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View Full Version : [Question] MAG58's vs SR25s?


Truism
2009-09-05, 11:51
It's pretty late in the development cycle to be brining this up, but isn't it a little odd that SR25's which don't feature heavily in doctrine are being wedged in so that Australia can have a DM class when the gun group carries a MAG58 in Afghanistan and it's planned that the section will have it's gun replaced by a MAG58 in all the battalions soon?

In reality most ARA personel have never seen an SR25 before and employment of DMs isn't taught to officers or NCOs in our Army. Why is the ADF going to have a DM class when our army doesn't have DMs? A lot of things have been excused for the sake of balance in terms of tweaking minor details and capabilities, but changing the basic layout of an Army's section is probably a step too far.

Basically, will the ADF get an FN MAG for the gunner, or are we going to have the DM indefinately?

anglomanii
2009-09-06, 09:55
MAG 58 gsmg, is already issued to all ARA active groups, as the second section gun, the first section gun as we all know is the F89 lsw. this is mostly due to upgrades from land 91
sr25's are being rolled out to units on a platoon basis, (also land 91 ) (i am looking into a lead that may suggest a F88a4 iw variant, might be in consideration for this role in the next roll out and test phase.)

all this comes under the developments from land125 under MAJ Thomas Basan (land development branch)

Tonnie
2009-09-07, 00:40
OK, so i can see where ur coming from and i agree... but theres always the balence issue, i mean if i could have it my way a section would look like this

1 Seco
2 Riflemen
1 F89 minimi
1 Mag58
1 Medic

And on top of that every second guy would have a m72A6, most would have GLAs attached then also have f1 nades... As much as this would be alot more realistic we have to take into account that the OPFOR would get the ass's handed to them and there for we must watch the balence.

tonnie

Tirak
2009-09-09, 12:46
Not to go completely off topic or anything, but perhaps the Rifleman (Irons) (If you guys are going to have one, the Steyr thread seems to indicate otherwise), could have one or two LAWs instead of frag and incendiary grenades. You trade numbers for range. I'm not entirely sure how equal a Frag grenade would be to a LAW, but it's a thought.

Jimbom
2009-09-09, 20:44
Our Iron Sight Rifleman equivalent in the Australian Army is a soldier armed with an F88 Austeyr with a 1.5x optical sight.

The M72A6 (LAW) is carried at section level (Squad) by two or more Rifleman depending on how many are available. The LAW is our army's equivalent of a L-AT kit with a range of ~250 and a rocket able to punch through 150mm of modern armour the explosion they make when you miss and hit the ground I can tell you from experience is pretty big.

In terms of balance if everyone could spawn with an Inf raping rocket launcher instead of Grenades then the other team is just going to disappear in a hail of firey rocket flavoured death!

anglomanii
2009-09-10, 02:29
@ JimBom: yeah but you only get one, and as they are not a fragmentation warhead, the actual kill zone, is not as big as some other weapons, i simply think the law would be best if it was deployed more closely to how we actually do it. we just don't have the big guided missiles that other forces do. so in this respect i think we are handicapped as a representation of a modern military force.

@ all others: i really have to agree with Tonnie on this as, the ADF is simply not built along the lines of other forces. essentially we are a rifleman's army and this is still the core of our forces today. yes we have mechanized and motorized elements, but we still deploy our teams in a manner that has taken us over 100 years to evolve into.

from what i have read, watched and talked about with ADF personnel in some ways we seem to be the professional insurgent force. it is often our forces infiltrating the enemies area's coursing disruption, creating confusion and turning the local population against its occupiers.

Truism
2009-09-10, 06:47
Tonnie;1131382']
And on top of that every second guy would have a m72A6, most would have GLAs attached then also have f1 nades... As much as this would be alot more realistic we have to take into account that the OPFOR would get the ass's handed to them and there for we must watch the balence.

tonnie

Our GLA class should be outfitted as our grenadiers are - no smoke shells, at least 12 HE rounds, as well as frag grenades.

Give the HAT kit smoke rockets instead.

Replace the AA kit with something else, like a signaller class.

Take the binocs off all the kits bar the Officer, use the slot for something we actually use.

Use the Marksman slot for the MAG.

Rifle classes need more F1's, between four and six.

So what if ADF infantry is stronger? We are an infantry centric Army built around the individual soldier and sections capabilities. The ADF has always operated with the belief that anything the infantry section can't do, the platoon can with use of correct support. As an Army our infantry are second to none and can achieve anything with correct support and leadership - Beersheba, Le Hamel, Bardia, Tobruk, Kapyong, Long Tan, FSB Coral all demonstrate this fact.

It wouldn't be bad at all to see the ADF get more challenging scenarios and perhaps less access to vehicular support in return for more accurate loadouts that would allow us to function more like we do in real life.

Of course there's no way the Devs would allow a force to deviate so far from the template, which is unfortunate.


from what i have read, watched and talked about with ADF personnel in some ways we seem to be the professional insurgent force. it is often our forces infiltrating the enemies area's coursing disruption, creating confusion and turning the local population against its occupiers.

Hit it on the head.

anglomanii
2009-09-10, 07:30
i dont want to blow smoke up ya butt mate, but you do have some good points there.

Our GLA class should be outfitted as our grenadiers are - no smoke shells, at least 12 HE rounds, as well as frag grenades.

Give the HAT kit smoke rockets instead.

Replace the AA kit with something else, like a signaller class.

Take the binocs off all the kits bar the Officer, use the slot for something we actually use.

Use the Marksman slot for the MAG.

Rifle classes need more F1's, between four and six.

though IMO you'd be better off dual classing the mag and the f89.

if we take on anything else but insurgency or Taliban we will need AA

but i do agree with taking bino's of the grunts. i am pretty sure our inf dont have them

Truism
2009-09-10, 08:37
Our manpack AA is the RBS70 system which has to be deployed onto a launcher assembly before use, sort of like the current Firebase AA setup.

And the fact is that we roll with nearly twice as many machine guns as comparable forces.

162eRI
2009-09-10, 08:38
Just about the binos... I asked a long time ago on this forum why they give binos to everybody when in reality only few get some. I asked this for our faction as well if we have to give to all the soldiers binos.
Well, the answer was clear: it's important for the gameplay and yes we have to give the binos to all the soldiers.
With the time i feel that indeed, it's important for the gameplay.
I don't think you have a choice on this matter!!!

SkaterCrush
2009-09-11, 11:26
Are you even listening to yourself Truism? You're basically saying that Australia is like the best armed forces in the world, and while I love Australia, quite frankly thats not true. I agree this is Project Reality, but first and foremost it is a game, and the one thing a lot of people look for in online shooters is balance, and if the ADF is kicking everyone elses ass it won't be fun and it will be very unbalanced.

Truism
2009-09-11, 12:54
Are you even listening to yourself Truism? You're basically saying that Australia is like the best armed forces in the world, and while I love Australia, quite frankly thats not true. I agree this is Project Reality, but first and foremost it is a game, and the one thing a lot of people look for in online shooters is balance, and if the ADF is kicking everyone elses ass it won't be fun and it will be very unbalanced.

Do reread what was said.

Australia has the best light infantry in the world, but struggles with sustained tasks, armour and support operations.

Australian _Infantry_ have consistantly shown themselves to be nutcases, but no other arm has done so.

Tirak
2009-09-11, 13:23
No vs threads, stay on topic.

anglomanii
2009-09-11, 23:27
i was under the impression that tickets and maps where supposed to be the balancing agents

ChiefRyza
2009-09-11, 23:54
Well, if I was playing a map and one side just totally out-equipped the other, beating the crap through them in every engagement, I wouldn't be sticking around for very long. As much as you need to stick to reality there is no point in making a game that is only fun for one side.

anglomanii
2009-09-12, 05:44
then why play insugents,
i love playing insurgents, i get this great feeling of elation every time i smoke a bluefor.

i understand where you are comeing from though and yes to be totally out classed would suck. but i am not sure the ADF would be that totally overwhealming. and it will take some convincing for me to believe the ADF is so totally unbeatable. besides how many times in history did a guerilla force completely outclassed by the enemy triumph?, i take heart from the rising masses of the peasants to overwaelm his oppressors for is that not in its self a weapon?

Chuc
2009-09-12, 07:45
Let's just get all the hard asset work done before getting our knickers tied up in a bunch about whether we're under-equipping the faction.

VisOne
2009-09-12, 16:03
Chuc;1135763']Let's just get all the hard asset work done before getting our knickers tied up in a bunch about whether we're under-equipping the faction.

There you have it Sir Chuc has spoken all arguments are now null and void. :-P

anglomanii
2009-09-16, 23:37
well that would mean i have absolutly no creative input into this mod, i mean what am i able to do other than whinge.... actually i see your point, shutting up now.

Anhkhoa
2009-09-18, 19:10
Tonnie;1131382']OK, so i can see where ur coming from and i agree... but theres always the balence issue, i mean if i could have it my way a section would look like this

1 Seco
2 Riflemen
1 F89 minimi
1 Mag58
1 Medic

And on top of that every second guy would have a m72A6, most would have GLAs attached then also have f1 nades... As much as this would be alot more realistic we have to take into account that the OPFOR would get the ass's handed to them and there for we must watch the balence.

tonnie


You could work this out by giving them the following kit layout.

Officer - F88 (w.e equipment goes here)
Limited Rifleman Irons (F88 1.5 zoom scope, LAW, w.e equipment goes here)
Infinite Rifleman Scope (1 or 2 extra nades)
SAW (only 1.5 zoom to help with un-Over powering the equipment)
Medic (equipment)
Requestable GPMG (same system used before Squad machine guns)
HAT - (2-4 M3 Optics AT rounds)
LAT - (1-2 M3 Irons AP rounds)

Sgt.Trip
2009-09-23, 08:26
we just don't have the big guided missiles that other forces do.


ADF does have Javelins just like other forces, as well as having the 66's (m72) and the 84's (Carl Gustav).


and this i have to agree with
replace requestable marksmen with Mag-58
but also have 3 requestable/limited AT kits....
-Riflemen SRAAW (66mm),
-Riflemen LAT (84mm),
-HAT (Javelin)

Officer - F88 (w.e equipment goes here)
Limited Rifleman Irons (F88 1.5 zoom scope, LAW, w.e equipment goes here) one single 66mm
Infinite Rifleman Scope (1 or 2 extra nades)
SAW (only 1.5 zoom to help with un-Over powering the equipment)
Medic (equipment)
Requestable GPMG (same system used before Squad machine guns)
HAT - (1 round)have this as javelin
LAT - (1-2 rounds) have this as an 84mm

Limit is so you cant have a Javelin and an 84 together.
either the combo of:-
- 2x LAW's, or
- 1x LAW + 1x LAT, or
- 1xLAW + 1x HAT

Truism
2009-09-24, 09:58
Eh, we have the Javelin, but AFAIK so do the US Marines and Army, but they don't have it in game either.

If a mechanised enemy ran into a halfway informed ADF infantry platoon it would most likely run into between 25 and 40 66's and two 84's or a Javelin. For fairly obvious reasons every man can't carry one or two LATs each in PR.

Spawn screen:
Limited Officer Irons - F88 w/ 1.5 scope (officer equipment)
Infinite Rifleman Scope (1 or 2 extra nades)
Infinite Rifleman Irons (1 or 2 extra nades)
Limited Rifleman Irons (LAW x1)
Limited Minimi (1.5 zoom, it's not for camping anyway)

Request Menu:
HAT - 84mm with 1x HEAT, 2x HEDP, 2x Smoke.
AA - We don't have this kit, find something for it.
Sniper - Cool sausages.
Engineer - As with sniper.
Medic - As with engineer and sniper.
Marksman - Mag58 with 4x scope.
LAT - 1.5x scope, not linked to Spawn menu kit, 2x 66,.
Grenadier - 1.5x scope, no smoke, 12/16 HEDP.
AR - Minimi on same counter as spawn menu.

Notes; only the officer kit and HAT have smoke, the ADF must use more suppression and and aggressive maneurve to achieve their objectives. The faction is also not ideally suited to stand-off fighting due to lack of smoke and less access to high power optics, it must hterefore maintain the initiative by exploiting their more versatile AT options and more plentiful suppression weapons or risk being attrited from range.

Sgt.Trip
2009-09-24, 10:25
i dont see why the javelin is not in PR...... the FGM-172 SRAW has maybe not as advanced tracking guidance systems as the javelin.... but the FGM-172 SRAW still is a fire-and-forget weapon. it has pre launch system which calculates the predicted targets movement and also an internal guidance system thats while in flight adjusts for crosswinds and the like. so not as advanced as the javelins but still a guidance system, which is not present in its PR format. so why not the javelin without the guidance system.

also the FGM-172 SRAW has a top attack variant just like the javelin.

and i know the FGM-172 SRAW has a shorter range but in PR this will not matter anyway because of view distances and map size restrictions.

im not arguing the point having the javelin in the game so dont jump me for resuggesting something that has already been suggested. Cause im not suggesting it be put in PR at all.



anyways back on topic....

i have to agree with you there though... your suggested spawn and kit request menu is quite good. i also believe limiting smoke is a good thing... the doctrine taught within the ADF is very aggressive (but my knowledge only goes that far, cause i can not compare it to another nations doctrine cause i obviously have not undertaken any other nations training.)

im still not sold on the mag58, not totally, but i guess it would become very useful, the limitations on this kit would need to be tweaked i think, and only testing would that work. Mag58's are being used a lot more in your standard infantry platoons, and even going right down to the section level.

but looking at your kit sugestions ADF, in my opinion would still over power insurgents and probably even a conventional army in PR... ie the Chinese or MEC.

anglomanii
2009-09-25, 12:04
to the best of my knowledge ADF currently deployed at this time now have two guns, 1x F89 and 1x MAG 58 available to all sections. and is a SOP across the ADF.

Jimbom
2009-09-25, 22:35
^ To be honest I think an individual sections layout tends to vary greatly depending on what the task of the section is and what is available at the time. If the unit is running with all that 2012 doctrine malarkey then they'll have 2 Minimi's per section and then have a 4th section with 2 MAG's.

As for limiting smoke, we do have the aggression bit about always going forwards, but theres also that wonderful 1/3 ratio which means we need to be able to get ourselves out of trouble just as fast as we can get into it!

RUSSIAN147
2009-10-22, 09:28
i think you have got that completely correct. im a corporal in the reserves, and i have seen the devastation a single rocket can do to 3 gum trees. so i maintain what you've said, to keep the balance grenades should be a staple. plus you can't throw a rocket around a corner can you?

RUSSIAN147
2009-10-22, 09:31
going completely off topic, imagine the controversy if we had the L42A1 (scoped .303 with a bipod) make a resurgence in Aus. Forces? even just as a DMR.

gazzthompson
2009-10-22, 21:12
going completely off topic, imagine the controversy if we had the L42A1 (scoped .303 with a bipod) make a resurgence in Aus. Forces? even just as a DMR.

do ANY aus forces use this weapon ? if yes, state sources... if no, then no.

triggerhappY|PR
2009-10-24, 01:44
Just a chime,

The best way i can see of incorporating MAG58s into ADF mod is to have the minimi on the main menu, and the MAG58 on the commo rose request AR kit, and then have it so they cant have a DMR and a MAG58 at the same time.

Truism
2009-10-24, 06:02
Just don't use the DMR. The SR-25 isn't used outside SF at all as far as I can tell.

anglomanii
2009-10-24, 22:23
the sr-25 is part of the current light and medium armaments integration program, which is seeing a radical series of evolutions, in armaments upgrades and application of adaptive war-fighting techniques.
this evolution is seeing the armed forces refocusing how it conducts it's internal growth, there is now a real effort to ensure ADF members are initially seeded to appropriate disciplines and then are given the impetus to grow into more advanced rolls.
this is also seen ion the deployment of arms and their evolving deployment to troops. what our leading edge forces have today, is now being readily made available down the line to regular forces.

so at this time regular Btns are adopting the SR-25, Blaser tac2, and other such optimized armaments.

anglo out