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Demonic
2009-05-04, 16:52
That is a great idea (regarding the image provided). Having a limitation of one medic is both realistic and will make the medic have to play better and make him a better asset. Can't tell you how much I see medics just rush into places without his or her squad or goes first and gets killed and leaves others unrevived or unhealed. Pisses me off.

Also having the option of a AR per squad will be very popular. This going to be added in 9.0?

DesmoLocke
2009-05-04, 17:00
This going to be added in 9.0?

Reading is a gift you know... First sentence of the first post!

dbzao;1006390']A little update from the upcoming 0.86 patch.

TonkaTruck
2009-05-04, 18:55
I disagree with the 1 medic kit per squad. I'd much rather see two. I know from personal experience that two medics cannot take care of 12 people when in a serious firefight. You guys keep saying things about the medic spam and how 3 medics+ was a problem. It won't obviously be a problem if their is a limit of TWO medics per squad. Not to mention having two will be nice as one of your medics can really suck and you don't want to have to kick him and have someone suicide because you don't have a medic then.

TonkaTruck
2009-05-04, 18:58
I also saw plenty of posts about how medics need to stay back and hide behind cover during a firefight. That is not the case. A good medic knows when to shoot and when not to. If I'm a squad leader and I'm engaging an enemy, even more so when it's suppressive fire for a squad, I want EVERY gun in my squad firing. I don't want one of my members hiding because a stray bullet might hit him.

Human_001
2009-05-04, 20:22
I know from personal experience that two medics cannot take care of 12 people when in a serious firefight.

1 soldier, 1 soldier, 1 redcross... 1 soldier, 1 soldier, another redcross...
That many medic is no where near reality of battlefield.
That means on frontline in modern army, 1/3 of army is Medic.

Ofcourse you can't take care of 12 peoples with 2 medics. You are suggesting make it medic take care of 12 peoples with 4 medics. (2 medics in 6 men squad)

If ALL of your squad mate needs medic attention at same time that means your squad is under machine gun fire or Sniper fire. NO medic will save squad in this situation in real life and this... is Project Reality.

I personally would like medic kit to disappear immediately after medic player is dropped just like civilian kit once was. So if you kill a medic, there is no more medic. If this doesn't happen, there will be medic spam again. Believe me. I never can take out 1 soldier+1 medic team because they just switch kit and revive each other.
If soldier is shot, medic can revive him, and if medic is shot, soldier can pick up medic kit and revive him to become rifleman.

But this will be disadvantage for Insurgents and be advantage of BLUFOR because Insurgent that picks up medic is not instantly a BLUFOR medic.

Rudd
2009-05-04, 21:50
That means on frontline in modern army, 1/3 of army is Medic.

but you forget that there is no law against only medic's providing live saving first aid.

The medic isn't some dude who dropped out of medical school to serve his country, she/he's a soldier who has done extra training in caring for wounded in battle and is carrying the medkit with all the tools to do it. If you gave that same medkit to another soldier, sure there are a few things in there he won't know to use properly, but its not like he'll just go "I'm not a medic", he'll get on his hands and knees and help his buddy to the best of his ability. So let the medic kit drop and let another dude pick it up.

Rollonio
2009-05-04, 21:57
I like these changes alot. I've played a dedicated medic in the FFTF tournament in the primary assault squad, and one medic was definitely enough 90% of the time. But for this to work, i had to change my approach from trying to kill the enemy to only thinking of myself as support for the squad, often sitting back, covering the flanks and observing with binocs during long distance engagements. Virtually every round i was in the top 5 scorers that way, so you don't have to give up points by playing a dedicated medic.

Obviously like the iron sights option for the SL and the greater availability of AR will improve squad tactics considerably by better using suppression and cover.

Nice work DEVs

Warpig-
2009-05-05, 01:13
That's one of the least backed up statements I've ever seen, and I don't see any evidence at all to prove it. It's just a worthless statement with no value.

Yes because actually I should have submitted it in essay form, sorry. I forgot this wasn't a forum.

It's a grenade launcher, it's the same in every game. People join your squad, take the kit and leave. I've seen it happen on servers many times before. I was simply saying that the AR kit is less prone (From what I've seen. Are you happy now?) to be abused and taken by people who only want the kit, not to actually take part in your squad.

McBumLuv
2009-05-05, 01:30
Fine, but I completely disagree with that, as I've never seen it as a preference of some of the less team-minded players I've had in my squads.

Skodz
2009-05-05, 01:59
People will stop whining once the patch is out, 1 medic/squad work just fine. Trust me. I've been doing some very intensive skirmish battle with only 1 medic for the squad and it was just fine.

If you need or use 2 medic/squad, you are doing something wrong.

Th3Exiled
2009-05-05, 06:03
Its excellent for room clearance and fire support.

I'm sorry, WHAT?! Are you talking about the same grenadier kit I'm thinking about? How is it excellent for room clearance? The kit has a scope which isn't the best thing to have while performing room clearing. Riflemen also have handgrenades which you can toss into a room (which you cannot do with the grenadier grenades since it requires just over 30m to arm).
For room clearance, rifleman ironsights is the way to go. It has a quicker sight in time, armed with grenades and isn't limited like the grenadier.

Anyway, update sounds good. Look forward to see how it plays out.

Exiled

gazzthompson
2009-05-05, 10:18
well, he probably means shooting into a window/room that your squad is about to clear from a distance....

ExoDuUs
2009-05-05, 10:24
I think this new 1 medic per squad will change the gameplay either for better or worse. It depends how joe public adapts. It will either turn more nilla' or more cautious. I hope it will make squads more cautious in approach; i.e running down the middle of a street into enemy cap zone is never the way forward; but I see it alot.
I have fraps a few rounds as medic where I have come top no firebase points and about 2 kills just medding and spraying towards an enemy to keep them supressed rather then attacking.
The way a medic in a squad is played needs to change. The people playing the kit ive seen to often charging in rather then using the kit as it supposed to be used. As a core of the squad healing and ressing squad mates as they advance and letting the riflemen do the fighting. So hopefully this is going to be one of the best changes to the gameplay so far in effect to make it realistic.
Also SL ironsights is a good addition; no more ghost train and kozelsk with optics thank god!!

Ex

Ecko
2009-05-05, 12:35
well, he probably means shooting into a window/room that your squad is about to clear from a distance....

bingo!

Instant detonation, plus means ur assault squad isn't faffing about with weapon changes.

Albatross
2009-05-06, 07:23
Patch me up and call me scruffy

Cheers Dev team looking forward to the new changes

MadTommy
2009-05-06, 07:44
A sixth of the squad being medic is ok, a third, way too many and half ridiculous.

Restricting squads to one medic is good news.

I've never bought it to the '2 fire teams thing', it just rarely works. Any losses to either fire team and they become useless. 6 men together is much better and more effective.

If you want another fireteam, work with another squad. :) (and you'll get your 2nd medic.)

asianator365
2009-05-07, 23:28
2 might be better, but in a normal rifle company you wouldn't have every third person be a medic would ya ;) i do agree that it is generally better, but i also think that we should give this up just to get a bit more realism

Then give the pilots some damn weapons. THAT'S REALISTIC TOO!

DrSpock
2009-05-08, 01:29
Can I just say a big thanks to the Dev's for these two changes? THANK YOU. As someone who likes to play an Officer and SL, I really appreciate you giving SL's an iron sight option. I thoroughly enjoy iron sights more than optics.

Secondly, for the right click to call medic option, can the system be improved to constantly show your "out of health and red cross icon" above your character's body for as long as you are revive-able and calling for help? In matches where I play medic it is tough sometimes to know if someone is still revive-able because all indications are they are just a corpse, but are actually still waiting for a revive.

Thanks!

GR34
2009-05-08, 04:01
DO I SEE A SCOPE ON THE MINIMI

DesmoLocke
2009-05-08, 04:07
Secondly, for the right click to call medic option, can the system be improved to constantly show your "out of health and red cross icon" above your character's body for as long as you are revive-able and calling for help? In matches where I play medic it is tough sometimes to know if someone is still revive-able because all indications are they are just a corpse, but are actually still waiting for a revive.

+1 :-D We would definitely enjoy that on the pub servers.

tacrli
2009-05-08, 04:39
Then give the pilots some damn weapons. THAT'S REALISTIC TOO!

I'd have to agree with him. At the very least they should get a knife and a pistol.

MCI
2009-05-08, 10:35
I would rather have seen something like this:

On the left top corner an arrow to swith weapon outfits (like unlocks in vanilla). So if you are medic but you want an ACOG you click on the arrow and get an m4 or m16 ACOG. But if you want a laser scope you click the arrow again and get an laserscope on your rifle. Click again and Iron Sights shows up again.

1. You can add more standard kits to the spawn menu.
2. It's fun to customize your weapon to the needs of the battlefield (long range, urban, close combat etc.)

=WFL= Sgt Bilko
2009-05-08, 12:09
The "one medic per sqd" played out quit well when we were on test server yesterday.

However it seems like it's set up like the special weapon classes = if the kit is picked up by another sqd or enemy, the sqd can not get a new medic kit until the old one is returned to pool.

It'd be better having it like the Officer Kit - limited to one per sqd but always available.

Zoddom
2009-05-08, 13:49
It'd be better having it like the Officer Kit - limited to one per sqd but always available.

wut? only the sql can spawn with an officer kit so ... wtf?

MrSh@vid
2009-05-08, 13:57
wut? only the sql can spawn with an officer kit so ... wtf?

I think what he meant was that when a squad leader dies, and happens to get revived with a diffrent kit, he can still request his SL kit, even if an enemy stole his old one.
However with the medic in the current 0.86 Beta, If an enemy takes your medic kit, you are unable to request one until the holder dies, and the kit disappears of the map altogether, which could explain why i couldn't try out the new lmg, even though no one in my squad had it.

Mad-Mike
2009-05-08, 16:33
Medic Iron Sight is the only i kit i go most of the time!
Tbh im better with a iron sight than a scope now:-D

Cpl.Small
2009-05-08, 16:38
the AR with the scope is AWESOME!!!! I love it :D

Omega_17_The_True
2009-05-08, 16:49
I just dont get it ... Iron sights are almost useless 80% of the times, with a scope you get a HUGE advantage over medium and long range shootings but i do agree that iron sight are really great for close combats but its happens quite rarely, also its obviously depending of the maps.

The officer kit with only the scope was great because you really get a advantage over other kits AND you get a pistol that is very useful for close combat and as a backup, also the scope rifleman made the un-scope one useless if you ask me ... the iron sight could be usefull if he had benefits to balance the kits, like the only one who can carry frag grenades, just a suggestion.

By the way the automaic rifleman on the spawn menu is a great thing and will encourage players to play this useful kit, oh and good job on the upcoming patch ;)

Fivenine
2009-05-08, 17:15
i like it!

Black Ghost89
2009-05-08, 17:21
I would rather have seen something like this:

On the left top corner an arrow to swith weapon outfits (like unlocks in vanilla). So if you are medic but you want an ACOG you click on the arrow and get an m4 or m16 ACOG. But if you want a laser scope you click the arrow again and get an laserscope on your rifle. Click again and Iron Sights shows up again.

1. You can add more standard kits to the spawn menu.
2. It's fun to customize your weapon to the needs of the battlefield (long range, urban, close combat etc.)

really good point, that would be totally awesome!

Black Ghost89
2009-05-08, 17:32
dbzao;1006390']

The Medic and the Automatic Rifleman kits are limited to 1 per squad with at least 3 members and unlimited numbers per team.

It's ok that the medic kit is limited to one per squad but only available with at least 3 members? why? Ok to prevent "one-man-medic-squads" but you could at least put it down on 2, because on little "behind enemy lines" missions a medic is really useful (like with a combat engi or something).

Spaz
2009-05-08, 18:07
[QUOTE=Omega_17_The_True;1016790]Iron sights are almost useless 80% of the times

I don't agree, the only time I don't use iron sights is when I have no other choice, like when my SL orders me to grab a LAT or grenadier etc.

I have no problem hitting people at 200-300m with iron sights. Sure the scopes are better at longer distance but at that range I can still suppress the enemy with out any major problems. And since I'm a teamplayer there is more often then not a squadmate next to me with a scope. ;)

Mad-Mike
2009-05-08, 19:35
[QUOTE=Omega_17_The_True;1016790]I just dont get it ... Iron sights are almost useless 80% of the times, with a scope you get a HUGE advantage over medium and long range shootings but i do agree that iron sight are really great for close combats but its happens quite rarely, also its obviously depending of the maps.QUOTE]

I disagree with you there Omega.
Iam always using the iron sight becuase im mainly medic unless Sqd leader tells me to grab another kit,
Once u have used the iron sight a couple of times u get used to it and become more accurate with it, (not beeing big headed) im ace with this gun i can get a head shot no problem while enemy are on the run!
its a good sight to get use to because Close combat is hard with scope and iron sight is much easier! and someone always pops up infront of u no matter what map.

MCI
2009-05-09, 14:36
really good point, that would be totally awesome!

I wanna bet it's hard coded or something like that... :roll:

MCI
2009-05-09, 15:04
I would rather have seen something like this:

On the left top corner an arrow to swith weapon outfits (like unlocks in vanilla). So if you are medic but you want an ACOG you click on the arrow and get an m4 or m16 ACOG. But if you want a laser scope you click the arrow again and get an laserscope on your rifle. Click again and Iron Sights shows up again.

1. You can add more standard kits to the spawn menu.
2. It's fun to customize your weapon to the needs of the battlefield (long range, urban, close combat etc.)

I suggested it before BTW Black Ghost

https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f18-pr-suggestions/57192-suggestion-scoped-non-scoped.html

sakils2
2009-05-09, 15:21
I wanna bet it's hard coded or something like that... :roll:

DEV's already said that, they didn't have enough time to look into the BF2 unlock system.

Threedroogs
2009-05-09, 16:08
I'd have to agree with him. At the very least they should get a knife and a pistol.

the pilot's weapons were removed so that pilots couldnt parachute behind enemy lines and kill FOBs (and thank god for that change!). it's a balance thing and i am willing to bet that the pilots never get their weapons back.

Rudd
2009-05-09, 16:38
the pilot's weapons were removed so that pilots couldnt parachute behind enemy lines and kill FOBs (and thank god for that change!). it's a balance thing and i am willing to bet that the pilots never get their weapons back.

I've said it b4 and I'll say it again, I truely hope they eventually make 2 pilot kits, heli and jet, jet has parachute and no weapon, heli has weapon but no parachute, everyone is appeased

Gore
2009-05-09, 22:55
Medicman has a good point.

MCI
2009-05-10, 12:39
DEV's already said that, they didn't have enough time to look into the BF2 unlock system.

They use it without problems in Eve of Destruction (which's also a BSS mod)

Rudd
2009-05-10, 12:42
They use it without problems in Eve of Destruction (which's also a BSS mod)

Yeah, the R-DEVs are looking in to making PR one afaik, but they have a huge list of things to do to get the game up to .9, and at the end of the day the weapon selector would be convenient, but maybe not as necessary as some other stuff.

dtacs
2009-05-10, 13:34
http://images.totalgamingnetwork.com/images/customkit-2.jpg

ScoutStrike managed to do this with his W00kiE sniper mod, which was pretty good.

would it be possible in PR, like a flowchart system?

Snazz
2009-05-10, 15:04
^That's pretty impressive, does it just have 1 custom kit though?

Like does it still allow you to pick from multiple base kits first (Officer, Medic etc.) and then customize the rest?

Pluizert
2009-05-10, 15:47
Great changes guys, especially the officer kit with choice to choose between scope and irons. Keep it up!

This is a good change! IMostly used my pistol in the city fights cause the zoom time was too slow to do any good...

MCI
2009-05-10, 16:00
http://images.totalgamingnetwork.com/images/customkit-2.jpg

ScoutStrike managed to do this with his W00kiE sniper mod, which was pretty good.

would it be possible in PR, like a flowchart system?

Then again that is too hardcore to me I would rather see it for PR on a smaller scale

McBumLuv
2009-05-10, 16:02
I've said it b4 and I'll say it again, I truely hope they eventually make 2 pilot kits, heli and jet, jet has parachute and no weapon, heli has weapon but no parachute, everyone is appeased

I still hope that, I made the suggestion for it, but I don't think it will be in 0.86. I"m still hoping for it to get into 0.9, though.

NemeanHavoc
2009-05-10, 16:32
http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/1028/086kits.jpg
Dont know if annyone ells noticed but Is that Minimi Scoped?...

McBumLuv
2009-05-10, 16:42
That's been remarked throughout the thread, really. It's an elcan.

NemeanHavoc
2009-05-10, 20:25
Ohw...sorry for my laziness. I was in a hurry didnt read out the full treath.
Thats pretty nice!

Rudd
2009-05-10, 20:27
http://images.totalgamingnetwork.com/images/customkit-2.jpg

ScoutStrike managed to do this with his W00kiE sniper mod, which was pretty good.

would it be possible in PR, like a flowchart system?

I don't think thats the way we should go.

afaik grunts don't get to pick every little small thing they carry, the EoD system would much better represent what PR is trying to accomplish I think :)

503
2009-05-10, 22:50
http://images.totalgamingnetwork.com/images/customkit-2.jpg

ScoutStrike managed to do this with his W00kiE sniper mod, which was pretty good.

would it be possible in PR, like a flowchart system?

Wow that's really cool. Too much variety though.

dtacs
2009-05-11, 05:57
Yeah i think it can only be done with one kit, unless the kit and squad tabs could be lengthened to make multiple tabs, which afaik is hardcoded so it wouldn't be possible.

@that 'grunts don't get to choose what they want' yes, however there is alot of choice there because there could just be one 'centralized kit, with all the primary guns, secondaries (SRAW, pistol, AT4, etc

then there could be the grenade choices, but only the signal smokes could be chosen if you're a squad leader, same for the pistol, only if you choose the sniper rifle, which could only be clicked if it hasn't been taken by 2 people on your team.

see where im going with this? a flowchart system.

sakils2
2009-05-11, 09:55
PMC could have that option. (Choose what pistol, SMG/Rifle).

clueless_noob
2009-05-11, 13:01
http://images.totalgamingnetwork.com/images/customkit-2.jpg

ScoutStrike managed to do this with his W00kiE sniper mod, which was pretty good.

would it be possible in PR, like a flowchart system?

This would require 9*10*3*2*6 = 3240 different kits to be developed. It could be done using scripts, but still it's both error prone and overkill.

Masterbake
2009-05-11, 13:44
To clear up the spawn menu a little bit Officer, Rifleman and AR could have same kind of option as it is with Vanilla global unlocks, that small switch in upper right corner.

That is exactly what I was just about to post.

Would it be possible to do this but keep different icons for irons and optics?
That would be ideal.

MCI
2009-05-11, 13:56
That wookie sniper mod thing is just too much. The Eve of Destruction system with only changes to the zoom attachment is enough to me (and it won't take people hours to pick their outfit...).

Redamare
2009-05-11, 22:46
Why have a Ironsight officer ???? No one is going to use that ( just like ironsight Rifleman )

PRcrimenal
2009-05-12, 00:46
Why have a Ironsight officer ???? No one is going to use that ( just like ironsight Rifleman )

naah, i don't no why but i use it allot in city maps, just give me a better feeling running with a ironsight then with a scope in those little small spaced ways...

Snazz
2009-05-12, 02:08
Having iron sights in close quarters has saved me a lot of times, I definitely support having the option.

alexaus
2009-05-12, 12:08
nice idea :D

Nagard
2009-05-12, 12:22
Why have a Ironsight officer ???? No one is going to use that ( just like ironsight Rifleman )

I would use it. And I definitively use the Ironsight Rifleman. Ironsight/M68 is way more powerful then the ACOG or the other scopes. The scopes simply need a to long time to have an acceptable deviation to fire.

sakils2
2009-05-12, 12:25
Why have a Ironsight officer ???? No one is going to use that ( just like ironsight Rifleman )

Well, I was a stress tester (we tested 0.866). We played Korengal and EVERY SL took the ironsight officer.

AnRK
2009-05-12, 12:44
That might have been to do with the fact it was a new feature as well though, not saying that it won't be useful obviously.

Scandicci
2009-05-12, 13:20
great news!

the officer kit with iron sights is wonderful news. As SL I have purposefully spawned in with the Rifleman Iron Sights or even Medic because it is so much better in CQB situations. For clearing out buildings/bunkers or defending the same, these kits will be perfect.

Cpl.Small
2009-05-12, 16:40
Also on maps like Ghost Train with long jungle grass, try using optics lying down and see how far you can see, go on, try it :)

Nagard
2009-05-12, 20:23
Cpl.Small;1020688']Also on maps like Ghost Train with long jungle grass, try using optics lying down and see how far you can see, go on, try it :)

That's cruel! :D

Jay
2009-05-12, 20:59
Why have a Ironsight officer ???? No one is going to use that ( just like ironsight Rifleman )

The only reason people don't use ironsight rifleman, is because it's way more advantageous (at the moment) to just go medic instead. But with the new medic changes, I think you'll see a lot more ironsight riflemen, and a lot of people going ironsight officer.

gazzthompson
2009-05-12, 21:24
Why have a Ironsight officer ???? No one is going to use that ( just like ironsight Rifleman )

you kidding ? iron sights ROCK!

sakils2
2009-05-12, 21:33
you kidding ? iron sights ROCK!

Indeed. :D

GR34
2009-05-13, 00:50
I always use the iron sight rifle man scopes are for People who are looking for the next best thing when there 1337snipoRz Kit is gone. + by the time u get your gun scoped in I will have shot you with my iron sights

Warpig-
2009-05-13, 05:09
Cpl.Small;1020688']Also on maps like Ghost Train with long jungle grass, try using optics lying down and see how far you can see, go on, try it :)

Amen. The number of times I've gotten kills in that bloody grass using iron's, they're worth their weight in gold

Loller
2009-05-13, 12:54
hey loving the new spawn menu selections however one issue:
If theres one medic per squad, then if someone selects medic and leaves the squad what happens, squads are gona be left with no medics arent they? and someones ran off with that squads medic kit, unless theres a plan to credit the squad a medic kit back once their medic leaves?

Masterbake
2009-05-13, 16:19
hey loving the new spawn menu selections however one issue:
If theres one medic per squad, then if someone selects medic and leaves the squad what happens, squads are gona be left with no medics arent they? and someones ran off with that squads medic kit, unless theres a plan to credit the squad a medic kit back once their medic leaves?

We shall have to rely on the maturity of the PR community.

One issue I can see is that squads in matches and the like may be reduced to 4, maybe even 3 people, so they're simply:

Officer
LMG
Medic
Rifleman (maybe)

I think the LMG should only be available to squads with at least 5 people in.
Otherwise there may just be mad spraying on every map with the LMGs just killing everyone.

SkaterCrush
2009-05-13, 22:06
Also I usually like the have 2 medics in case one goes down, it DOES make it more realistic. As for the LMG....I just jizzed my pants. Great job, but I too am worried about it not being used for suppresion etc. and more as a killing machine. Look at Operation Archer for example. An LMG gunner could rule the whole city from the castle if he has a spotter, and with the crazy deployed accuracy he'll be able to take guys out as far as he can see.

Pvt.King
2009-05-14, 02:11
Look at Operation Archer for example. An LMG gunner could rule the whole city from the castle if he has a spotter, and with the crazy deployed accuracy he'll be able to take guys out as far as he can see.

I think it's pretty realistic thought:|

Royal_marine_machine
2009-05-14, 08:37
tbh, tactically 2 Medics is a waste, one decent medic shouldn't go down, medics do not fight, they hide :D

So i think 1 medic per squad is gurd.

Also, LMGs should be limited because IRL they are expensive so most armies can't afford many :D

MCI
2009-05-14, 09:49
We shall have to rely on the maturity of the PR community.

Well that's just great, just great... Good luck with that.

Nagard
2009-05-14, 14:26
Also I usually like the have 2 medics in case one goes down, it DOES make it more realistic.

I think this has been mentioned several times before: How much medics are assigned to a squad in real life? (Before you answer: This is a rethorical question!) And if your medic gets hit IRL you ARE screwed. That's the way it goes.

A little tip: Tell your medic to stay OUT of danger and IN cover. Should help to keep him alive.

Threedroogs
2009-05-14, 19:51
hey loving the new spawn menu selections however one issue:
If theres one medic per squad, then if someone selects medic and leaves the squad what happens, squads are gona be left with no medics arent they? and someones ran off with that squads medic kit, unless theres a plan to credit the squad a medic kit back once their medic leaves?

if i see someone try to steal the medic kit in my squad he will get hit by about 200 bullets into his back. if i get random guys in my squad stealing (or taking the kit when i've had someone else playing a good medic the entire round who is waiting to respawn), i will deal with it one way or the other. most people act in a mature manner and do what the SL wants...the others will be shot.

Loller
2009-05-14, 21:43
We shall have to rely on the maturity of the PR community.


As optimistic as some of us are im just not confident in the PR community noobs to abuse this , the majority of players in PR are willing to work as a team however i just see them getting impatient and fighting the battle and then the squad bleeds to death while the medics imaptience has cost the squad their ability to operate. PR will have to rely much more on SL discretion and admins i guess

daranz
2009-05-15, 00:30
Sounds like I'm gonna have to get used to the idea of playing kits other than medic. D:

ChiefRyza
2009-05-15, 05:33
This system is highly open to abuse now that I think about it. People could just make 3 man squads and 1/3 of the team would be LMG's. That would be stupid....

It should be limited to a squad with at least 5 people, no exceptions.

Warpig-
2009-05-15, 08:25
You can already do that now though

Su34
2009-05-15, 11:41
No, because as far as I know, the Automatic Rifleman-Kit is limitied to a certain number for in one team.
In 0.86 you can have on Automatic Rifleman/squad, no matter how many Kits are already in use, as long as you have 3 guys in your squad.

So, I like the idea of limitting the kit to 5/6 man squads.

Masterbake
2009-05-15, 13:11
One issue I can see is that squads in matches and the like may be reduced to 4, maybe even 3 people, so they're simply:

Officer
LMG
Medic
Rifleman (maybe)

I think the LMG should only be available to squads with at least 5 people in.
Otherwise there may just be mad spraying on every map with the LMGs just killing everyone.

This system is highly open to abuse now that I think about it. People could just make 3 man squads and 1/3 of the team would be LMG's. That would be stupid....

It should be limited to a squad with at least 5 people, no exceptions.

Echo...

sickly
2009-05-26, 22:52
As optimistic as some of us are im just not confident in the PR community noobs to abuse this , the majority of players in PR are willing to work as a team however i just see them getting impatient and fighting the battle and then the squad bleeds to death while the medics imaptience has cost the squad their ability to operate. PR will have to rely much more on SL discretion and admins i guess

This is a good point; noob kit-whores will force SLs to be stricter (e.g. kicking squadmates that don't do their jobs).

Three problems: 1) squads with irresponsible SLs will suffer, 2) I can see overly-strict SLs kicking people for accidentally getting fragged (we all have our moments), and 3) the increased responsibility placed on the shoulders of player with the medic kit in particular may scare people away, so you may end up with no medics at all.

Generally speaking though, limiting these two kits this seems both realistic and balances gameplay.

In RL, medics are few in number in that they require higher-level medical training and as said before, LMGs are pricey--they are also slow to handle so not as versatile as assault rifles).

And tactical gameplay suffers when half the guys on a squad are medics and just revive each other, albeit not as quickly as vanilla---thank God (how many times did I just keep fragging the same guy with his little noob medic buddy sprinting out and instantly reviving him to full health!). Or in the case of LMGs, I remember armies of them in vanilla because people could be sure of a kill at closer ranges....after diving to prone of course. :roll:

Zynk
2009-05-26, 23:25
hmm...I'm positive someone' already said this somewhere, but what about having one rifleman/officer kit on the spawn menu and having the little arrows toggle between ironsights/optics? :neutral:

(my guess is, you would have done that already in an earlier release, but it causes glitches somewhere within spawning...)

Expendable Grunt
2009-05-27, 06:47
SL + Medic + LMG = squad lacking in sustainable firepower, eyes, staying power, and mobile fire power. LMG can't deploy in the open because he'll get shot, and if the medic runs to get him they'll both be shot, meaning the LMG is now dead. If the unit's on the move, they'll not be able to cover their advance well, or quickly. In CQC, they only have 2 effective members, as the moving spray is horrendous, and you are a frag magnet.

M.

McBumLuv
2009-05-27, 13:43
Exactly. People arguing that there'll be some sort of spam are simply being ridiculous, because it's all about context. If you're trying to be a support team, then yes, it's possible to have a 3 man squad with an LMG. But then it's always been possible for that, and you're still limited to one sort of thing, and if you're flanked, you're F*cked.

sickly
2009-05-27, 16:01
hmm...I'm positive someone' already said this somewhere, but what about having one rifleman/officer kit on the spawn menu and having the little arrows toggle between ironsights/optics? :neutral:

(my guess is, you would have done that already in an earlier release, but it causes glitches somewhere within spawning...)

Yeah that's something I really wanted to see in a mod (i.e. the ability to switch between variations of a single kit type using BF2's weapon unlock function) but I think I remember reading somewhere that this was very difficult or not possible to implement. It's too bad because that would have made for a simpler kit limiting system.


SL + Medic + LMG = squad lacking in sustainable firepower, eyes, staying power, and mobile fire power. LMG can't deploy in the open because he'll get shot, and if the medic runs to get him they'll both be shot, meaning the LMG is now dead. If the unit's on the move, they'll not be able to cover their advance well, or quickly. In CQC, they only have 2 effective members, as the moving spray is horrendous, and you are a frag magnet.

M.

Aside from the unrealistically high deviation for movement (I'm guessing this is for game balance purposes--too keep LMG from being over-powered), this is pretty much how it works in RL so why would PR any be different?

Btw, LMG is usually not in the open but rather in a hidden position overlooking a choke point or commonly used route (i.e. so he can wait for enemies to enter the area and then mow them down before they can react). This is the point to the 'deployed' option for LMGs--highly stable (i.e. low deviation/recoil) so finding a good spot where you can't be attacked from the side is essential. (Only a fool would be out in the open for a sustained period of time....with any kit type.)

Alpha6One
2009-05-27, 19:13
Nice Change. Lets see how this unfolds in the community.

Squeezee
2009-05-28, 19:56
Sounds awesome, I especially like the SAW optics.

jbgeezer
2009-05-28, 20:48
Nice-o-nice

GrimSoldier
2009-05-30, 15:40
I like the limited auto riflemen but i don't really know about the 1 medic. Although yes its realist i still like having 2 medics in squads on some maps. But overall its still nice to see.

joethepro36
2009-05-30, 17:02
It's nice to finally see the auto riflemen being a spawn kit again. With the kit limitation and the .85's abundance of scopes it should work out pretty well and not go back to the support spam glory days ;)
Now more than ever people will actually pick up the damn kit! It's so horribly underused because people don't seem to use it properly, making it seem weak and cumbersome when ironically if used properly it is one of the most powerful infantry kits.

The medic change is very interesting, something that will stop a 1/3 of a squad unrealistically being medics, which although in gameplay terms works out rather well, doesn't translate well to realism/proper tactics. Combined with the 60 second death timer after reviving, it should work extremely well, making medics more careful and professional than ever.

My only criticism of the changes is that the marksman and grenadier kits are both not spawn limited kits. These are standard fare kits in an infantry squad and hardly create any problems with balance or gameyness. A grenadier kit can be pretty good, but an autorifleman kit is much better imo. I would personally leave the spawn limited kits there however, as the ability to spawn rifle at on a rally is pretty bad. (cue good/bad memories of muttrah 1).

barbdwyer22
2009-05-31, 04:47
I only read up to page 26 but I really do not want to read all the way up for page 35 or whatever, so, I will add my 2 cents.

As many of people have said here, there are things that are definitely given up for gameplay/BF2 engine limitations and whatnot.

People talk about realism and have their beefs with what the developers are trying to do, but it is all a step in the right direction.

I will give you something to think about when you look at these changes. A real infantry squad consists of 13 members. 3 fires teams of 4 with 1 squad leader, each fireteam has a M249SAW and a M203 grenade launcher. The SQDL will sometimes carry a M203 on his M16/M4. Typically, you are suppose to go out with 1 Corpsman per squad but often times you are only afforded two Corpsman for a platoon (3 squads per platoon.) Also, you usually have multiple AT4s (called a LAT in PR) that the rifleman carry

Also, like someone else mentioned, medic kits should be able to be picked up because ALL MARINES are taught basic field medicine in boot camp. We also have something called Combat Life Savers which are Marines taught by Corpsman to be assistant Corpsman and carry a thigh rig with extra medical supplies. I am a CLS Marine and I know thing like administering IVs, treating hemorraging, etc.

barbdwyer22
2009-05-31, 04:56
I mean, you can go on and on about stuff like this. With the way warfare is these days, there are always things that are changing to the basic load outs of infantry squads and whatnot.

I mean, from what I said in the above post, would that not mean grenadier and LATs should be spawnable kits too?

Where is the DM kit? They have a marksman kit but that is actually a rifle that snipers use. A standard Marine infantry squad have a guy called a DM (designated marksman) which all that consists of is a M16 with a harris bipod and a scope/universal night sight (UNS).

Antonious_Bloc
2009-05-31, 06:11
The marksmen kit uses a modified M14. According to wikipedia and the various media that I have seen, that's the USMC's official designated marksman rifle.They use both the M14 and the modified M16s though, as confirmed by the USMC's recruiting website (http://www.marines.com/main/index/winning_battles/history/innovations/designated_marksman#).

Antonious_Bloc
2009-05-31, 06:17
I can't figure out how to edit that post, but apparently the M16 version is also officially called the "advanced marksmen rifle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Marine_Corps_Squad_Advanced_Marksman_Rifle)" and has the same role.

barbdwyer22
2009-05-31, 06:26
I know, I am in the Marine Infantry, I am just saying we never had a modified M14 in our squads, we had a guy who was elected "DM" and was given some bipods and a scope with UNS. I did see snipers with the M14s though.

Rudd
2009-05-31, 07:30
I know, I am in the Marine Infantry, I am just saying we never had a modified M14 in our squads, we had a guy who was elected "DM" and was given some bipods and a scope with UNS. I did see snipers with the M14s though.

hi mate, always great to see servicemen around here. I suspect the real reason for the lack of modified m16 is because it would mean the current m16 model would have to be modified and reimported in to the game afaik. (I'm not entirely sure on model modifications, but I think so)

And therefore is lower on the agenda than some other stuff, since the m14 is as you say...used...so Lets hope for .9 eh?!

barbdwyer22
2009-05-31, 08:19
Far enough, but what about grenadier and LATs in the spawn menu?

Those are standard in every squad too.

Rudd
2009-05-31, 09:16
If you could spawn in as Grenadier/LAT it would increase the amount of spam imo. As you spawn in with max ammo.

Better to spawn in, then have to get it from a supply crate imo as it makes the supply lines more important, and preparation before a fight as well.

like, you spawn, you fire all ur grenades, you die, 30seconds later your back with ur grenade launcher.

Or your fighting an APC, you fire ur LAT, but you get killed, no biggy...spawn in.

barbdwyer22
2009-05-31, 09:38
Gameplay over realism, would not be a problem if you when you died...you're dead. =P

Cheditor
2009-05-31, 09:47
Yes but then you kill all the fun, honestly getting killed in Arma on the BHD mission when some AI got a lucky shot on you while your in a LB is really not fun.

barbdwyer22
2009-05-31, 09:54
Have to make compromises I suppose.

sakils2
2009-05-31, 10:51
If you could spawn in as Grenadier/LAT it would increase the amount of spam imo. As you spawn in with max ammo.

Better to spawn in, then have to get it from a supply crate imo as it makes the supply lines more important, and preparation before a fight as well.

like, you spawn, you fire all ur grenades, you die, 30seconds later your back with ur grenade launcher.

Or your fighting an APC, you fire ur LAT, but you get killed, no biggy...spawn in.

When you die with the limited kit, it should spawn after 5 minutes. There shouldn't be a lot of spam, if you give a relocation time. Problem solved.

joethepro36
2009-05-31, 14:59
I'm afraid I disagree you here rudd on grenadier kits being spammable. A grenadier kit, one per squad is hardly going to cause an avalanche of nades. As I previously stated, an autorifleman poses a greater threat to a squad. A grenadier has to switch to the m203, sight in while possibly taking fire, estimate range, hold for a second to ensure maximum accuracy and then launch an explosive that could perhaps take out 2-3 guys excessively close together at it's most powerful (like in a room).

The set up time for an autorifleman is a lot longer and is best done in a position where you expect contact. The strength of this is that it is only set up once before firing whereas a grenadier has to set up everytime.

When set up it is pretty unstoppable and with squad support it can win firefights . When ambushing a squad crossing a street I've seen it tear everyone down who dares set a foot off the pavement in seconds let alone it's ability to keep a whole squad pinned in cover during a regular exchange (and taking into consideration that autoriflemen will have a scope it's going to be better at this).

Regarding at kits spawning in via limited kits; It is too much and too strong. An at kit in the current version will take out a brdm or any light vehicle instantly. A lengthy set up time sure, but when you have one approaching you it's pretty much a confirmed kill and cue the unavoidable loss of tickets. Shot/naded people can be revived, dead people in vehicles and the vehicle itself cannot. More importantly it can two shot an apc/ifv which are respectively 5 and 10 tickets lost each (source is the new .86 manual). So leave it at the rifle varients, there is no need to bring back anti-tank spawn, even if it is essential to a squad.

Hell, this isn't even concerning the marksman kit which I believe should also have the spawn ability added in. I don't see it as important as the autorifleman or grenadier kits though, as it's less intergral ingame due to engagement distances being generally less than 300m.

I would just like to sum this up by asking, how many times do you die to a grenadier compared to a support gun? I've personally been hit by it considerably less.

Rudd
2009-05-31, 15:16
I'm afraid I disagree you here rudd on grenadier kits being spammable. A grenadier kit, one per squad is hardly going to cause an avalanche of nades. As I previously stated, an autorifleman poses a greater threat to a squad. A grenadier has to switch to the m203, sight in while possibly taking fire, estimate range, hold for a second to ensure maximum accuracy and then launch an explosive that could perhaps take out 2-3 guys excessively close together at it's most powerful (like in a room).


yeah, but you can take cover from bullets, those explosives will find you and kill you, then they will search your computer for pron and blow that up 2.

joethepro36
2009-05-31, 16:37
So what? Every class except the autorifleman takes cover from bullets in a firefight. And besides, in my experience, using the rifle rather than the grenade launcher as the firefight starts is far better. It is only when the enemy digs into cover (usually via a SAW) that the grenades become more useful.

Come on, the grenadier kit deserves to be a limited spawn kit and you know it. Sure it's not as important as the autorifleman and medic in the squad but having to get to supplies everytime to just get a grenadier kit (which is effectively worse than a autorifleman kit) is just a tad silly.

cplgangster
2009-05-31, 18:15
i agree somewhat but tbh the amount of time to get in to a decent place to actually use the SAW effectivly would probably take the same time if not longer as the grenedier kit tbh, if you just fire willy nilly at the hip you will hit nothing. So getting prone then deploying generally is the best thing to do to get a hit on anything. This can take time especially if there isnot adequate cover where you spawn in at.

Top_Cat_AxJnAt
2009-05-31, 20:20
The tactics required to beat the enemy depend on the weapons used. A new weapon can make a new tactic possible, while the desire to win a fight with the least looses can make employing this new tactic a necessity.

If you fight with smooth bore muskets there is almost no need to used concealment or camouflage. Fight with rifled weapons, and conceal/camo hugely increases your chances of survial and in turn becomes a important tactic.
Any type or amount of fire can suppress somebody. Using muzzle loading guns, only Company and Battalion tactics are important because hundreds of soldiers are needed to lay down just a few rounds a second of fire.
With Breach loading rifles one man can suppress one if not many, tens of men can lay down many rounds per second. Platoon and squad fire and movement tactics become both possible and essential.

Fire team are only truly born out of the machine gun, where one man can suppress countless Only. A squad can divide, with each ft able to laydown enough fire to allow the other to move.


Whether these tactics are employed in game and if any balance, realism or perceived negative issues arrise from its availability, depends on a lot of other factors. :shock:

Are the weapons realisticaly modelled. E.g. an inaccuratlly firing rifle could allow players to run across open ground for longer than is possible in rl. Making napolionic style tactics more the order of the day than they have ever been in the last 150 years! :D

The existence and layout of cover, concealement (HA!), open space exists and flag objectives on maps. E.g. a maps containing locations with both cover and concealement (bushes) and a clear field of fire (underline) over a similar location that is flag, with smaller peices of cover and concealement between the two, demand suppression and concealement tactics from the player in order to capture the flag.

If you had the above landscape but no machine guns, a squad could not (underline) divide into fire teams and have 1 ft lay down sufficeient fire to allow the other to advance. Making it very hard to employ the tactics needed to win.

The reverse, have a machine gun but in a landscape with very little openspace and little cover. Now you have no safe place to fire your mg and you dont have a clear field of fire over the enemy. Again, making this no place for many fun tactics :sad:.


All the same applies to the Grenadier kit. Its is capable of causing the same affect as the machine gun: suppression but it just delivers it in a different way, from above! Making the GL more affective than the mg at suppressing enemies inside buildings, landing shells through windows but not as so against enemies in a thick wood. Just as importantly, if not more in very open areas, the GLs smoke shells can create whopping ammounts of concealment. In these regards, the GL allows a squad suppress enemies in all situations, create concealment where there is none and therefore allow squad movement in all situations. Sounds like pure WIN to me, a 40mm in the head of stalemate and trench warefare!

But just as poor map design can affects the machine gun influence in game play, so can it on the GL. Maps with too much flat ground, and too few ditches and mounds and oh how you will regret issuing one to every squad.

Rudd
2009-05-31, 20:38
Come on, the grenadier kit deserves to be a limited spawn kit and you know it. Sure it's not as important as the autorifleman and medic in the squad but having to get to supplies everytime to just get a grenadier kit (which is effectively worse than a autorifleman kit) is just a tad silly.

not when compounded by the bf2 spawn system

imo you have to choose betweek grenadier as spawn kit or rallies and Firebases.

Or you'll have to spawn in without any m203 grenades, otherwise it will be spammy.

imo in .85 grenadier > LMG, I'm not allowed to comment on .86.

LMG doesnt take cover atm because the deployed mode can only be used while prone, changelog shows this has changed.

Skodz
2009-06-01, 05:18
How about having the squad limited SL kit have a grenadier rifle instead of the regular one. Isn't it usual to have SL grenadier in real military ?

That would make it;

1 LMG/Squad
1 grenadier (SL)/Squad
1 Medic/squad

And you could replace the ironsight SL kit with a rifleman AT.

Now you could have;

1 grenadier (SL)/Squad
1 medic/squad
1 LMG/squad
1 rifleman at/squad
1 rifleman
1 rifleman specialist

(Rifleman specialist should actually play the role of real combat ingeneer... Or replace it with squad limited combat ingeneer...)

That would make it;
(Infantry squad)

1 grenadier(SL)/Squad
1 medic/squad
1 rifleman AT/Squad
1 Combat ingeneer/Squad
1 LMG/Squad
1 rifleman

Wouldn't such a setup be much more realistic and respectful of real infantry section composition ?

The combat ingeneer should be a mixt between rifleman specialist and the actual combat ingeneer in my opinion. So it'll be effective at combat but specialised into door breaching, bridge destruction, road mining, defenses building, light equipment reparation, etc.

Skodz
2009-06-01, 05:21
Well, I guess you could also add 1 squad limited marksman... That would make full specialist squad... Maybe thats not so great of an idea.

Himalde
2009-06-08, 14:13
Love that solution with those limited kits there. I play a lot of medic and, hate being the only one doing that in the squad. I just hope the kits doesn't disappear as fast as they do now.

wuschel
2009-06-08, 16:42
The tactics required to beat the enemy depend on the weapons used. ..

Excellent posting. I enjoyed it - a lot.

2ndLt_Tracz
2009-06-15, 22:31
I think it is good enough 1 medic per squad, I mean if you have 2 medics ur squad has no firepower if they r doin their work, plus in reality there is only one medic in a squad. And you can just simply tell if people play TW on public server just by them havin a mic exept for if they are like 12 years old.

But also I am for both optical and ironsight M249, I mean like in Archer you will probably use the optics but in Fallujah or karbala they will just be a distraction and yes I thought of that a while ago, you could do the thing they had in vanilla with the locked weapons but istead of guns make it Ironsight and optical, and yee make for everyone even the specialist.

Cassius
2009-06-19, 14:41
Good call. In Jungle warfare you do not have a steady supply of LAW rounds, however a squad as good as always carries a machinegun. The new system will reflect that.