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daranz
2007-05-29, 23:35
tl;dr version: INSURGENCY MODE = AWSUM

Today, I got to play on a server running Al Basrah in insurgency mode for a while now. After getting to play the mode extensively, I have to say that it is most definately awesome.

For those of you who don't know, Insurgency mode is a new game mode that will come with .6. During Insurgency games, the primary objective for the British is to find and eliminate all of the insurgent ammo caches on the map. There are several spots where the ammo caches can spawn, and at the beginning of the round the server randomly chooses ten of these spots, and spawns the objective ammo caches there. The Brits don't know where the ammo caches are, but insurgents, who are supposed to defend them, have them marked on their maps.

This makes for games that are quite different from what AAS/Conquest feels like. Instead of frontally assaulting insurgent positions, where they're well dug-in and ready for an extensive regular battle, you move through the city, searching sector after sector, moving from neighborhood to neighborhood and going house to house, checking for ammo dumps. Although there are two flags on the map that are cappable, capping them is not the priority. Insurgents can always spawn at the Mosque, and considering how vulnerable ammo dumps are to small arms fire, they're inclined to actually defend the individual caches, instead of getting into street battles with British infantry, supported my their IFVs. One guy can rush in and blow up an unguarded ammo dump, making defense that much more important.

I actually managed to get a good squad going on the Insurgency mode server today. If any of the guys who were in my squad are reading this, I'd like to thank you for the teamwork and cooperation. Either way, being the organized squad that we were, we systematically searched different parts of the city, looking for ammo dumps. At one point, we grabbed two Landrovers, and rode out into the Village, parked the cars, disembarked, and searched every house, making sure that there were no ammo dumps anywhere. Unfortunately, we didn't find any, so we got back in our cars, and moved on to a different part of the city. We didn't encounter any armed resistance at the Village, however, as we were searching it, we didn't know what we would find. There was no way to tell if we would find an ammo dump guarded by 20 angry insurgents with guns, or just a bunch of dust and cinderblocks. That is what makes the Insurgency mode as fun as it is. It resembles what Coallition troops face in Iraq: instead of full-on battles, they search for insurgents, trying to eliminate them and their bases of operation. You get skirmishes when they find something, and not regular all-out war all the time.

Throughout the round, xWOLFx (the dev) helped us as a civilian. As cheap as it might seem, it was actually somewhat cool - a civilian cooperated with the Brits instead of the insurgents. Of course, there were some troubles with other squads eliminating our informant, but other than that, he led my squad to a bunch of ammo caches. He would show us an ammo dump, and we would let him go the other way... well, except that one time when he led us into an ambush... you can't trust the damn civvies. The round basically went by with no heavy fighting. Yes, an insurgent or two would open up on us in certain parts of the city (namely, in the facility-mosque area), but other areas we searched were utterly devoid of life (which, of course, we didn't know until we searched them thoroughly). At one point, we encountered some heavier fighting - we soon figured out that we stumbled upon an ammo cache location, and insurgents were fiercly defending it. Once we had that area pinpointed, we brought the entire team on that area, and supported by a Warrior we managed to take out the ammo cache. That was another one of those cool/realistic things; a single patrol encountered insurgent positions, so reinforcements were called in to deal with them.

All of this makes me wonder what would be the best insurgent tactics for Insurgency mode. There are ten ammo dumps, and there certainly aren't enough people to post a squad at every one of the ammo dumps. It would seem like insurgents have to rely on their mobility, and form quick reaction forces that can engage british who are close to ammo dump locations. Fighting can erupt at any point in the map, and when it starts, it is guaranteed to escalate as both sides bring in more assets to deal with the enemy. Perhaps there is room in it for civilians - they can serve as scouts. Civilians can climb to all sorts of funny places using their grappling hooks, and once there, they can observe enemy movement, without the enemy being able to do much about it (if they can't climb up after the civilian to knife him, they can only kill him, which is undesirable). Indeed, that would make the civilian collaborators reflect actual civilian collaborators in real life, who can use cellphones/radios/pigeons to inconspiciously report on Coallition troop movements, while still looking like perfectly innocent civilians.

Anyway, this post is kinda huge, so here's a civilian standing on a highway sign:

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v513/daranz/PR/th_screen214.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v513/daranz/PR/screen214.jpg)

NYgurkha
2007-05-30, 00:02
love that game mode to. Slwoly going through the streets searching for the ammo dumps, while Civi's scurry around is quite unnerving.

Would be cool if we could make it so one side ahs more people than the other, ie. more Insegents than BG

/i got too into blowing up buildings, while searching the north west side of town :P

eggman
2007-05-30, 00:06
some tweaks coming to Insurgency. Gonna dumb it down (very slightly) and polish it up (quite a bit). Fundamentals won't really change .. it's quite excellent .. I love it too!

danthemanbuddy
2007-05-30, 00:24
I love how it is now

Keeps Brits on its toes, and it makes insurgency feel like an insurgency.

Civilians aren't too bad a nuisance either, it keeps people spread oout.

DarkTalon
2007-05-30, 03:11
I think it would be awesome if there was a way for the Brits and Insurgents to communicate, the civilian could either lead the brits to a cache or right into an ambush, that would be about as relistic as you can get.

3===SPECTER===3
2007-05-30, 03:25
Insurgency mode is awsome... and alot more people play it than the new extraction game mode. I hope to see alot more variations on insurgency in the future. :)

Raniak
2007-05-30, 04:17
"Oh, it's a very long post so here a civilian on a sign" :lol:

Anyway, I love the insurgency mode too, defending the VCP is awesome... and searching the building one by one is even more awesome ! I have not played it as insurgent yet but I'm sure it will be awesome too !

Lothrian
2007-05-30, 06:24
I love the fact ammo dumps change position ... makes for such a variety of play that no rounds will ever play the same.

[T]waylay00
2007-05-30, 06:31
That's nifty about the civ helping the Brits! Sounds awesome!

Red Halibut
2007-05-30, 08:14
THoughts on that "brit-friendly" civilian.

1) All tags off.
2) Allow "Collaborator" as a limited kit for the Brits (1, maybe 2 tops), same skin as the real civilians.
3) Collaborators can be "unmasked" by spotting them, no change to the skin but it will flag them as red on the minimap. This would also help to breed an atmosphere of paranoia among the insurgents... who can you really trust?

Outlawz7
2007-05-30, 10:03
Only trust the civi in your squad... ;)

Ecko
2007-05-30, 15:53
Yeah, Insurgency is a very good game mode. Had a squad earlier operating out of the merlin. Merlin would drop us off in an area, it would take an over head pattern checking roof tops whilst the rest of us checked buildings. It can get a bit frustrating though :P

Royalwolf
2007-05-30, 16:11
This gamestyle is awesome, would be nice IMO if the insurgents outnumbered the British though make it a super challange for the brits. When i played we just rode round in a 4 warrior convoy, which was unstoppable so insurgents should have more players to counter this, also considering we didnt have apaches during that round due to the lag bug. But when the brits get apaches aswell it would be quite easy for them.

Ecko
2007-05-30, 16:18
This gamestyle is awesome, would be nice IMO if the insurgents outnumbered the British though make it a super challange for the brits. When i played we just rode round in a 4 warrior convoy, which was unstoppable so insurgents should have more players to counter this, also considering we didnt have apaches during that round due to the lag bug. But when the brits get apaches aswell it would be quite easy for them.

I disagree. I had a round where we had 2 warriors, SL order me and the other warrior to move into the area behind mosque. And we had several molotovs thrown at us ( I counted 5) and 2 RPGs firing down on us. In highly urban areas warriors are easy to pick off. At the CP's and village though the warriors reign.
As long as the insurgents don't go out in the open (Which the shouldn't be really) they can obliterate the Brit forces.

dbzao
2007-05-30, 16:20
Al Basrah running Insurgency wont get Apaches, at least that's the plan for now, to focus the battle in the ground.

The insurgents have to go to the weapon caches to pickup weapons like RPGs, PKMs and SVDs. Also, knowing that the enemy will have to come by a street, lay down IEDs and be patient. The patience will be rewarded when you destroy an APC and a lot of infantry. ;)

Lothrian
2007-05-30, 19:46
dbzao']Al Basrah running Insurgency wont get Apaches, at least that's the plan for now, to focus the battle in the ground.

Good! Make sure it stays out. Its a wonderful tool, but a good gunner and pilot could take out at least 8 of the ammo dumps in 10 mins with the apache weaponry.

KP
2007-05-30, 21:05
Absolutely love the game mode. Had some good times defending the VCP and searching for ammo dumps with my Spec Ops mate. Two guys covering each other as we searched through the city, looking for ammo caches. It was realistic - very much so - and very, very cool.

Kruder
2007-05-30, 22:14
Yeah this insurgent mod is revolutionary,great job guys!
And grass that doesnt disappear with distance, destructable buildings etc.Map rocks...

And a suggestion:

If a civilian is tked by insurgents you go and revive him(no he doesnt actually revive)and you see where half of the ammo dumps on minimap for a while.Logic being: he was shot by his own people you take good care of him so he becomes quisling.

I think it is not worth the trouble but if this is easy to implement it might be a nice surprise for UK forces.

TayloR016
2007-05-30, 22:23
I love how it is now

Keeps Brits on its toes, and it makes insurgency feel like an insurgency.

Civilians aren't too bad a nuisance either, it keeps people spread oout.
Hence the game type 'insurgency' lol :P

Deadmonkiefart
2007-05-30, 23:17
I love this gamemode. :)

301_HysterX
2007-05-31, 07:33
Very nice post !!

Royalwolf
2007-05-31, 11:28
dbzao']Al Basrah running Insurgency wont get Apaches, at least that's the plan for now, to focus the battle in the ground.

The insurgents have to go to the weapon caches to pickup weapons like RPGs, PKMs and SVDs. Also, knowing that the enemy will have to come by a street, lay down IEDs and be patient. The patience will be rewarded when you destroy an APC and a lot of infantry. ;)

Sounds GREAT!, glad theres no apaches. Also on the IED side will there be a new model soon so the brits have to stay alert and observe to avoid it. As at the moment the C4 model is small enough to hide inside those non solid bits of rubbish on the streets, so even if your looking high and low you still wont spot it.

3===SPECTER===3
2007-06-01, 01:36
I gotta say, insurgency is the best game mode ever!!! (IMHO) I was playing a round of it today as british with the striketeam guys (as Matthew Baker). Now I know that you always get a great tactical game playing in that squad but I just couldn't help thinking that PR seemed so much more realistic with that gamemode. We got in actual firefights that lasted for a few minutes with us pinned down by insurgency fire. We went into the slums just north of the actual city and preformed building clearances. All of this took a very long time and the gameplay seemed to slow down alot more, just what I wanted. I just think that searching and destroying ammo cashes while under fire is alot more fun and realistic than capping imaginary flags.

[T]waylay00
2007-06-01, 02:04
Insurgency in v604 was MUCH better than in v605, considering that the Brits didn't have those attack markers telling them the area of the ammo caches.

Emnyron
2007-06-01, 23:57
Well, you have to give the goons some sort of guidance, and it makes sure that you get the pleasure of blasting some chap back to the queen.

eggman
2007-06-02, 00:26
We've come up with what we think is a really grat plan to strike a nice balance between the 0604 and the 0605 insurgency modes. Not 100% sure if we can pull it off.. some of this was inspired by community members feedback during OB.

db is working on it and it will be something like this:

There will be no markers beyond those you have revealed for the Brits.

capture 3 civvys = reveal 1 cache
kill 3 Special Forces = reveal 1 cache
kill 20 Insurgent combatants = reveal 1 cache
loot the kits of 10 Insurgent Combatants = reveal 1 cache
(loot kits means kill them, then pickup their kit .. aka search their corpse for intel)

When a weapon cache is revealed, the Insurgents get a special marker indicating the cache location has been compromised. This way we can direct some focused battles, but not dumb it down way too much as I did for 0605.

Desertfox
2007-06-02, 00:38
eggman']We've come up with what we think is a really grat plan to strike a nice balance between the 0604 and the 0605 insurgency modes. Not 100% sure if we can pull it off.. some of this was inspired by community members feedback during OB.

db is working on it and it will be something like this:

There will be no markers beyond those you have revealed for the Brits.

capture 3 civvys = reveal 1 cache
kill 3 Special Forces = reveal 1 cache
kill 20 Insurgent combatants = reveal 1 cache
loot the kits of 10 Insurgent Combatants = reveal 1 cache
(loot kits means kill them, then pickup their kit .. aka search their corpse for intel)

When a weapon cache is revealed, the Insurgents get a special marker indicating the cache location has been compromised. This way we can direct some focused battles, but not dumb it down way too much as I did for 0605.

I presume you do not have to keep the kits? I don't really agree with the capture 3 civ's and get the location of 1 ammo cache due to the fact that not every civilian is guilty of helping the insurgency. Right now when people see a civilian 99% of them will go and knife them for no reason other then they are a civ which im assuming isnt very realistic.

eddie
2007-06-02, 00:41
We had a rule in my checkpoint squad: If a soldier tries to knife an "unarmed" (bandage in hand) civvie, they get dropped.

Desertfox
2007-06-02, 00:44
We had a rule in my checkpoint squad: If a soldier tries to knife an "unarmed" (bandage in hand) civvie, they get dropped.

I go by if they throw a rock at you or your squad-mates there getting arrested.

eddie
2007-06-02, 00:49
Fvck arresting them, I drop them then. I know they say not to, but I don't care. I usually don't die.

dbzao
2007-06-02, 01:01
eggman']
capture 3 civvys = reveal 1 cache
kill 3 Special Forces = reveal 1 cache
kill 20 Insurgent combatants = reveal 1 cache
loot the kits of 10 Insurgent Combatants = reveal 1 cache
(loot kits means kill them, then pickup their kit .. aka search their corpse for intel)

I added two more rules.

- If you kill a civilian with weapons instead of arresting them, you will lose some intel.
- If you destroy an insurgent vehicle you get some intel. (not sure about this one)

The total intel needed to reveal an objective is 20:

capture civ intel = 7 (so 3*7=21>20)
kill civ intel = -3
kill spec ops intel = 7
kill normal insurgent intel = 1
loot insurgent kit intel = 2 (so 2*10=20)
destroy insurgent vehicle intel = 2

You don't have to keep the insurgent kit. Just pick it up and drop it it's enough.

eddie
2007-06-02, 01:10
dbzao']I added two more rules.

- If you kill a civilian with weapons instead of arresting them, you will lose some intel.
- If you destroy an insurgent vehicle you get some intel. (not sure about this one)

The total intel needed to reveal an objective is 20:

capture civ intel = 7 (so 3*7=21>20)
kill civ intel = -3
kill spec ops intel = 7
kill normal insurgent intel = 1
loot insurgent kit intel = 2 (so 2*10=20)
destroy insurgent vehicle intel = 2

You don't have to keep the insurgent kit. Just pick it up and drop it it's enough.

Seems a little...... easy.

dbzao
2007-06-02, 01:11
Yep, specially with all those empty vehicles lying around.

Desertfox
2007-06-02, 01:13
Fvck arresting them, I drop them then. I know they say not to, but I don't care. I usually don't die.

Which is exactly why I get frustrated and leave the server.

PS: I still dont think you should encourage people to just knife random civ's but thats my opinion.

El_Vikingo
2007-06-02, 01:36
Yeah, but when they are all over you like girls in a party, the civies eventually become annoying.

eggman
2007-06-02, 02:06
Nice work db :)

Am loving this mode!! Gonna be outstanding with those changes.

Not too crazy about the vehicle stuff, but an easy tweak if we need to.

ayjazz
2007-06-02, 06:23
I had a question about this new mode. There is a system of checkpoints in the games I've seen. The server usually constantly posts messages about it. What is the point of it? I played as a civ and went down to the check point, only to get knifed. It is pretty much just to trick people into coming down so they can arrest them or is there more to it?

Desertfox
2007-06-02, 08:32
I had a question about this new mode. There is a system of checkpoints in the games I've seen. The server usually constantly posts messages about it. What is the point of it? I played as a civ and went down to the check point, only to get knifed. It is pretty much just to trick people into coming down so they can arrest them or is there more to it?

Its not a trick, its just that most people dont roleplay it. This is what I was talking about with rewarding people for killing civilians. Its going to just about kill checkpoint roleplay =(

Thunder
2007-06-02, 08:46
i'm surprised on how popular this game mode is, i'm gonna try and keep this server up and running along as possible as pure insurgency mode server.

BrazilKing
2007-06-02, 18:35
Which is exactly why I get frustrated and leave the server.

PS: I still dont think you should encourage people to just knife random civ's but thats my opinion.

Why not add a delay to the knifing of civ's ? This will disencourage meaningless knifing of civ's I think..

Like this: when you want to arrest a civilian, you can't just press your fire button but you have to hold it for 5 seconds, when the civilian is not moving.

Spaz
2007-06-02, 19:17
I love the mode, but the rounds are to short, I don't like that you can see where all the crates are...

Ecko
2007-06-02, 19:17
Vehicles is a bad idea, In real life any papers, documents ect would be destroyed in the fire. Where as on soldiers they would remain. (Unless taking a lLAW to the face :P )

El_Vikingo
2007-06-02, 20:05
I love the mode, but the rounds are to short, I don't like that you can see where all the crates are...

you don't see where all the crates are, they are just near the arrows, and they should be spread out a little more.

Outlawz7
2007-06-02, 20:40
I love the mode, but the rounds are to short, I don't like that you can see where all the crates are...

Agree. In .604 build, GB had to search the whole city to find them, rounds took some time and Insurgents could defend the caches. Made the civilian informants usefull..now a round ends in 15 minutes or less, since the GB just raids the city, quickly bunnyhopps...*cough* searches the area, destroys the ammo cache, while Insurgents cant do anything about it, since they got a whole city to defend...

Thunder
2007-06-02, 21:01
i think this discussion would be far better in the beta forums rather than here.

eggman
2007-06-02, 23:54
it's also moot because we've already propped up some changes to the 24/7 Insurgency server to address the issues.

Desertfox
2007-06-03, 05:28
I have an idea! :o

I know there is a soldier object in the editor that you can place down, I know nothing else beside that but would it be possible to put his arms down at this side (Right now he looks like hes trying to fly :P) give him a like 'buisness suit' and set him as an informant objective? So the insurgents have to protect him from the british who have to arrest him via knifing. Of course leveling the building would kill him which would result in british losing tickets just like killing civilians :P

If you knife him he gives you 10 'intel' points. Put maybe 30 on the map and have 3 be selected like they do with the ammo dumps. Then remove the arrest a civilian and get intel points!

I think if it can be pulled off would be a cool feature =P

ArmedDrunk&Angry
2007-06-03, 06:21
Just finished a game that took over 1 hour.
might be the Brits weren't trying hard but.....

Sealights
2007-06-03, 21:09
I think all the insurgent side should start as civilian by default, and they should move to cache points to get insurgent kits. would look cool if there was 3 civilan classes with different assets to bring some visual variety like medic, grappling hook, maybe a spoter with binocs.

BrazilKing
2007-06-07, 06:15
I think all the insurgent side should start as civilian by default, and they should move to cache points to get insurgent kits. would look cool if there was 3 civilan classes with different assets to bring some visual variety like medic, grappling hook, maybe a spoter with binocs.

yeah that's a nice idea :D
(without british troops starting to knife everybody in the very beginning of the round lol..)

TY2D2
2007-06-07, 20:02
I'm confused,

Are civilians a class that both sides can choose and no one knows if they are on your team or not?

Or is it some 3rd team that you guys figured out that is chosen to be on one team or the other?

Someone please explain :)

Sgt_Hassan
2007-06-07, 20:21
Civilians are on the Insurgent team and can engage British troops by throwing rocks at them or shooting at the from a technical. However, If civilians are shooting at you with a weapon the british are free to engage them. Otherwise the only good way to kill a civi is to knife him.

youm0nt
2007-06-07, 20:28
Civilians are on the Insurgent team and can engage British troops by throwing rocks at them or shooting at the from a technical. However, If civilians are shooting at you with a weapon the british are free to engage them. Otherwise the only good way to kill a civi is to knife him.
Civilians cannot use any machine gun on any vehicle because they will instantly die. Civilians cannot pick up friendly or enemy kits because they will instantly die too. These were both intentional in the mod.

TY2D2
2007-06-08, 01:07
So they are there for people on the insurgent team to betray their team and give away positions of ammo dumps? And do they get a gun? or just rocks? Are there any special abilities for the Civilians?

daranz
2007-06-08, 01:11
So they are there for people on the insurgent team to betray their team and give away positions of ammo dumps? And do they get a gun? or just rocks? Are there any special abilities for the Civilians?
They get the wrench, a whole bunch of bandages and the grappling hook. They're like an engineer and a medic all rolled up in one, plus they can get insurgents on rooftops that are otherwise unreachable (since nobody else gets the rope).

youm0nt
2007-06-08, 02:27
So they are there for people on the insurgent team to betray their team and give away positions of ammo dumps? And do they get a gun? or just rocks? Are there any special abilities for the Civilians?
Well, in a sense, you can "betray" and give away enemy positions/ammo dumps to the enemy if you roleplay in a server... The "proper use" for the civilians spotting out enemy targets for the insurgents and help them in any way they can.