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corp25
2007-07-22, 06:03
have you guys ever been in a squad that squad members that don't cooperate.. or when your a squad leader u order your squad members to move to that location they just simply just run anywhere

how you guys feel??

Cerberus
2007-07-22, 06:31
I feel the need to take action and kick them from the squad.

Expendable Grunt
2007-07-22, 06:46
Yes, we all have, and nothing will stop that. What's worse is when you've got a co-operative squad with a useless squad leader, who takes kits like Marksman, sniper, and grenadier.

Metis-M
2007-07-22, 07:02
For me, I dont say its perfect, but for me is a good squadleader who make ralley point, maybe he waits for enough members to come to him and after that let me alone to play. Thats for public, clansquad can be other, dont talk about that.



My another expirience from BETA on IGI(hello:-) ), I join the server then one squad a slot was free, squadleader was not from igi only the server.

That squadleader leads the squad like this: "xy i want staying u here, xx i want u be here, xs i want u.......,". He builds something like line formations in napoleonic wars. All that because of roboter style leadership very slow. Also he said go to this or to that without any reason between 2 flags(not for ralley point), so our squad couldnt take action at any of that flags.
Seeing that I think/thought that I have my own brain no need people saying me where I should stay or how to do something im not a roboter and maybe not worser player than he, squadleadership base not on skill, so everyone (also bad player) can be squadleader.

At the end our enemies the igis won that round.

But after playing as roboter for some time I go away playing on my own, was for sure not bad on scorerlist and with my k/d(not as sniper or marksman).

Outlawz7
2007-07-22, 14:18
Yes, we all have, and nothing will stop that. What's worse is when you've got a co-operative squad with a useless squad leader, who takes kits like Marksman, sniper, and grenadier.

Yah, I was in a such squad, other guys asked me to make my own, since our SL was useless...

youm0nt
2007-07-22, 14:39
Well, if the squad leader doesn't have a microphone to talk to his squad members and move to a specified location, I probably wouldn't even follow the order. I mean, if you're going to be a squad leader, then you better have a microphone or else your squad members won't listen to you.

daranz
2007-07-22, 16:39
If your squadleader is a retard who grabs a sniper rifle and goes off by himself, then leave the squad, bonus points for bitching out loud beforehand.

If your squadmembers aren't cooperating, and you are the SL, kick them. I had situations where I kicked my entire squad, because they were all retards. If they insist on coming back, and still going off to snipe on the other side of the map, kick them and lock the squad.

Also, if you don't feel like being a "roboter" and want to go off on your own and pad your KDR, then by all means, leave the damn squad.

El_Vikingo
2007-07-22, 16:48
Good Words to use: Perpendicular and Parallel.

Metis-M
2007-07-22, 16:56
........
If your squadmembers aren't cooperating, and you are the SL, kick them. I had situations where I kicked my entire squad, because they were all retards.

........


Because of that u lost ur ralley point? Or didnt u make one? if so--->


If they insist on coming back, and still going off to snipe on the other side of the map, kick them and lock the squad.


who cares;)



First thing u as SL have to do is RP and this the hole round.

daranz
2007-07-22, 17:10
Because of that u lost ur ralley point? Or didnt u make one? if so--->



who cares;)



First thing u as SL have to do is RP and this the hole round.
I didn't have one, and I obviously didn't need one to have 4 retards spawning on it. And no, I'm not your personal RP deployment specialist, there to provide an RP for you so you have a place to grab a sniper rifle from, and respawn if you die while lonewolfing out somewhere. If you think that, then get the hell out of my squad and don't come back - that's why locking the squad might be necessary. Most of the time the person will then find another squad with an SL that doesn't care, and you can unlock the squad and hopefully get somebody useful in the spot.

ArmedDrunk&Angry
2007-07-22, 17:25
.
Seeing that I think/thought that I have my own brain no need people saying me where I should stay or how to do something im not a roboter and maybe not worser player than he, squadleadership base not on skill, so everyone (also bad player) can be squadleader.

But after playing as roboter for some time I go away playing on my own, was for sure not bad on scorerlist and with my k/d(not as sniper or marksman).

What is see here is someone who doesn't follow orders which leads to losing the game because " I have my own brain " and won't listen to orders.
That is not to say the SL don't sometimes give stupid orders or recieve them from the CO, but if you wander off because you think you know better then unit cohesion falls apart and the other team wins.

They might have their own brains to but were willing to follow orders and thereby allow the CO to be able to depend on a squad going where it's told to go.

If everyone did what you describe, we have a vanilla game, which is what is still happening now as the post-release influx is still learning.

Chaosdragon001
2007-07-22, 17:28
I find that a cooperative squad can mean really awesome games.. Especially if everybody (or 5/6) people has a mic and are willing to follow orders. I've also had situations where my entire squad was kinda retarded (including SL) and I've had to give orders to them, only for them to just go out to their corner or whine to me because they couldn't get a sniper rifle or DM rifle.

Metis, you are the kind of people that destroy the meaning of this mod. We're here to promote teamwork, not the rambo run and gun stuff that Vbf2 has. What's the point of a squad if there's guys spread out everywhere? A rally point is meant to be the asset of a squad, not 6 individual people that have privileges to a spawn.

Metis-M
2007-07-22, 22:00
What is see here is someone who doesn't follow orders which leads to losing the game because " I have my own brain " and won't listen to orders.
That is not to say the SL don't sometimes give stupid orders or recieve them from the CO, but if you wander off because you think you know better then unit cohesion falls apart and the other team wins.

They might have their own brains to but were willing to follow orders and thereby allow the CO to be able to depend on a squad going where it's told to go.

If everyone did what you describe, we have a vanilla game, which is what is still happening now as the post-release influx is still learning.

No, i mean SL can only give order attack this flag it should be enough, mostly u see which flag should be attacked by A on the map, so without SL order it can go too, but most important is ralley point so the order go to this point. If u need more instructions, like u stay here and u stay here and so on, so we have not the same way. :cool:

........

Metis, you are the kind of people that destroy the meaning of this mod. We're here to promote teamwork, not the rambo run and gun stuff that Vbf2 has. What's the point of a squad if there's guys spread out everywhere? A rally point is meant to be the asset of a squad, not 6 individual people that have privileges to a spawn.

If u set up RP near flag should be attacked, ur squad will attack that flag, if u cant manage this, maybe u bad SL and not all ur 5 players are bad?

Dont know when I lead a squad, i never say more then the orders go this for RP and attack this flag, orders as usuall in all BF2+mods, sometimes i also say spread out (if squad fear to go out) or we need a medic, i never say more then this, good players know how to fight and i never teach them, i also never kick a player from squad no matter what style of playing he use(maybe only if he punish squadmembers for accident).

IAJTHOMAS
2007-07-22, 22:25
Then you aren't squad leading to a high standard. I agree that a squad doesn't need to be micromanaged, but telling some people to watch a certain direction, or to attack on two axis rather than one makes a squad a much more effective, cohesive unit.

Frankly, if all you are doing is telling them to attack the next flag, you're not squad leading at all, the AAS instructions that scroll on the server could tell them that. 6 lonewolves in the same squad doesn't really amount to a squad at all.

Nothing pisses me off more than having Rambo Bob taking a nature ramble when you're outnumbered and need every man available to defend a point, or having everyone watch one direction and getting taken out by a couple of guys.

Re: your igi story, do you want to know my guess as to why you lost? iGi would have had a squad leader doing very similar things to what you were describing. Difference is, his squad members would have been listening to him and working together.

El_Vikingo
2007-07-22, 22:56
I've seen people attack flags one by one. That's why squads have been made available.

Metis-M
2007-07-22, 22:57
Then you aren't squad leading to a high standard.

Maybe, but I also dont need to cry about bad squadmembers.

But please read first this:
The tactical concept followed by the German Army was the “Tactics of the Mission or Task” (“Auftragstaktik”) in contrast to the “Order-type Tactics” (“Befehlstaktik”) in use with other armies. The difference in conception and execution between these two tactics is fundamental: the first exalts the soldier’’s intelligence and capability, the second tends to damp them down, making the soldier a passive executor of the orders of others.

......................

http://www.larchivio.org/xoom/gerhardmuhm2.htm



I agree that a squad doesn't need to be micromanaged, but telling some people to watch a certain direction, or to attack on two axis rather than one makes a squad a much more effective, cohesive unit.
Frankly, if all you are doing is telling them to attack the next flag, you're not squad leading at all, the AAS instructions that scroll on the server could tell them that. 6 lonewolves in the same squad doesn't really amount to a squad at all.


I lead it as mobile spawnpoint and with ralley point, so u get 2 directions.
But must say on 0.5 it was easier.




Nothing pisses me off more than having Rambo Bob taking a nature ramble when you're outnumbered and need every man available to defend a point, or having everyone watch one direction and getting taken out by a couple of guys.

If u play on public........


Re: your igi story, do you want to know my guess as to why you lost? iGi would have had a squad leader doing very similar things to what you were describing. Difference is, his squad members would have been listening to him and working together.

We did the same 3/4 of that round, read carefully, because we did it, we couldnt defend any flag and run between them, then line up, then go back then line up, at the end were attacked by igis from the back and all killed and so on.

El_Vikingo
2007-07-22, 23:07
.:iGi:. POWAH!!!!

It's really about knowing your squad members.
Knowing what they would do and how.

"xy i want staying u here, xx i want u be here, xs i want u.......,". He builds something like line formations in napoleonic wars.

I may not know the "specific term", but I assume he was trying to spread the men to cover more territory. In Napoleonic wars you'd line up to shoot at the enemy.

Just admit that you can't take orders.

Metis-M
2007-07-22, 23:16
.:iGi:. POWAH!!!!

It's really about knowing your squad members.
Knowing what they would do and how.


I may not know the "specific term", but I assume he was trying to spread the men to cover more territory. In Napoleonic wars you'd line up to shoot at the enemy.

Just admit that you can't take orders.

No it was a line, not spread out, a line.
And it was only on igi server not with igi sl.


Just admit that you can't take orders.

I prefer Tactics of the Mission or Task.

Cerberus
2007-07-22, 23:27
Your argument regarding the tactics is quite flawed... those German soldiers you referred to had more than likely trained with each other before and probably used the same tactics... PR players, on the other hand, have not been molded into a cohesive unit; if you just let everyone do as they please, you're not going to get anything done...

Also, you sound like a pretty weak squadleader.

IAJTHOMAS
2007-07-22, 23:43
I prefer Tactics of the Mission or Task.

This doctrine applies to orders between an Officer and his superior, not between an NCO and his squadies. I'm damn sure a feldwebel they didnt go "take that hill," break out the saurkraut and watch his men run of as they pleased up the hill and hope for the best.

And the above poster is right, years of training meant they thought in the same way, they didn't need to be told where to go, because years of training meant they knew where to go.

daranz
2007-07-22, 23:46
Your squadleading style reminds me of the first mission of the russian campaign in the first Call of Duty, where you land in a boat in Stalingrad with a bunch of other conscripts, half of you are given a gun, and all of you are supposed to run uphill and attack.

This is a friggin team game. Good players might know how to fight, but very good players know how to cooperate with others, advance together, fulfill specific roles within a squad, and support each other in a firefight. This game isn't about tossing a bunch of specop whores at a flag and letting them do what they want.

Outlawz7
2007-07-22, 23:52
I didn't have one, and I obviously didn't need one to have 4 retards spawning on it. And no, I'm not your personal RP deployment specialist, there to provide an RP for you so you have a place to grab a sniper rifle from, and respawn if you die while lonewolfing out somewhere. If you think that, then get the hell out of my squad and don't come back - that's why locking the squad might be necessary. Most of the time the person will then find another squad with an SL that doesn't care, and you can unlock the squad and hopefully get somebody useful in the spot.

QFT

Recently, everyone thinks, that to win, your squad has to deploy RPs and Commander's bitches have to build bunkers and firebases

Recently cmdrs build firebases and bunkers at main for no reason and waste tickets...argh :duh:

IAJTHOMAS
2007-07-22, 23:57
Recently cmdrs build firebases and bunkers at main for no reason and waste tickets...argh :duh:

Don't they generate tickets after they've been in existance for a while, thus putting them at the main in a safe place can in some cases make sense? At least that was what one of the Devs said was being considered a while back.

Metis-M
2007-07-23, 00:03
Your argument regarding the tactics is quite flawed... those German soldiers you referred to had more than likely trained with each other before and probably used the same tactics...

I believe in experience and intellegence of players, most of them play maybe everyday.


PR players, on the other hand, have not been molded into a cohesive unit; if you just let everyone do as they please, you're not going to get anything done...

With RP and u as spawnpoint u can create the possibilities are needed.



Also, you sound like a pretty weak squadleader.

You sound like very good squadleader, plz manage to have a ralley point the hole round in right position, i mean not you personal all the squadleaders.




This doctrine applies to orders between an Officer and his superior, not between an NCO and his squadies. I'm damn sure a feldwebel they didnt go "take that hill," break out the saurkraut and watch his men run of as they pleased up the hill and hope for the best.

We dont have armies in BF2 a PR player is not a conscript private in a bootcamp. Ur squadmembers can be much more skilled as u.


And the above poster is right, years of training meant they thought in the same way, they didn't need to be told where to go, because years of training meant they knew where to go.

Maybe some people play longer BF2 as some others were in the army and do it each day or less.



Im tired of that discussion, lead ur squad how u want.

IAJTHOMAS
2007-07-23, 00:07
We dont have armies in BF2 a PR player is not a conscript private in a bootcamp. Ur squadmembers can be much more skilled as u.

Listen, it was you who decided to turn all Von Clauswitz on me, without actually having read the article yourself, or alternatively not fully comprehending it.

daranz
2007-07-23, 01:56
Don't they generate tickets after they've been in existance for a while, thus putting them at the main in a safe place can in some cases make sense? At least that was what one of the Devs said was being considered a while back.
After 20 minutes, you get back what you invested in a bunker of FB in the first place. I'm not even sure if you can get MORE than that.

corp25
2007-07-24, 15:13
after seeing all of ur suggestions and "complains"

was kind of satisfied that atleast 70% of players in PR are cooperating squad members or squad leaders

well..

i do have some problem with squad occured many times..

squads where squad member kept asking me for sniper kits when he don't even want to follow me to get a rally point up.. as you know to set up a rally point u need atleast 3 SM near the SL.. but whenever i did that i only had like 1 or 2 sometimes i m alone trying to get the squad together..

but some times its lucky when SM cooperates.. now thats where the real fun of play PR begins..

Outlawz7
2007-07-24, 16:09
Don't they generate tickets after they've been in existance for a while, thus putting them at the main in a safe place can in some cases make sense? At least that was what one of the Devs said was being considered a while back.

Yes, but losing some tickets can turn the tide of the battle and even if you regian the cost of Bunker/Firebase back after a while, doesnt matter, becuase you're losing...

ReaperMAC
2007-07-24, 16:35
Yes, but losing some tickets can turn the tide of the battle and even if you regian the cost of Bunker/Firebase back after a while, doesnt matter, becuase you're losing...
Exactly, unless you get to the point where the enemy is bleeding and *hopefully* your team isnt that far behind.