in game.

Elektro
2010-06-13, 22:03
furthermore i think that heatseeking missiles are passively radar guided with active radar.

Pilots can use radar, a helmet mounted sight, an optical sight, or just point the aircrafts nose towards its target, this allows the seeker to recognize the target and once the missile has been uncaged, it will track its target by the emissions of electromagnetic radiation in the IR part of the spectrum.

It will in most cases take time for the missile to move on a right track as it has to wait for its motor to kick in and make the fins control direction. This is why SRMs in PR are way too fast at hitting their target in my oppinion.

EDIT:

If PR had more realistic AA missiles heatseekers would lock on as soon as something within boresight enters view distance.

Indeed, problem is that hitting a target 12 degrees from you while comming at more than 2000km/h straight towards you might be abit too unrealistic.

Zoddom
2010-06-14, 00:42
Allow me to clear up some falsehoods on this topic.

The A-10 and Frogfoot are both armed with heat-seeking missiles. The air superiority/multi-role aircraft also have the EXACT same missiles. However, the multi-role aircraft also should have BVR missiles, either the R-73 or AIM-120 AMRAAM.

In theory there should be no difference in range between an AIM-9X fired by an F-16 and one fired by an A-10. However, the difference is that A-10s fly slower. This means that the AIM-9X would be imparted with less velocity from the start, thus it has reduced range.

If PR had more realistic AA missiles heatseekers would lock on as soon as something within boresight enters view distance, and BVR missiles would lock up aircraft at up to 2 KM away in game.
BUT THATS NOT WHAT OP MEANT.
he meant that the distance at which the A-10s sidewinders can lock is smaller than with fighters.
and thats good because it simulates the lack of radar with bombers.

ps:
FACT is that you can lock much earlier with radar than with EOS irl. fact is taht sidewinders of an a-10 have a lower velocity as ones of an f-16 because of the airspeed difference.
AND if something enters your viewdistance doesnt mean that you can directly lock on with eos irl. it depends on the type of target, the angle and the weather conditions hardly!

AaronFraher
2010-06-14, 13:38
BUT THATS NOT WHAT OP MEANT.
he meant that the distance at which the A-10s sidewinders can lock is smaller than with fighters.
and thats good because it simulates the lack of radar with bombers.

ps:
FACT is that you can lock much earlier with radar than with EOS irl. fact is taht sidewinders of an a-10 have a lower velocity as ones of an f-16 because of the airspeed difference.
AND if something enters your viewdistance doesnt mean that you can directly lock on with eos irl. it depends on the type of target, the angle and the weather conditions hardly!


Fact is that acquiring lock with radar does nothing to increase the actual range of the missile. There are some cases when you have a locked target indicated inside Rmax1 on the range scale, but there is no "Growl" emitted from the AAM. If a shot was taken here, the missile would fly dumb off the rail and not track. The difference in KTAS is negligible WRT the ranges we have in PR, and please dont retort with "Oh, but theres a 1000km/h difference in IAS between the A-10 and the F-16", because speeds mean absolutely nothing in PR. Here are some examples. Its possible to get a UH-1 to M.85 at MSL. The Vref of the A-10 in PR is 320KIAS, and the list goes on.

Please try not to cite realism as an excuse for a flaw on the part of the game, especially when the knowledge you present in incorrect and limited.

Hitman.2.5
2010-06-14, 13:43
BUT THATS NOT WHAT OP MEANT.
he meant that the distance at which the A-10s sidewinders can lock is smaller than with fighters.
and thats good because it simulates the lack of radar with bombers.

ps:
FACT is that you can lock much earlier with radar than with EOS irl. fact is taht sidewinders of an a-10 have a lower velocity as ones of an f-16 because of the airspeed difference.
AND if something enters your viewdistance doesnt mean that you can directly lock on with eos irl. it depends on the type of target, the angle and the weather conditions hardly!

There are no weather conditions in PR apart from low view distance that simulates Fog/Dust it should not matter about radar on the F-16 and A-10 in relation to the AIM-9M as the missiles should be exactly the same as they both use HEAT to track and lock its target...

Zoddom
2010-06-14, 13:51
you both just dont get that f*ckin OPs point !!!!!!!!!!!!
PLEASE READ BEFORE YOU POST!

THE DISCUSSION WAS NEVER ABOUT THE RANGE OF MISSILES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AND I NEVER SAID RADAR INCREASES THE RANGE OF MISSILES, NEVER EVER!!!!!!!!!!

AaronFraher
2010-06-14, 14:05
In PR, lock = In range for shot. I'm really struggling to see the point you are trying to make Zoddom. If you lock up with the F-16 and take a shot then you should be able to do the exact same thing in the A-10.
I'm not going to explain everything again so just refer to my previous post.

Narco
2010-06-14, 14:15
you both just dont get that f*ckin OPs point !!!!!!!!!!!!
PLEASE READ BEFORE YOU POST!

THE DISCUSSION WAS NEVER ABOUT THE RANGE OF MISSILES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AND I NEVER SAID RADAR INCREASES THE RANGE OF MISSILES, NEVER EVER!!!!!!!!!!


http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o286/VespertineIconoclast/obamam-lol-y-u-mad-tho.jpg

Zoddom
2010-06-14, 14:19
......... then i explain:
OP said you cant lock with bombers as far as with jets.
THIS is due to simulation of EOS/radar, in which the fighters have an avantage.
and if you locked with bombers you also can launch and hit BUT the enemy has to be much nearer than in fighters..

and dont try again to tell me that you can lock with bombers as early as with fighters cause both carry the same missiles. if youve selected the first weapon slot in F-16, the HUD sais "Radar OFF". so when you switch weapons radar will be activated ---> possibility to lock earlier than with A-10, WHICH HAS NO RADAR.

get it now?

-Prowler-
2010-06-14, 14:31
So...you can't lock enemy targets at the same range? Didn't they explain this earlier in the thread..with the radar?

AaronFraher
2010-06-14, 14:34
......... then i explain:
OP said you cant lock with bombers as far as with jets.
THIS is due to simulation of EOS/radar, in which the fighters have an avantage.
and if you locked wit

and dont try again to tell me that you can lock with bombers as early as with fighters cause both carry the same missiles. if youve selected the first weapon slot in F-16, the HUD sais "Radar OFF". so when you switch weapons radar will be activated ---> possibility to lock earlier than with A-10, WHICH HAS NO RADAR.

get it now?

Yes, this is true, and i've never said anything contrary to it. But what you dont seem to get is just because you can lock further out DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE IN RANGE TO SHOOT (Seen as you seem to be a fan of Caps). Seen as you seem to think that PR is a "Simulation", why dont you decrease the Range of the AIM-9M on the F-16 then? And tell me when did i ever say that you can lock as early with "bombers", as fighters? You seem to have a small amount of knowledge on the subject, then misinterpret what people say and pull stuff out of your arse tbh.

Zoddom
2010-06-14, 14:57
Yes, this is true, and i've never said anything contrary to it. But what you dont seem to get is just because you can lock further out DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE IN RANGE TO SHOOT
but the lock range of an EOS isnt the max range of a missile either.
but what advantage would fighters have ingame if they can lock further but having a max range of EOS lock of the bombers?
you cant even speak of range in PR, because every missile has infinitive range i think

AaronFraher
2010-06-14, 15:12
but the lock range of an EOS isnt the max range of a missile either.
but what advantage would fighters have ingame if they can lock further but having a max range of EOS lock of the bombers?
you cant even speak of range in PR, because every missile has infinitive range i think

Look, you clearly dont seem to get that a Shot taken at Rmax1 has a terrible quality of lock and wont track. You fail to see my point every single time, as such this will be my last reply on the topic.

Cp
2010-06-14, 15:25
Technically, An R-73 or AIM-9 launched from a F-16 or MIG-29 would have a longer range than if they were fired from a SU-25 or an A-10 since the F-16 and MIG-29 can go much faster, also a missile fired from an A-10 at a MIG-29 from the behind would have a shorter range since the MIG is flying faster (same for an Su-25 vs F-16) but I don't think that can be simulated in PR, so its probably better to have the same range on all short range missiles.

(the su-25 shouldn't even be carrying the R-73, it should be carrying the R-60, but thats just me being unnecessarily picky :p)

Zoddom
2010-06-14, 15:34
Technically, An R-73 or AIM-9 launched from a F-16 or MIG-29 would have a longer range than if they were fired from a SU-25 or an A-10 since the F-16 and MIG-29 can go much faster, also a missile fired from an A-10 at a MIG-29 from the behind would have a shorter range since the MIG is flying faster (same for an Su-25 vs F-16) but I don't think that can be simulated in PR, so its probably better to have the same range on all short range missiles.
youre wrong, technically every missile has the same range, it just wont reach the MiG inside of this range cause it goes too fast.
aaron was right, the difference between the IAS is negligible, i think it wont even make a difference of half a km

all missiles have already the same range in pr.
the only thing they can simulate is the effectiveness of radar/EOS.

@Aaron:
start talking clearly then i will understand, and stick to the conditions of PR.
-> all missiles have the same infinitive range. so they can only simulate ..... read above.

Naruto-kun
2010-06-14, 17:01
I used one missle in the dogfight in this video(had only one there) it missed but its still usable in Attacker vs Attacker since they are able to keep up with each other.
eoJuxrd6cus

Zoddom
2010-06-14, 17:26
yea but normally you only enter dogfight with an a-10 if the enemy is coming from your 12 anyway.

Elektro
2010-06-14, 17:59
yea but normally you only enter dogfight with an a-10 if the enemy is coming from your 12 anyway.

Thats more of a personal opinion :)

thingemajib
2010-06-14, 21:58
CAS aircraft a very agile the A-10 especially as it was designed to turn withing a small radius and the lower speed makes them more agile.

but in the laser weapon a10/f16, pitch is stupidly sluggish (i guess this simulates the weight of the missiles/bombs on the airframe)

Hunt3r
2010-06-14, 22:13
An A-10 entering in a dogfight with a faster opponent becomes VERY vulnerable to boom and zoom tactics.

Drunkenup
2010-06-15, 01:18
An A-10 entering in a dogfight with a faster opponent becomes VERY vulnerable to boom and zoom tactics.

Thats precisely why if you're gonna dogfight in the A-10, make sure you have the clear advantage; otherwise you will be screwed over by faster, more agile fighters with higher A/A payload like a MiG-29, or SU-30.

Scheble
2010-08-14, 20:21
Agreed and I would much rather use my cannon THEN use your AIMs plus the faster opponent can easily outmaneuver you so I guess just DONT get into one in the first place.