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dbzao
2007-12-15, 11:00
Another gameplay change we are working on is improving the spotting system. It can be easily exploitable and it has unrealistic features that we want to remove.

We think it doesn't make sense that a grunt in a ditch somewhere can spot an enemy and instantly provide his entire team the enemy's position, movement and type (infantry, sniper, vehicle, tank, etc).

Also if you have played PR for some time, you may have noticed that the easiest way to get an enemy location is not to use your eyes, but Q spam an area and hope that the system "catches" that location.

First, infantry can't auto-spot. You still have the "spotted" option in the Q comm rose but that can only be used to shout a message to close-by troops that you have seen enemy forces. Pay attention to where your team mates are looking when spotting and you can help them out.

Second, vehicles can auto-spot, but only other vehicles. Auto-spotting vehicles isn't much of an exploit like it is with infantry. They are bigger and louder, easier to spot. We think reporting single infantry positions is not realistic, and having a red circle moving in the map, showing exactly where he is, is not realistic either. You can still Q spot the area with some "question marks" that wont move around, but will give your team mates an approximate location of the enemy.

Third, squad leaders receive a special mix of the spotting system. In addition to the points above, they can right-click the Q comm rose or right-click on the map and select an option from a list to mark that location. Like in v0.6, only important spottings are transmitted over the radio. Internally, we say that the squad leader is carrying a radio on his back and is responsible for reporting enemy activies higher in the chain of command. We know that in real life it's another squad member's role, but having a squad limited to six players and the voip system as it is, we think it's a good compromise.

We think this is a great improvement to the mod as it removes the problems mentioned in the beginning and forces players to rely on squad communication and their own eyes to be successful, instead of a blinking red circle moving around the minimap.

Other updates in gameplay will also improve these changes, but that is a topic for another post ;)

Viglen
2007-12-15, 11:28
Great i like the SL idea ;-)

SNIPERxWOLFxGB
2007-12-15, 11:28
I love these changes :D

Good Job PR team.

Sadist_Cain
2007-12-15, 11:29
Sweet :D, so how about the big green friendlies all over the map? are they gone too? :D *crosss fingers*

PR is like making vodka, all impurities must be removed :D

Outlawz7
2007-12-15, 11:31
Hmm, does that mean, that there will be no more red dots on map, only question marks and manually spotted?

Will infantry spotting a tank still appear as a red tank on map, but without the text (as it is atm)?

Ragni<RangersPL>
2007-12-15, 11:33
Every thing that will remove/fix "Q spam" is a good thing ;)

=Romagnolo=
2007-12-15, 12:03
Every thing that will remove/fix "Q spam" is a good thing ;)

Right !

But, is it possible to make a model of a radio, or an antena on the SL backpack to simulate that there is a radion with him ?

The idea of "shout" tho the squad members is great.

Every new PR version that is going to come out is a bunch of surprises and revolutions on the game play.


Thank you DEVs, GREAT WORK.

Himalde
2007-12-15, 14:27
I like it, while on the subject, could you add: "Weapon cache located, here" on ins, and make it stay till the cache has been destroyed?

I hope it's OK to post it here, if not please forgive me.

SWIZZ=kettcar=
2007-12-15, 14:34
nice idea, to bring more realistic gameplay into PR.

LekyIRL
2007-12-15, 14:39
Great idea!
Nice work again Dev's ;)

Waaah_Wah
2007-12-15, 14:57
Yet again i wanna make love to PR DEV's...

hall0
2007-12-15, 15:22
Ok how i understand this changes we will in 0,7 nearly the same spotting system have like in FH2.
The problem here will be that we will have a lot of teamkills in 0,7 because we dont have the chance to identify the enemy.
So I´m just waiting for threads like this "Just teamkills and this destroye the mod..."

arneboe
2007-12-15, 15:43
well.. maybe there will be a little more teamkills right after 0.7 is released, but when people figure out how to "play again" it will proboably return to normal.. I really like the idea!

dbzao
2007-12-15, 15:52
The spotting system is not the reason of the TKs in FH2. The reason are players not used to the lack of nametags at distance. That was the same problem in PR when we did it 4 releases ago and will remain the same for newcomers on this one.

hall0
2007-12-15, 16:26
I don´t say that this is the reason of the teamkills in FH2, we tested it for month and we didn´t have so much teamkills. Many of the teamkills at the moment are just nobish sounds hard but it´s so.
But back to topic. PR isn´t FH2. In PR we fight on other distances and lots of uniforms looking similar thats why the spotting system is the only effective system to differ friend and enemy.

Clypp
2007-12-15, 16:55
I'm a little confused. Can infantry spot vehicles only? Or can vehicles and SLs spot vehicles only and nobody can spot infantry?

hall0
2007-12-15, 17:35
How i understand this everyone can spot everything but just the SL can spot like in 0,6 so that everyone can see it on the minimap. The other guys also spot enemys but it isnt show at the minimap you just hear a sound like "enemy ... spotted"

SethLive!
2007-12-15, 17:55
i like the changes but i think anyone should be able to right click and spot like the sl.

Outlawz7
2007-12-15, 17:59
Actually, can we keep the moving red dot infantry spotting, but make it squad internal? Because if you're in a tank and someone else in your squad, who's also in a tank, spots something, he won't jump out of the hatch and shout "Yo, enemy sniper spotted over there!" :p

fuzzhead
2007-12-15, 18:11
yes hallo right

the ONLY time something will be auto-spotted and tracks is when your in a vehicle, spotting OTHER vehicles.

SethLive!
2007-12-15, 18:14
can regular infantry right click and spot?

$kelet0r
2007-12-15, 19:06
about time.
hopefully in time the spotting indicator will be on the 3d map as a small but unobstrusive little icon like an inverse triangle or closed brackets ... rather than on the minimap as it is currently - to simulate someone physically pointing in the direction of targets.

Sabre_tooth_tigger
2007-12-15, 20:38
well.. maybe there will be a little more teamkills right after 0.7 is released, but when people figure out how to "play again" it will proboably return to normal.. I really like the idea!

Its definetly possible to get by without manually spotting people, minimap is allready very helpfull. I think N is the default key for toggling zoom (to max), or flick between the main map alot which is what I tend to do though it can still go wrong:lol:

This sounds like a good compromise anyway. If I understand it right, on basra for example only a SL will be able to spot a cache as a boat & hostile infantary markers will never be seen again by anyone. '

I admit I have done this in a heli because I could not see anyone from so far up, I guess I will have an excuse to upgrade to 2500x1900 on a 52" screen now

Symplify
2007-12-15, 21:36
Sweet :D, so how about the big green friendlies all over the map? are they gone too? :D *crosss fingers*

PR is like making vodka, all impurities must be removed :D

Uh... so no spot system and no way to identify a friendly on the map? That'll work well. /sarcasm

Don't say that you just gotta look for the camo, because new people/people with low graphics won't be able to.

blud
2007-12-16, 01:02
I think all infantry should be able to auto-spot vehicles. This simulates the fact that in real life they would tell their SL and he would communicate that information. Otherwise tons of people are gonna be like "Bloood, spot that vehicle, blood, come spot this vehicle!" lol

Dan UK
2007-12-16, 01:37
Great ideas :D. you should introduce a radio operator class that can spot things and best of all he can have a "whippey" antenna on his back :P. just a thought :-)

Teek
2007-12-16, 01:40
BludShoT;551015']I think all infantry should be able to auto-spot vehicles. This simulates the fact that in real life they would tell their SL and he would communicate that information. Otherwise tons of people are gonna be like "Bloood, spot that vehicle, blood, come spot this vehicle!" lol
The way I understand it, is that you have to manually spot vehicles, I think that Inf should be able to auto spot a large 70 ton war machine such as a tank however. Because if a tank rolls into view, it could slaughter your squad before you are able to manually spot it. "TANK! GET DOWN" (auto spot) or "Enemy forces spotted" *squad ignores it because they think its Inf too far away to shoot them* = *6 dead*.

00SoldierofFortune00
2007-12-16, 01:47
BludShoT;551015']I think all infantry should be able to auto-spot vehicles. This simulates the fact that in real life they would tell their SL and he would communicate that information. Otherwise tons of people are gonna be like "Bloood, spot that vehicle, blood, come spot this vehicle!" lol


I agree. If a humvee or vodnik suddenly attacked a position or infantry, then the people being attacked would definately get a bead on them somehow so that they can get backup or reinforcements.

Doom721
2007-12-16, 02:47
The new spotting system will only help the types of squads I like to play in...

As of know I am a Q spot spammer, and then immediately warn the squad which direct and location - and marking of vehicles for HAT.

No longer will infantry be able to super pinpoint armor for HAT targets in infantry squads, infantry now will have MUCH MORE COVER REALISTICALLY

If you are covered visually and have not fired, you may be 10x more safer this way

Vehicle V Vehicle spotting, yeah I would rather not have that at all, but I suppose it isn't that bad.

This is going to make infantry more stealthy in a sense, and forcing squads to be more alert - and it will only make me AN EVIL MOFO WHO COMES FROM NOWHERE :twisted:

This is a dream come true for the spotting system - and I'm sure a well posistioned squad who CAN NOT be spotted, but is engaging targets will be heavily effective now :D

Sabre_tooth_tigger
2007-12-16, 02:48
Doesnt sound that strict really, anyone in reach of a vehicle will be able to jump in and report an enemy vehicle. You wont have to bug the SL always

Either way Im eternally gratefull for never having to listen 'enemy infantary spotted' read out thirty times in a row by the CO

Sadist_Cain
2007-12-16, 04:49
Uh... so no spot system and no way to identify a friendly on the map? That'll work well. /sarcasm

Don't say that you just gotta look for the camo, because new people/people with low graphics won't be able to.

Uh... No I said remove all friendlies from the map. You could still have a spotting system like the Devs have made now where you can shout to alert your squad to an enemy nearby.

The difference could be that if you spot a friendly soldier your character just shouts "Hold your fire!"/Intelligence

Razick
2007-12-16, 06:09
The guys who are opposed to this need to reread Dbzao's post to get a clearer picture. Your character will still shout out what he spotted like normal but the red mark on the map will not show. This will force squad member to be more cohesive and keep each other alive. Important targets can be "radioed" in to the rest of the team. Its more realistic that way. But I do think the normal grunt spotting should stay in place but be a squad exclusive spot as in only your squad can see it and youll need to SL spot to comm it to the rest of the team. The new system sounds like it could work but well just need to adjust and stop panicking.

Smuke
2007-12-16, 07:45
great Idea

DEVs we worship you your holiness. *bends Down*

<1sk>Headshot
2007-12-16, 12:46
I don't like it.

Q-spotting simulated relaying an enemy position to squad and team-mates over radio. Now you're going to have to look at which one of your squad is saying everything. If you're in the middle of a firefight and everyone is using different commands and VOIP this is useless.

Now we're going to have to give the exact position of every enemy to our squadmates over VOIP, creating lots of chatter. Possibly even have to type over teamchat that there is an enemy heading to a friendly squad.

How about introducing a Radio in your inventory from which anything can be spotted?

I really dislike this idea :/

DarthDisco
2007-12-16, 13:57
While i like this idea initially, i think that some of the more far reaching consequences may have been overlooked, particularly in reference to spotting where vehicles are concerned.

We all know that the ability to spot other vehicles is critical to success when operating a tank/apc/helicopter, and that this is best accomplished by having other infantry on the ground spot these vehicles out for you.

While I wholeheartedly agree that removing the red dot for infantry is accepable, I do not think it at all unrealistic that even a common soldier would not be capable or unwilling to report the location of something like an enemy tank.

I would have the system modified so that anyone can still spot large vehicles like tanks/apcs/helicopters, as this provides a crucial edge to the rest of the team. It does not have to be a Q spam kind of spot, it could be a right click option; and you could even limit it to certain kits who would be more likely to be involved in a reconassaince role (i.e. Spec Ops, Sniper).

Bottom line: I believe that giving only squad leaders the ability to radio the location of important enemy assets will cause a severe lack of intelligence where inter-squad teamwork is concerned. 0.7 is already going to put a whole new level of responsibility on the squad leader with the ability to place and construct commander assets, we can't expect them to handle all of their regular resposibilities, and construction, AND relaying the location of every enemy vehicle their squad sees... not to mention that somewhere in there they have to actually defend themselves from attack.

bosco_
2007-12-16, 14:08
Adapt and overcome guys. :P

*spacecadett*
2007-12-16, 15:06
this system is intresting as it really comes down to the fine line of voip and teamwork! commander and SLs will have to relay inforamtion to one another.this system really puts the lone wolves at a disadvantage, teamwork FTW

101 bassdrive
2007-12-16, 16:52
I might not have understood this to the fullest..
- the average soldier cant put markers on the radar, alright. could it be possible to make the model point the direction when he spots? like look there!
- could there be an option to explicitly spot SL?
- arent vehicles important things which are being communicated really fast up the foodchain and therefore should be seen by all?
- shouldnt aircrafts be able to know every vehicle position no matter where they are on the map? atm a SL aa-vehicle spotting cant be seen if youre to far away ( kashan)
other than that a really nice step forward.

Sadist_Cain
2007-12-16, 17:57
It does not have to be a Q spam kind of spot, it could be a right click option; and you could even limit it to certain kits who would be more likely to be involved in a reconassaince role (i.e. Spec Ops, Sniper).

Bottom line: I believe that giving only squad leaders the ability to radio the location of important enemy assets will cause a severe lack of intelligence where inter-squad teamwork is concerned. 0.7 is already going to put a whole new level of responsibility on the squad leader with the ability to place and construct commander assets, we can't expect them to handle all of their regular resposibilities, and construction, AND relaying the location of every enemy vehicle their squad sees... not to mention that somewhere in there they have to actually defend themselves from attack.

Sounds good. I think the system is ok as is (if you see a tank/apc, w/e then you should just shout enemy forces and look in the direction)

The spec ops and sniper should definately be given the option to right click and spot certain vehicles (perhaps just tanks +apcs) again, only to their squad.
I think at the moment the ayatem will just make snipers already more useless than most of them are.

Having a sniper able to right click and spot vehicles and report back to the squad accurately simulates being able to take down a 6 figure grid referance and give the position of a key enemy unit to your SL. Its then the SLs decision to taike action against that vehicle or to radio its location in to the CO/rest of team. after all what can a sniper do against armour.

the more I ponder the more its definately obvious that it will be a huge mistake to deliberately remove the snipers ability to effectively give Recon (Like they do anyway, at least with a modded spot system snipers will have to work with the team to spot their infantry targets and the squad will have the information on harder targets provided by the sniper so they can choose the appropriate action. Just like irl :D

Sabre_tooth_tigger
2007-12-16, 18:33
Didnt they say the question mark will still appear?

You could still use chat to communicate if the SL is no good and there is no truck nearby. People still have the option of teamspeak/roger wilco to share this info with everyone

markonymous
2007-12-16, 19:01
love it good job!!! :D:D:D

btw is there a way to link the squadleaders via VoIP?

Teek
2007-12-16, 19:20
love it good job!!! :D:D:D

btw is there a way to link the squadleaders via VoIP?
no.

fuzzhead
2007-12-16, 19:42
Sadist Cain: when was the last time you ever saw a sniper in PR do anything remotely useful for a team? be honest here....

Viper5
2007-12-16, 21:32
hmm Kenwayy and I do great things for our team

Juniper and I hold down the VCP and Basrah FOB all the time with his Landy and my L115

99lynx
2007-12-16, 21:52
well now you may as well take the sniper class right out of the game, because they are completely useless without being able to spot, and without knw where enemys are. This is also a bad idea. I think there are too many changees being made too quickly.

bosco_
2007-12-16, 21:55
The Sniper kit is getting useless???
What???
WHAT SHOULD I PLAY NOW???
IM GOING BACK TO CSS!!!111

Anyway, it's not.

99lynx
2007-12-16, 21:56
hey buddy cut that out if your gunna get sarcastic about it

Waaah_Wah
2007-12-16, 21:59
Trip wires ftw?

fuzzhead
2007-12-17, 02:17
Snipers will retain a useful role when used correctly guys... the problem is vast majority of players is attracted to the romantic idea of a sniper, and not the actual realistic role a sniper plays

Clypp
2007-12-17, 02:54
I think snipers should get the spot ability. It is very realistic and will be good for gameplay.

danthemanbuddy
2007-12-17, 03:00
See the thing with snipers is this..

Lets use 2 players for example. Me and strktmbullseye usually play together. If we use normal rifles on say basrah we could get a shitload of kills and destroy caches.

However lets see if we got a sniper kit / spotter we could kill 10-30 ppl altogether and survive. But end up losing the round due to not taking action.

Point of the story is, if you are able to point and click you will be more effective on the ground as a rifleman than as a sniper.

Razick
2007-12-17, 04:55
Snipers arent rifle grunts. There job isnt to get long range kills and engage in heavy combat, thats the squad rifle marksman's job. Snipers are more effective in reconnaissance , foward observation, and high priority target aquisition/elimination. Of course you are not gonna be effective as a sniper if your using it for the single purpose of killing people at longer ranges. That would be a waste of the sniper kits potential advantage as an invisible eye and depriving it of the clinical killing machine of extreme prejudice that is.

kristofer
2007-12-18, 16:26
Excellent suggestions! I believe that on close-quarters maps, like Operation Ghost Train (jungle?), it will be much more atmospheric to hear shouts.

Jantje|NL^
2007-12-18, 18:10
I like this update,..

I will keep giving enemy positions over public chat, that's funniest way of spotting!

Sadist_Cain
2007-12-18, 19:03
Snipers arent rifle grunts. There job isnt to get long range kills and engage in heavy combat, thats the squad rifle marksman's job. Snipers are more effective in reconnaissance , foward observation, and high priority target aquisition/elimination.


Someones done theyre homework. :D

Response to Fuzzhead, I've hardley ever seen a sniper kit used properly I know that I myself and others who know how can employ the techniques of reconaissance and so forth, the problem is that the exact same job can be done by any grunt on the battlefield.

With what you fellas are saying has been changed about the spotting system it seems you have the perfect chance to enable the sniper to have a use in the battlefield as an effective teamwide tool of recon, a role that seems now to be placed solely on the SLs shoulders.
Squadleaders do do recon but they cant effectively, thats the snipers job! Otherwise he gets bored runs around and shoots everything :P

If the sniper becomes one of the few people able to spot then there will be a pressure and a reason to use it as most SLs are likely to be engaged in combat when the recon is needed the most. Folk will be forced into more effective vantages to be able to spot the enemy, naturally :D

Of course you are not gonna be effective as a sniper if your using it for the single purpose of killing people at longer ranges. That would be a waste of the sniper kits potential advantage as an invisible eye...

BEST quote ever, thats what removing a snipers ability to spot would do :D make it far worse by really just making it a high powered scoped rifle with a ghilli suit, nothing more.
Give them the ability to spot and they can do what snipers were meant for! when you see those tanks being spotted behind you, and its by the sniper it'll all be worth it :D

dbzao
2007-12-18, 19:07
;)

Lieutenant-FPS-Bob
2007-12-18, 19:12
I like the sniper spotting idea.

Silvarius2000
2007-12-19, 06:53
IMHO guys. Snipers arent being at their best when people are aware of them am I right? In a small non changing environment such as pretty much any map with fixed objectives and no variables its pretty easy to guess where snipers would operate.

Dont forget that snipers operate out of environments where they are not expected. (behind lines or unpopulated areas). These maps all are expected to have snipers and already their advantage of surprise is already wasted.

To sum it up I dont think that the sniper really has a role in most maps except for Insurgency type maps.

Love the spotting system suggested though. DesertCombat actually had it ok with F2 enemy spotted accompanied with chat :)

Fearosius
2007-12-19, 09:01
Makes it much intense and realistic, also snipers will have a great time picking off enemies without being instantly 'Q-spammed'.

Jantje|NL^
2007-12-19, 18:30
What about Civilians?

dbzao
2007-12-19, 18:34
oh yeah... we forgot about them :p

I don't know... maybe we do it so if they are holding the rock they can spot? That's the only thing that make them unique.

Top_Cat_AxJnAt
2007-12-19, 18:40
LOL, nice to know you are really human, the whole creating the greatest realism mo requiring immense teamwork and tactics detracts from that aspect!

Jantje|NL^
2007-12-19, 18:40
dbzao;554051']oh yeah... we forgot about them :p

I don't know... maybe we do it so if they are holding the rock they can spot? That's the only thing that make them unique.

I think holding the binoculars would be better and more realistic than holding a rock?

I think an angry 'civilian' won't conversate about enemy positions with rocks in their hands and anger in their faces.. will they?

Civilians should stay back on top of houses with bincoulars in their hands and not sprinting in the wide open to get catched by the infidels.. while having a rock in their hands to spot..

Teek
2007-12-20, 00:22
I think holding the binoculars would be better and more realistic than holding a rock?

I think an angry 'civilian' won't conversate about enemy positions with rocks in their hands and anger in their faces.. will they?

Civilians should stay back on top of houses with bincoulars in their hands and not sprinting in the wide open to get catched by the infidels.. while having a rock in their hands to spot..

Or they have the rock in there hand while running. Kinda like a person yelling RAPE!

solodude23
2007-12-20, 03:46
When the SL right clicks and spots on the map I hope it places a marker that lasts alot longer than the current one. With the vBF2 system it was alot more fast paced and markers didn't need to last long. However if it is going to be made if you have to right click to spot something (good idea btw) then I really hope the marker lasts at least a minute or so.

dbzao
2007-12-20, 03:50
Sorry... can't change that timer...

About the civilian, he will be able to manually spot things while using the binoculars. I added the same binoculars to snipers of all factions, so they will able to manually spot using the rifle or the binoculars. ;)

kristofer
2007-12-20, 12:37
I guess everyone will be switching to English-only voices then if there aren't any text messages - unless you've memorised each phrase :o

Jantje|NL^
2007-12-20, 15:54
I guess everyone will be switching to English-only voices then if there aren't any text messages - unless you've memorised each phrase :o

Qoshi chin gou li ~ I need a cuppa tea, badly. / Enemy tank spotted.

CCP - Chinese Comunication Phrases

It isn't that hard..

dbzao;554579']BLADIEBLADIEBLA

About the civilian, he will be able to manually spot things while using the binoculars. BLADIEBLADIEBLA

Yay!

Sabre_tooth_tigger
2007-12-20, 18:30
Dam those civs, how dare they have radios. As for snipers, they often form their own squad anyway so would be squad leaders and so would be able to spot everything bar infantary anyway so quit your moaning! :lol:

Vlade.the_medic
2007-12-21, 06:40
Well this will make this better I dont doubt I have been spotted by the random clicking

Jantje|NL^
2007-12-21, 12:07
Dam those civs, how dare they have radios. As for snipers, they often form their own squad anyway so would be squad leaders and so would be able to spot everything bar infantary anyway so quit your moaning! :lol:

Civs got mobile phones or high speed donkeys to send messages!

Donkeys FTW !

AfterDune
2007-12-21, 12:31
Civvies indeed have mobile phones. They wear Nike's and may even listen to middle-eastern R&B! Civvies are the chavs of the middle-east! Who knows, maybe one day they'll start wearing hoodies and start talking gangsta' style!!

:o

Jantje|NL^
2007-12-21, 13:14
AfterDune;555665']Civvies indeed have mobile phones. They wear Nike's and may even listen to middle-eastern R&B! Civvies are the chavs of the middle-east! Who knows, maybe one day they'll start wearing hoodies and start talking gangsta' style!!

:o

Civilians are the new americans :O


That'd be so.. [afbeelding] (http://i11.tinypic.com/8er53s8.gif)

nicoX
2007-12-22, 09:47
Oh man, I was waiting for this. All this changes in 0.7. 0.7 will be remembered forever. Hooha.