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View Full Version : Best or worst CO-Map ever in history of Project Reality


Michael_Denmark
2008-12-09, 19:25
Please, in this thread post from the CO perspective only, thank you.
Maybe a moderator could reinforce the thread with a map vote at some point?

bump!, posted in the wrong section.



--- question start ---


Gentlemen, my fellow CO players, maybe in the past you have been there too:

- Being x frustrated about that unfair map you never really understood how to win?
- Being x pleased on the subject of that easy map always wanting a CO using your tactical style?
- Being x confused in how to overcome the challenge of the width and or the depth of the map?
- Being x about y of that z map?

Gentlemen, may I have your attention, the best or the worst map. Was it:

- the terrain it self?
- the balance of the opposing forces?
- the standard or limited assets available?
- the deployable assets available?
- the map being too demanding on your troops skill level, your squad leaders skill level.....or your skill level?
- something not posted above?


What was it making that map the best or the worst of them all?



--- question end ---



Your opinion in position to be deployed Commander

Michael_Denmark
2008-12-10, 18:48
Worst CO map in my opinion:

STREET

The following text, is using a commander player perspective only. I`ve played this map many times my self, as a trooper and squad leader having great game times doing so. Thus this is not a whiner post to the map developer, if the person in question feels so, please accept my apology.

Bj2zW7rLj4s


The map size

First of all the operational size of this beautiful designed urban map is simply too small to establish the option of actually making a real difference as a CO player. Too few CO options available. Not that it doesn?t matter for a team to use a CO ordering in example minimum one INF element to every of the three west-east urban corridors, but a decent team would take care of this highly basic issue it self. Even the use of a reserve element could be taken care of by a decent team too, simply because the map is as small and simple as it is.

Note: A decent team is one having no CO and where the squad leaders adapt to the overall situation, covering all flanks/flags/assets needed to be so. They either do that by naming them self?s i.e. South, Centre, North, Reserve, Flag or by using overall chat, or by using map experience and intuition.


CO-Creativity

Secondly, although restrictions generally speaking is the mother of creativity, Street just doesn?t get high enough on the CO-Creativity-Ladder; again, the small size of the map it self and the narrow size the of urban corridors is the reason for that. Being creative as CO ordering 31 players around in three narrow corridors is impossible in my experience. Being coordinative as CO doing the same is absolutely possible, but then again, so many other maps provide that option too.

Thus, unless the CO creativity shows it self as high levelled fire/smoke/movement-coordination embedded in some sort of pre-planned squad-based timing-equation, involving a randomly-set game-server using a ?disconnect x amount of both teams players throughout the round? -program, Street is still simply too small and too narrow for reaching the creativity zone as a CO player. And again, a decent team could at least take basic care of the coordination it self too; using fire/smoke and movement up/down any of the three west-east corridors. Ill go as long as agreeing in the fact that the first few times any CO player would try out a pre-planned fire/smoke plan on Street, it would be a fun challenge, but soon that challenge would drop close to zero, meaning no fun.


Training

When a (mainly tournament) CO wants to find a suitable map where the leaders on a team can be trained and evolve their team-sized skills, Street could actually be used as a basic training map for Command, Control and Communications, but then again, so many other PR maps out there provides the similar CCC training factors and sadly to Street, much more too.


Advanced Tournament training/planning

All warfare is based on deception. Thus using a map like Street as a planning and training decoy map for another map, could be used too, but then again, so many other maps out there provide the same decoy factors.


Worst CO map in my opinion

The tuff CO-perspective verdict therefore is deployed as follows:

Street is like an empty box of chocolate?
you always know what your gonna get;
nothing

Fishbone
2008-12-10, 23:10
Interesting post, but why did you put so much effort writing about a map that has been taken out of PR a while ago and will most likely never return?

Mastatschief
2008-12-11, 00:25
ramiel would need streets atmosphere, want to say street in the size of ramiel with ramiel layout would be great.

ramiel is nice too but still too clean imho.

sry for the spam

Michael_Denmark
2008-12-11, 14:59
Interesting post, but why did you put so much effort writing about a map that has been taken out of PR a while ago and will most likely never return?

Thanks.

Because it still has a place in the history of Project Reality.

Michael_Denmark
2008-12-11, 15:08
Can it really be true, that no other CO player out there has an opinion about the worst and or best CO map in the history of Project Reality?

gclark03
2008-12-12, 23:04
Sadly, yes.

My worst memories of command are actually on public Kashan games.

That alone says it all.

Eddiereyes909
2008-12-13, 00:22
Gotta agree, maps might suck or be great. Hell, you can have the best CO map ever, but if the SL's dont follow orders there no point.

Guess I'll just stick to the PRT.

Outlawz7
2008-12-13, 09:11
I found pre-0.7 Jabal challenging as the USMC commander due the fact that the uber advantage that MEC had especially in 0.6 really needed some brains on the US team to win, else everyone flew around in choppers and accomplished nothing.
Post 0.7 was also good, but then you'd assign a squad to defend East Beach and everyone would fly around capping flags not worrying about losing because they always had a flag to hang on.

Michael_Denmark
2008-12-14, 16:46
Sadly, yes.

My worst memories of command are actually on public Kashan games.

That alone says it all.

If I understand you correctly, public rounds can quite easily turn into jazz, that is true, but map wise Kashan in my opinion, has to be a candidate of being among the best CO maps; so many options available on that map.

Come to think of it, its atually more dificult to pick the best CO map than the worst.

Gclark03 did I understand you correctly or is it the map it self, that in your opinion simply dosent present enough tactical challenges as CO?

Michael_Denmark
2008-12-14, 17:24
Eddiereyes909;869444']Gotta agree, maps might suck or be great. Hell, you can have the best CO map ever, but if the SL's dont follow orders there no point.

Guess I'll just stick to the PRT.

Yes, that was one of my main reasons for joining the tournament too back then, trying to find a game environment where players followed orders.

At some point between Campaign V and VI i decided to make an attempt of trying to join public teams having no commander and at the same time loosing the round. One mostly finds teams with SLs not following orders in those situatiopns, when morale is close to zero.

I did that for around - not sure - maybe 20 rounds? and actually began liking parts of it. The special challenge a loosing public team provides when you go CO is not something I at that point had tried before. I never won one of those 20? rounds, but I got x experience/knowledge about how to regroup and inspire loosing players getting punched in the head al the time, trying to defend the last one or two flags from a winning team putting on the pressure.

Point is that by trying to challenge my self with the to me negative dynamic it is when SLs don't follow orders, by taking command of teams loaded with such types, some maps suddenly gave me a completely new angle to them, due to the fact that those rounds took part near the main base only and with teams being downed in morale and spirit too.

From that self-made “training-program”, I remember a map like Ejod dessert where I one time succeed in not loosing the last flag before we went out of tickets. I took command just as the second last flag was lost and it was just a useful learning experience; cause few squad leaders actually did follow orders, thus I decided to focus on them only and simply ignore the rest. That decision, I think, “saved” the day...in that round :-)

Ejod dessert is in my mind, really hard to command on as a Downfall-CO (if one can call it that in English), cause the main base surroundings (on both sides) has no really useful re-group area. In that sense, trying to stop a winning teams intense pressure on those last flags, is a CO-map-challenge Ejod can provide along with example Kashan too.

But yes, beside of that little experiment, I agree that the tournament is the best way to play Project Reality.

Michael_Denmark
2008-12-14, 17:40
Outlawz;869632']I found pre-0.7 Jabal challenging as the USMC commander due the fact that the uber advantage that MEC had especially in 0.6 really needed some brains on the US team to win, else everyone flew around in choppers and accomplished nothing.
Post 0.7 was also good, but then you'd assign a squad to defend East Beach and everyone would fly around capping flags not worrying about losing because they always had a flag to hang on.

Agree, Jabal from the US CO perspective has been a good challenge and is probably that still today? (haven't played the 0.8 version my self)
What about tournament experience as US CO on Jabal, any experience there, any opinion?

I also think Jabal has proven it self to be a good training map in overall; Waterline crossing, Air, Urban and so forth. No forest/jungle fighting though.

Michael_Denmark
2008-12-25, 21:23
Best CO map in my opinion:

Qinling

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The map


Size

The operational size of this beautiful hilly forest map is just massive. The amount of battle-space provided for whatever one wants to try out in the craftsmanship of example mobile and static warfare, is in my opinion more than enough when taking my subjective experience of the average PR CO skill-level into consideration. And in that regard I think the map of Qinling is ahead most of the PR Commander skills out there. We the CO players, simply still don?t have the organisational, tactical and communicational skills required to make use of all the options Qinling, as a whole offers.

To the skilled PR CO, the sheer map size will often provide a second chance if having lost a significant initial engagement in a round. Thus if you?re the Freeze-Type commander, loosing the ability to act when the Sierra hits the fan, Qinling actually offers you time to deploy your self into action-mode again and regroup your team accordingly. Other maps in PR does offer that same opportunity too, but not on the scale as Qinling.


Terrain

The terrain is beautiful designed. It consist of hilly landscape combined with the light forest environment, a huge water obstacle in the centre of the map and a river in the north middle part of the map. All together the terrain features makes Qinling a beyond doubt challenge when moving ones team around in a safe manner, making sure its not going to be ambushed entering that next main grid. At the same time the terrain combined with the operational size of the map, makes it possible to use a team in loads of different set-ups too. Finally every flag zone has constructions added to provide basic urban warfare challenges too.

The huge amount of fairly north-south valley corridors and ridges too and the fact you most lightly somewhere/anywhere on the map will become engaged on the cross-axis of x of those, is it in self a superior PR CO learning ground. On most other maps out there it?s the same places where the battles are won or lost, thus the learning factor often base it self from those same places. This pattern if you will, also exist on Qinling too, but due to the unique specifics of this map, the chance for a pattern-break is more lightly to happen. Especially if the team is a veteran team from Project Reality Tournament.


Assets

The amount of assets available on Qinling are almost second to none in the game environment of Project Reality. They offer numerous options of how to be used, both for the basic Project Reality Commander and the advanced one too. Actually, the assets them self combined with the hilly forest terrain and the operational size of the map too, provide a highly unique PR CO challenge too. Until I began playing the game as CO in the Project Reality Tournament I never was aware of this fact, but in the tournament I got a wake up call if you will. It was cool to experience that Qinling opened my eyes up for that.

As the trained and experienced PRT CO will be aware of, both the Armour leader and the Air leader and also, if skilled up enough (through team sized training hopefully), the Infantry leader/s too (in set-ups where the team is organised in two-three services) can have their own subjective service-based-viewpoints on how this map should be processed. Thus, in such case, its vital for a CO to completely understand those one-sided points of views, both in their width and in their depth, sole and combined with each other too. Not that those POWs automatically will diverge from each other, but the map and its assets does provide exactly such a potential unique challenge. I experienced that I had to get more into the service-knowledge if you will that on any other map I have played out there, simply because the leaders I played with at that point, had evolved their own specific skills.


CO-Creativity

Restrictions is the mother of creativity and the Qinling map, is so rich in providing that potential. Again, the operational size, the terrain features and the assets all contributes to that outcome. As CO, one cant, as one in fact can on Street, cover all parts of the map with ones forces. Thus in order to designate focus to the sub-units on a PR team playing Qinling, coordinated and meaningful organisational, tactical and communicational restrictions are necessary. Consequently creativity is simply borne out the very map design of Qinling it self. That fact alone, is in my mind, just awesome and shows the future non-traditional potential of this game, this MOD, Project Reality.

The lack of any real conventional reason for making use of the ground-area in the northwest part of the map, due to the absence of flags and important assets, opens up for new thoughts, creating new ideas that can ? if not change ones tactical view ? then at least influence it. Both in regard to Qinling it self and other PR maps too. So, that?s nice to experience as a so-called tactical player. Not all PR maps have had the designed volume so to say, to bring such tactical benefit online and through the screen even before going to battle.

Trying to go creative when ordering around 31 players on this unique designed tactical map, involving all those assets is just awesome. I recall that when I realised my team faced the challenge to play this map in the tournaments campaign 6, I decided for a map strategy, where this map ? in case we could pick it our self - was the last we were to play due to the great many challenges it presented for a/my team as a whole.


Training

When a (mainly tournament) CO want to find a suitable map where the leaders on a team can be trained and evolve their team-sized skills, Qinling can be used as both basic and advanced training area too. It can also be used as a test map for organisational, tactical and communicational ideas.


Advanced Tournament training/planning

All warfare is based on deception. Thus using a map like Qinling provides pretty much all what?s needed including being used as a decoy map too.


Best CO map in my opinion

The CO verdict sounds like as follows:

Qinling is a magic box of chocolate, you always know what your gonna get; everything and more!


https://imageshack.com/i/pmFdPRrgj

=(DK)=stoffen_tacticalsup
2009-01-15, 14:03
Commanding Chineese on 7 Gates is a thing you only EVER(!) do once.

Everyone who knows that map, and has played it comm; will agree.


Best map to command is opperation archer. BC the terrain itself simply allows the USMC commander to utilize realworld tactics. FSG's, presicion strikes, oh the list goes on.
2/5 of my best commanding experiences is on Archer.

Another not-good-commander-map is US Army on Korengal. Lack of assets and manouvrebility for those that are makes the comm a bit unnessecary, save for arty ofc. But when you nolonger get wtf-bqq'ed from the molotov (from hell) inside a stryker, that might change.
Insurgents though, is quite funny tbh :)

Kashan and Qingling are great for their complexity. But MEC commander on Kashan is pain BC of the unbalance in the map. North village is on the way to the bunker complex. South village is the middle of nowhere. US army will allso be fastes on the bunkers thx to the super-1337-awesome-pwnage (or SLAP, dansk joke ;) ) speed of the Black-Hawk. OH and Bradley is better than the BMP-3. (This ofc only applies to 0.8 since it will be the BEST apc in the game in 0.85, at least I think). BUT id rather command MEC, bc, the BMP-3 is my favourite vehicle in the game. And MEC-INF ;) rocks! Both of the maps are hard on infantry sq's though. And currently, they allso take forever to complete (400 tickets). But then again, this will allso be changed! (Not the amount of tickets, but you loose tickets when you loose assets.)

Ins comm on ramiel = fail. Basrah, boring, but a very nessecary job.

Royal_marine_machine
2009-04-17, 14:06
I agree operation archer is a brilliant map, as it is pretty much vital to have a commander to co-ordinate your forces, and you can use realistic tactics, and squads requiring support and extraction etc. keeps you busy.

Also, I enjoy using my team as a mobile strike force, and in operation archer you have everything you need to make this happen.

Korengal valley is a very, incredibly challenging map to play, but with both korengal valley and Operration archer, I also was forced to get involved in a firefight, as the taliban attacked our main (wasnt against the rules on the server I played on) and it was quite enjoyable to be commandign the whole force, then getting out of my command post and commanding a defensive of the main with ahny forces I had there, even shooting a couple of taliban myself.

I like that how in most insurgent vs NATO it is best to have a squad back at main (i have a rosta of toops at main) to protect it from assault.

Michael_Denmark
2016-11-18, 10:10
Does anyone know what happened to that great music video of Qinling? It was quite long, 5-9 minutes, portraying all the assets, just awesome, I used it in this thread back then but now it is not on youtube anymore, copy right stuff?

X-Alt
2016-11-18, 23:04
Does anyone know what happened to that great music video of Qinling? It was quite long, 5-9 minutes, portraying all the assets, just awesome, I used it in this thread back then but now it is not on youtube anymore, copy right stuff?
Probably gone.


I still miss camping British main on troll accounts.

Michael_Denmark
2016-11-21, 09:22
Hopefully the maker of it still has it on the hard drive. If I recall it correctly, it had quite a few views on tube, but it was in fact quite awesome made, the music was particular great.