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View Full Version : Slightly off topic - Polish Military History - Lest we forget..


Darkpowder
2007-06-26, 15:50
To those that don't know.

As a Brit, i always remember the sacrifices of foreign military allies over history, a keen student of history i am.

The Polish have a fine history in WW2 for their work following their occupation. Clearly the invasion of Poland brought the UK into WW2.

But here is a few links to units of Poland from WW2 of note.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_contribution_to_World_War_II (nice pic on this link - for WW2 Polish forces).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_1st_Independent_Parachute_Brigade
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Air_Forces_in_France_and_Great_Britain

Personally i think the Polish people are great, and i won't forget their contribution to history...

I would be interested in hearing more about deployments since ww2, as i don't actively follow that period in Polish History.

ArmedDrunk&Angry
2007-06-26, 17:48
I live in the NY Metro area and we can't forget the Polish military contributions because so many things are named after Polish cavalrymen who came and fought the British during the revolution.
But thank you for the links I will watch them during lunch.

Maverick--113
2007-06-28, 15:02
I live in the NY Metro area and we can't forget the Polish military contributions because so many things are named after Polish cavalrymen who came and fought the British during the revolution.
But thank you for the links I will watch them during lunch.
Wow, I learned something. There were Polish people in the Revolution???

ArmedDrunk&Angry
2007-06-28, 17:32
In Jersey we have the Pulaski skyway.
Casimir Pulaski (1745-1779) was member of the Polish nobility. He was born in 1745 near the small Polish town of Warka. As a soldier he fought against the Russian tsarist empire in Poland taking part in an alliance against them named the Confederation of Bar (Konfederacja Barska). Pulaski was subsequently outlawed in the country after the first Partition of Poland in 1772.

In the same year he fled to Turkey and later to France. He offered his services to Benjamin Franklin in October 1776 and landed in Boston in July 1777. He later fought in the American War of Independence alongside George Washington. For his achievements at Brandywine Creek Pulaski was given command of a brigade of cavalry. In 1779 he organised the so called Pulaski's Legion and entered Charleston, which he the held until relieved by allied forces. He took part in the Siege of Savannah in 1779, where during a charge of cavalry he was wounded in the thigh. He died two days later on October 11th, 1779.
http://everything2.com/index.pl?node=Casimir%20Pulaski

In NY there is the Kosciuszko bridge.

Thaddeus Kosciusko was born in February 4, 1746 in Siechnowica, in the Eastern territories of the Kingdom of Poland. He attended the Cadet School in Warsaw and in 1770 left to Paris to continue his studies. There, he became acquainted with the progressive ideology of the French Enlightenment. Poland was undergoing the first partition of 1772 when Kosciuszko was in France.


In 1776 Kosciuszko left for America and took part in the fight for the freedom of the North American colonies. Young Kosciuszko joined Washington's army, and received a commission as officer of engineers. He served with distinction through the war, and was made a brigadier general, where Congress granted him $15,000 and 500 acres of land in Ohio. General Kosciuszko was the first of a galaxy of foreign officers to receive a commission from the Continental Congress to serve in General Washington's army.


He served under Nathaniel Greene in the southern campaign after Gates had been relieved of his command. He organized the successful blockade of Charleston. His development of the battlements there was the decisive factor of the victory at Saratoga. For two years afterward he worked on the fortifications at West Point. At war's end before he would return home, Congress made him an American citizen and promoted him to the rank of brigadier general.


In 1784 Kosciuszko returned to his homeland and as an outstanding strategist, he commanded his troops during numerous battles in the war with Russia. Kosciuszko helped organize the Polish Army, and led his country to an adoption of a new constitution, consequently into an armed uprising against the two big powers Prussia and Russia. On March 24th Kosciuszko took his oath in Cracow: "I swear to the whole Polish nation that I shall not use the power vested in me for private oppression but that I shall exercise this power only in the defense of the whole of the frontiers and to regain the independence of the Nation and to establish universal freedom". After several victorious battles in October, 1794, the Polish forces suffered a defeat at Maciejowice. The commander, heavily wounded in the field, was taken prisoner. Kosciuszko remained in Russia as a prisoner until 1796 and was released on the condition he would never return to Poland.

http://www.polskiinternet.com/english/info/thadeuskosciuszko.html

I'm sure there are others but those are the ones I know about.

iceman
2007-07-07, 07:59
Polish WW2 hero http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislaw_Skalski

diesel14lars
2007-07-10, 06:05
My grandfather fought for the Home Army (the British backed Polish resistance force). He fought in the Warsaw uprising before walking all the way through Czechoslovakia and Germany and enlisting in the British army.

Fearosius
2007-07-10, 06:44
Winged Polish Hussars Ftw!

Killer-Ape
2007-08-30, 09:14
Warsaw Uprising 1944
http://www.warsawuprising.com/

Quoted from the site

The Warsaw Uprising of 1944 — a heroic and tragic 63-day struggle to liberate World War 2 Warsaw from Nazi/German occupation. Undertaken by the Home Army (Armia Krajowa, AK), the Polish resistance group, at the time Allied troops were breaking through the Normandy defenses and the Red Army was standing at the line of the Vistula River.

Warsaw could have been one of the first European capitals liberated; however, various military and political miscalculations, as well as global politics — played among Joseph Stalin, Winston Churchill and Franklin D. Roosevelt (FDR) — turned the dice against it.

Sounds similar to the Battle of Thermopylae, heroic and outnumbered... we need another 300 movie..

H2HSnake
2007-09-01, 17:46
i can give some links

Post was dubled and i couldn't remove it, so all links are in my next post :)

H2HSnake
2007-09-01, 17:48
i can give some links

http://home.concepts.nl/~avalphen/info/campaign.htm

http://maczek.blog4ever.com/blog/photo-100395.html - site in french but with many great photos

http://www.memorial-montormel.org/?id=53 really nice site

http://www.polamjournal.com/Library/APHistory/D-Day/d-day.html

http://www.1e-poolse-pantserdivisie.nl/index2.html

(I know a son of one of the veterans from 1 Polish Armored Division)
Here's site about his father and 1 Polish Armored Division

http://freedominmessiah.com/jan_pirog.html

I am more than sure that if You'll write to him He'll give You all information he can give :)
Here i got quote from email he wrote to me
"Falaise ? I have been there and the Polish flag is at the very front !!! the French are not stupid and ANY Pole is treated like a king (the same thing is in Breda-Holland) and Gen Maczek's actual tank is on the hill overlooking this area, it is a Polish victory, NOT Canadian nor American.
These wonderfully brave men took 250,000 prisoners with 16,000 men !!!. (this email was an answer to mine, where i wrote to him about ignorant american show about Normandy. They've shown there Polish general Maczek talking with Montgomery, they showed polish soldiers with "POLAND" armpatch and they stated that they're canadians :)


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/Nullamere/WWII/Image2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/Nullamere/WWII/Image1.jpg

If someone wants to read a little about this there a nice book by Evan Macgilvray "Black Devils March..."
http://www.amazon.com/BLACK-DEVILS-MARCH-Armoured-1939-1945/dp/1874622426

!!!!!For Your freedom and ours!
http://www.sprawahonoru.com/lynneolsonstanleycloud.mp3 !!!!!

polish veterans in Driel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUv9BWiG0qs
polish veteran from Caen battle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MMbAPyCn_k

from Canadian (rightwing) television
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cc60CG6ATuk

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westerplatte
http://www.apacouncil.org/ww2/5df.html Poles in defence of France
Poles in Norway 1940 http://www.electronicmuseum.ca/Polan.../norway_1.html

Poles in North Africa http://www.kki.krakow.pl/piojar/bryg.../tobruk_e.html
(longest defending Tobruk!!! )

simple Info http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_...achute_Brigade

There's much more on the internet, and BTW poles have their 300 in history (actually it's from WW I period)

n 17.08 we had in Poland anniversary of a battle that resembles the famous Thermopylae battle of 300 Spartans against Muslim invaders.

Battle of Zadworze

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Zadw%C3%B3rze, the free encyclopedia

find other similar battles in History and post info here
It's always good to spread the info about old time heroes.

Well i've found another similar situation, this time from 1939 September Campaign
"Altogether, his forces were some 40 times stronger than the Polish defenders."
http://www.answers.com/topic/battle-of-wizna

Defense of Lwow and the Eastern Borderland:
Towards the end of WWI, when the identity of the Galician lands were still undecided fighting erupted in the city and in the surrounding areas. In the evening of 31 October 1918 a soldier from the Legions was killed, he was to be the first casualty of the fighting. In the early morning of 1 November a Ukrainians storming of the Sienkiewicz school, which was defended by a 85 man unit, began the fight for the city. The small Polish military units in Lwow were at the time still disorganized and practically without a decent supply of ammunition, but help was on it's way. The units concentrated around the city of Przemysl were ordered to go to Lwow's aid, but only a small portion of them arrived. On 21 November the units of Lwow and Przemysl fought the final battle for the city, the local youths were also heavily involved in the fighting, those sometimes children fought for the city with great courage and patriotism. The Polish units strength was small compared to the Ukrainians, but they fought with passion and on the 21 November the Ukrainian Headquarters issued an order to it's units to withdraw from the city. At 8am on the 22 November 1918 the whole town was in Polish hands and on the City Hall flew the White and Red Polish flag.
The one of the biggest necropolis in Europe is still in Lwow, it's polish necropolis, defenders of Lwow lay there
"The Current Ukrainian Government wishes to place a plaque with the wording "To the Unknown Fighters" on the monument, could it be that the Ukrainian Government is afraid to tell the world the truth, that Polish children, some as young as 10, fought off the best that they [the Ukrainians] could offer at that time, namely The Sicz Riflemen(Stszelcy Siczowi)"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lw%C3%B3w_(1920)

Lampshade111
2007-09-02, 01:09
Umm how are we Americans "ignorant" about Normandy? Like it or not without us the invasion would have gotten nowhere.

Wasteland
2007-09-02, 01:33
Warsaw Uprising 1944
http://www.warsawuprising.com/

Quoted from the site



Sounds similar to the Battle of Thermopylae, heroic and outnumbered... we need another 300 movie..

Check out the 1943 uprising some time:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising

And DEFINITELY watch the movie about it, "Uprising". That's an amazing story. About 65,000 Jews decided not to die quietly, and rose up against the Nazis. This isn't wasn't a "clean" insurgency. The Nazi response was eventually to level the Warsaw Ghetto with artillery and bombers, and to move into the area and poke gas hoses into the rubble to kill everyone that had taken to the under levels to hide.

Spaz
2007-09-02, 06:46
Check out the 1943 uprising some time:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising

And DEFINITELY watch the movie about it, "Uprising". That's an amazing story. About 65,000 Jews decided not to die quietly, and rose up against the Nazis. This isn't wasn't a "clean" insurgency. The Nazi response was eventually to level the Warsaw Ghetto with artillery and bombers, and to move into the area and poke gas hoses into the rubble to kill everyone that had taken to the under levels to hide.

And the russian army was waiting 1km outside Warsaw and did not move in to help the "insurgecy" They droped weapon and ammo from planes but with no parashoot so it diden't really help.

sroczka
2007-09-05, 19:18
And the russian army was waiting 1km outside Warsaw and did not move in to help the "insurgecy" They droped weapon and ammo from planes but with no parashoot so it diden't really help.
That happend one year later. During WWII in warsaw were two Uprisng's:
In ghetto in 1943, and in whole warsaw in 1944.

Spaz
2007-09-07, 22:56
That happend one year later. During WWII in warsaw were two Uprisng's:
In ghetto in 1943, and in whole warsaw in 1944.

Okey, sry all this different years make it hard to remember ;)

H2HSnake
2007-09-11, 14:49
Umm how are we Americans "ignorant" about Normandy? Like it or not without us the invasion would have gotten nowhere.

OMG can You READ properly??You ignored the whole contest of what I've said (another proof about American ignorance) and picked only "...Americans...ignorant..." word. I was talking about american history show about D-Day landings and later Normandy outbreak. I was talking about ignorance of people who prepared this show to public view. They've showed Polish General, Polish soldiers, even with "POLAND" armpatch, and they stated that they're Canadians... state of ignorance.Not to mention that with all talking about Falaise they didn't even mentioned word Poland or Polish once. Total ignorance.Thank God i know some really good American historians.
2 of them wrote magnificent book "A question of Honor" (Lynne Olson and Stanley Cloud) http://www.questionofhonor.com/
"A Question of Honor is the gripping story of Polish fighter pilots who helped save England during World War II. Written by the authors of the acclaimed 1996 book The Murrow Boys, which Garrison Keillor described as "a history [of the World War II era] so vivid and clear you get 50 years younger by reading it," A Question of Honor is similarly filled with adventure and heroism. In addition, it tells how the Poles, despite their crucial contributions to the Allied war effort, were finally betrayed by the "Big Three" -- Joseph Stalin, FDR and Winston Churchill."

Ragni<RangersPL>
2007-09-12, 23:19
It's really nice to see that someone is reading about Polish history instead of watching another show on TV :cool: Nice work :thumbsup:

Lampshade111
2007-09-15, 02:25
OMG can You READ properly??You ignored the whole contest of what I've said (another proof about American ignorance) and picked only "...Americans...ignorant..." word.[/b]

Your calling me ignorant? Well it may come as a shock to you but you Europeans can be just as ignorant as us Americans. Do you also believe that Falaise gap was entirely a Polish victory?

Wasteland
2007-09-15, 02:50
And the russian army was waiting 1km outside Warsaw and did not move in to help the "insurgecy" They droped weapon and ammo from planes but with no parashoot so it diden't really help.

To be fair, the Russians had told them they would not support a Warsaw uprising, and not to rise up but to wait for Russia to come through. There were many bitter arguments about this, and the insurgency decided to rise up just before Russia got there anyway, so that they could say *they* drove the Germans out, giving them a stronger negotiating position after the war.

Not that it makes it OK for the Russians to watch people being killed just so they could have the USSR include Poland.

Killer-Ape
2007-09-16, 00:36
To be fair,
There is nothing fair about communist Russia(Soviet) vs Poland during 1939-45.. So don't even try to justify Soviet actions against poles.

First they invade the east half of Poland 1939 (the Nazi-Soviet Non-Agression pact) WTF?
Then suddenly when the "shit hits the fan" they come as liberators? Now what was that old saying?“the enemy of my enemy is my friend.”

Not that it makes it OK for the Russians to watch people being killed just so they could have the USSR include Poland.
Ohh.. but the russians did so much more then just watch:
Katyn Forest massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre) "the NKVD executed almost half the Polish officer corps" 15,000 to 21,768 murdered.(all POW's from the war!!) And that's just the officers at Katyn, not to mention all who died at russian gulags.


the Russians had told them they would not support a Warsaw uprising, and not to rise up but to wait for Russia to come through. There were many bitter arguments about this, and the insurgency decided to rise up just before Russia got there anyway, so that they could say *they* drove the Germans out, giving them a stronger negotiating position after the war.
Would it even matter if Warsaw got miracously liberated by poles? It was still 1944, the war was far from over. It's not that hard to round up all survivors and shoot the "free thinkers". Hey it didn't stop them at Katyn. But why waste precious amunition when you can make the emeny do it for you.. And we don't even need to get our hands dirty.

Trying to negotiate with Stalin is just asking for a bullet in the neck.

My advice: If you ever visit Poland, don't repeat what you just wrote. You might end up with a broken nose or worse.

Wasteland
2007-09-16, 09:00
There is nothing fair about communist Russia(Soviet) vs Poland during 1939-45.. So don't even try to justify Soviet actions against poles.

First they invade the east half of Poland 1939 (the Nazi-Soviet Non-Agression pact) WTF?
Then suddenly when the "shit hits the fan" they come as liberators? Now what was that old saying?“the enemy of my enemy is my friend.”


Ohh.. but the russians did so much more then just watch:
Katyn Forest massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre) "the NKVD executed almost half the Polish officer corps" 15,000 to 21,768 murdered.(all POW's from the war!!) And that's just the officers at Katyn, not to mention all who died at russian gulags.



Would it even matter if Warsaw got miracously liberated by poles? It was still 1944, the war was far from over. It's not that hard to round up all survivors and shoot the "free thinkers". Hey it didn't stop them at Katyn. But why waste precious amunition when you can make the emeny do it for you.. And we don't even need to get our hands dirty.

Trying to negotiate with Stalin is just asking for a bullet in the neck.

My advice: If you ever visit Poland, don't repeat what you just wrote. You might end up with a broken nose or worse.

I'm talking about one God damn event. Not the f*cking history of Poland-Soviet relations as a whole. The fact is that at this point of the war all of the allies (including the Soviets) were starting to thing about what would happen *after* the peace. The Soviets were still thinking about the West-backed White Armies they'd had to fight in the 20's, and how to create a buffer between them and Western Europe. . Soviet strategists decided that it was crucial that they be the ones to take Warsaw. They told the Warsaw resistance represesentatives not to rise up, and that they would not be supported. The resistance decided to take their chances, and fought bravely to retake Warsaw for themselves and help Poland's eventual position at the negotiating tables.

I did not say that Soviet-Poland relations were fair. I said "to be fair" because it's not fair to leave out a pertinent part of the involved history. You may still be pissed because I called you out when you said that when my friend's wife and her friend were beaten up by a rapist, they "had it coming". But that doesn't mean you can twist my words or put words in my mouth.

DEVs/MODs, please don't close this thread for this recent turn. This post is not a flame, it's merely intended to correct an incorrect assessment.

Killer-Ape
2007-09-16, 13:06
"The urgency for this decision increased as it became clear that after any successful Polish-Soviet co-operation in the liberation of various towns (for example, in the Wilno Uprising), the Soviet NKVD units who followed behind would either shoot or arrest most Polish officers and those Polish soldiers who could not or would not join the Soviet controlled forces." - From Wikipedia

Nothing was fair about the "God damn event" The soviet-russians where just as bad as the Nazi-germans, no liberation, just one oppressor for another. Waiting for the red army to liberate warsaw would change nothing: submission or death.. sometimes just death.

They told the Warsaw resistance represesentatives not to rise up, and that they would not be supported.

My sources tell a different story. Got any links/facts to support your argument?

"Liberate the City: Most of the underground believed that a Polish London-based government-in-exile had to be established in Warsaw before the newly created Russian-sponsored Committee of National Liberation would take charge. Military developments on the Eastern and Western fronts appeared to have created a singular opportunity to wrest control of Warsaw from the collapsing Germans shortly before the entry of the victorious Red Army. At the same time, the Soviet-controlled radio Kosciuszko issued appeals to Warsaw inhabitants to raise up against Germans." - From WarsawUprising.com LINK (http://www.warsawuprising.com/faq.htm)

"As the Soviet forces approached Warsaw in June and July 1944, Soviet radio stations demanded a full national uprising in Warsaw to cut the communication lines of German units still on the right bank of the Vistula; just two days prior to the uprising, Soviet-controlled radio Kosciuszko had called for the Polish people to rise in arms." - From Wikipedia.. LINK
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_uprising)
Telling the rebels to fight sounds more logical. Give them false hope and let them fight the enemy for you. Then when all polish resistance dies out you only got one slightly weakened enemy to worry about instead of two. Ruthless but effective..

sroczka
2007-09-17, 19:21
68 Years ago began Soviet invasion of Poland.

More about it in wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland_%281939%29

Warmagi
2007-09-25, 16:26
Its good to see that some of you take interest in polish history. Cause all the time you can see it TV, not polish TV, that polish contribution to the WWII is misplaced or not apreciated. For example recently in Television Russia or something like that, Russian channel in english there was a document abaut Katyn, they were showing pictures of Katyn dead polish officers and saying that those are sovier ppl killed by polish soldiers. Or enigma code, it was polish who broke it bur now its said it were British. Monte Casino Mountain, it were polish troops that took the fortifications on this mountain in Italy, no one could do it. And although our politicians sucks, and polish political scene is just pittiful, we were very good and brave fighters, and I bet we still can be and we are.

Ragni<RangersPL>
2007-09-25, 16:47
And although our politicians sucks, and polish political scene is just pittiful, we were very good and brave fighters, and I bet we still can be and we are.

Totally agree with you... especially those things about politicians :razz:
:thumbsup:

H2HSnake
2007-10-04, 14:07
Do you also believe that Falaise gap was entirely a Polish victory?
Nope.Total Falaise gap success was tnx to cooperation of allie units, I am not denying that. The crucial part, the last one, was won by Poles themselves.They were the last part in closing the gap, Germans could've escape through this last point that was the Mont Ormel.Poles were there alone and cutoff, they fought there without any help and with ammo low.They were attacked from the all sides by those who tried to escape and those who tired to help those who were escaping.They did it so it's their Victory at last decisive point of Falaise Gap. If they failed Germans would escape. So in this last importand point, it is in fact Polish Victory.It is written on monument founded by french civilians.
I suggest all that are interested to read this: http://www.suttonpublishing.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10051&storeId=10051&productId=25813&langId=-1

ArmedDrunk&Angry
2007-10-04, 16:27
I remember reading that some Free French units didn't follow orders and clogged some roads and that let thousands of Germans escape.

Wyspa
2007-10-04, 16:30
I agree about that It was success because of cooperation of allies... But we just want you to remember that Poland was fighting too... We manage to fight Germans longer than French before we lost ( and we didn't have equipment like them...I think that if Polish Soldiers would have equipment equal to French we could even win...). But it wasn't the end... we still fought under French (before they fall) and Brits our Navy Forces manage to get to England... our Polish Squadron 303 taken down more German planes than other RAF Squadrons... and "Armia Krajowa" was biggest underground Army in WWII... Just remember we were fighting :]

Rageman_PL
2011-01-06, 23:32
Polish Termopiles:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Wiznahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Wizna
Battle of Zadwórze - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Zadw%C3%B3rze)

Dr_Wycior
2011-01-18, 20:26
Poland vs MEC, XVII century edition:

Battle of Vienna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vienna)

jozi02
2011-01-20, 17:30
Warsaw Uprising 1944
World War 2: Warsaw Uprising 1944 (http://www.warsawuprising.com/)

Quoted from the site



Sounds similar to the Battle of Thermopylae, heroic and outnumbered... we need another 300 movie..



Actually Platige Image Studio (authors of The Cathedral (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cathedral) and Fallen Art (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallen_Art)) is working on something like that:
Hardkor 44 ? Beyond the Iron Sky (http://blog.starwreck.com/2009/07/23/hardkor-44/)
Concept Art World ? Blog Archive ? Hardkor 44 Concept Art (http://conceptartworld.com/?p=2370)