PDA

View Full Version : Update PR: ARMA 3 Development Update


epoch
2015-09-26, 10:49
http://media.realitymod.com/headers/prarma2_update.png

Hi everyone

Back in 2011 we had an idea that became PR:ARMA 2. We gathered together a great team of developers and eventually released a few iterations of a mod that we do believe was really good fun.

However, from the technical point of view PR:ARMA 2 was a bit of a mess - two separate systems from the era of ARMA 1 held together by duct tape. The original idea was to have 100 players on a server. On the day of the launch we did get 100 players on the server, the only problem was that the server reported 0 "FPS", or simulation cycles per second if you will. Now, the networking in ARMA is infamous on its own but the scripts did not do it any favour. The amount of traffic being broadcast from the various scripts was staggering, with the zone capture system being probably the worst offender - every time somebody was capturing a zone the server and all the connected clients would be updated with the capture status of all the zones in the mission. Approximately every 0.1 seconds.

Another major issue was that as the mission went on timed events became delayed. The more people on the server the worse the delay. I remember once playing a mission where a helicopter which was supposed to respawn every 20 minutes had respawned nearly an hour later.

With all of this in mind and with ARMA 3 on the horizon Deadfast and I made the decision to start PR:ARMA 3 from scratch. We weren't naive to think that we could create something that would completely replace PR:ARMA 2 feature-wise. We wanted to start small and create a stable foundation to build upon: infantry-only missions, advance and secure game mode, squad system, kits, rally points. This would then be incrementally built upon.

And we got 99% of it done! The problem is that the past year we've been working on the last 1%. This is not an unknown phenomenon in software development. By the time you get this far it's nothing but a grind.

The ARMA side of PR never really had that many people, and this goes double for people with SQF skills (ARMA's proprietary scripting language). I think the most we ever had at once were 4. This is because there are very few people with the necessary skills to develop for ARMA.

As we slowly reached completion the work started becoming less and less fun. Instead of implementing features we had to focus on bugfixing in order to bring it to a releasable state. Unfortunately as anyone in software development can tell you bugfixing is very time-consuming, especially in such a complex environment as a multiplayer game.

Some time ago we announced (https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f586-pr-arma3-general-discussion/121376-pr-arma3-development-update.html#post2047243) that, due to "real life" challenges we planned to suspend development of PR:ARMA for the time being.

Since we don't want all of our work to go to waste we have decided to publicly release the source code under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 4.0 International Public License (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/4.0/), thus allowing it to live on. You can find it here on Github (https://github.com/realitymod/pra3).

If you have any questions regarding the code we will stick around the PR:ARMA 3 (https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f586-pr-arma3-general-discussion) section to hopefully be able to answer them.

Credits need to go to all of the past and present developers and volunteers who have contributed to getting Project Reality: ARMA 3 as far as it did:


epoch - for his leadership, encouragement and imaginative use of dev hacks
Deadfast - for being an SQF wizard, and somehow managing to install Redmine, twice!
James2464 - for contributing missions, ideas, code and that photo
wormeaten - for contributing missions and ideas
Cp - for his tireless testing and comic relief
BearBison and the RIP team for their enthusiasm and support during testing from the very beginning of PR: ARMA.
shay_gman - for contributing code
caterpillar - for contributing the Boots on Kavala mission
igno2k - for contributing the Forest Chop Down mission
IcyFury - for contributing the Morningstar and Sidewinder missions
mayr - for contributing the Payroll mission
Seraph - for contributing the Wrath of Zaros mission
Steeps - for contributing the Pyrgos Capital mission


In addition we would like to thank those involved with the earlier PR:ARMA 2 project:


UK_Force
Dr.Eyeball
DeanosBeano
Minimalaco
Robster

and everyone else who contributed to the mod

Finally we would also like to thank the community who have supported us throughout the project.

Dr_Death
2015-09-26, 15:22
Its a shame this project couldn't be completed

Senshi
2015-09-26, 16:27
I certainly understand your reasoning. Not only is it true for any software project (the last 10% require 90% of the work), but ArmA in particular is incredibly well at surprising you with a lot of horrible interrelated bugs and issues. That, combined with a so-so documentation and continuous, surprising heavy changes to the engine by Bohemia makes it extremely frustrating, as you have to revisit your code every time...

Kudos for trying though, would have been awesome!
Special kudos for deciding to publish the source under a very open license. Maybe someone else will pick up the torch, and be able to give us the non-crazy-redneck-milsim PR:ArmA3 we all want :) .

Antol
2015-09-26, 17:06
PR:ArmA 2 gave me some good memories and this announcement is very sad but i understand motivation behind it. I think that you guys did a good decision. Better now than later with such a move.
And all your work is not wasted which is good.

Thank you devs for these exciting rounds over 0.1 and 0.15 with PR:ArmA 2 and overall work in such a hard place like the Real Virtuality 3/4 engines.

Fabio Chavez
2015-09-26, 21:04
You should have released this at least in a playable state before you abandon it and you should have been passing the torch long before in the first place. First cling to the brand and then drop it like this, unworthy of pr, thx work the work anyway (coding and mapping).

Cant you at least offer some media like ui screenshots or a little video so people get a better idea of what they are dealing with? What cap/gameplay mechanics are in place, aas?

Scubbo
2015-09-27, 02:39
good call, gotta keep the project fun or what's the point :)

Roque_THE_GAMER
2015-09-27, 04:56
to be honest i wasn't expecting anything else from arma 3 PR even if it was launched were the tacBF did almost everything we need, but i also stopped played arma 3 in general because of hes net code and how laze the dev of arma 3 they are to do something, that make me not buy the next arma game until they actually make a netcode that works.

Dwarden
2015-09-27, 07:58
to be honest i wasn't expecting anything else from arma 3 PR even if it was launched were the tacBF did almost everything we need, but i also stopped played arma 3 in general because of hes net code and how laze the dev of arma 3 they are to do something, that make me not buy the next arma game until they actually make a netcode that works.

I'm amazed by your words
as one of the 'laze dev of arma 3' who runs 100-150 player Arma 3 test servers
as one who constantly works on improving multiplayer, servers and creative community life
also considering the stuff done on per request for PR: Arma in A2: OA times ...

your words shows you have no idea about us listening and cooperating with creative community

Cossack
2015-09-27, 08:26
to be honest i wasn't expecting anything else from arma 3 PR even if it was launched were the tacBF did almost everything we need, but i also stopped played arma 3 in general because of hes net code and how laze the dev of arma 3 they are to do something, that make me not buy the next arma game until they actually make a netcode that works.

I had my part of lag fest. These guys actually tried to do something about it, not just create something with ducktape and here. :roll:

Fabio Chavez
2015-09-27, 08:30
The one and only thing i was anticipating -however naively- was the synergy that would develop between a nice lean and optimized pvp mission by deadfast and dwardens performance testservers.
Too bad the code was dropped before at least make it instant playable...
Now its like "heres unfinished code that was so ugly to finish that we dont want it anymore even after 2 years of development..." Who would want to pick that up in ur opinion?

epoch
2015-09-27, 10:33
Now its like "heres unfinished code that was so ugly to finish that we dont want it anymore even after 2 years of development..."

Have you even bothered to download the code? Probably not.

In fact, out of the dozens of bugs that were fixed, there are only 2 left that we identified but were unable to resolve (due to the reasons we previously stated, and certainly not because we didn't want to).

For reference, the bugs are:


Spawning on rally point thats inside building puts you outside.
Marker color not updated when player joins/leaves squad

Grunwalski
2015-09-27, 13:53
Hey Guys, I love to play BF2 PR! And one month ago I decided to make a MP arma 3 Misson like PR. I work very hard with not that much coding skill. But it works great! I have everything know complete. You have a squad, sql can place RPs Build stuff from crates that where droped from Truckes or Helicopters. You can build a FOB. Caputure Flags. There is a Commander. Everything! neary 100 hours of work. next month I will test it with more people and update Stuff.
The only problem could be the server / script performance, because I cant test that on my own.
I hope you dont laugh on me or something, because you dont belive me or something.
If you have a arma 3 server we could try it out!

Edit: Some Pictures showing Crates/RPs/Commander:
http://imgur.com/a/9yntO

Michael Z Freeman
2015-09-27, 14:41
Thanks for releasing the code. Surprised you could not find more SQF coders as the ArmA community is usually pretty enthusiastic about these kind of things, especially with a mod with the history of PR. Could have just been the timing I guess. A3 is a beast compared to BF2 and it can be frustrating from a game play perspective as well as with development (I speak from a place of just having dabbled a little in development for A3, but I got the feel of it). But the rewards can be huge in terms of scale and depth of game play in A3.

ytman
2015-09-27, 20:03
Heavy news guys. Thanks for releasing your work for other to pick up!

Just want to tell you that ArmA:PR2 was a beautiful experience when it was working right. That game had so much to it and it just felt right. I was a beta sign-up and was so enthralled with it that I had left BF2:ArmA during its life.

Thanks for all the work - and you guys undoubtedly gave us many man hours of fun 'no-where-else' experiences.

Fabio Chavez
2015-09-28, 09:26
Do you maybe still have pra2 custom vehicle models flying around that you might like to donate to CUP?

doop-de-doo
2015-09-28, 14:14
Worth.

While the Squad team was looking for a more solid solution to the game engine issues, you guys did the next best thing, Mod.

Roque_THE_GAMER
2015-09-28, 20:15
I'm amazed by your words
as one of the 'laze dev of arma 3' who runs 100-150 player Arma 3 test servers
as one who constantly works on improving multiplayer, servers and creative community life
also considering the stuff done on per request for PR: Arma in A2: OA times ...

your words shows you have no idea about us listening and cooperating with creative community

Excellent! i will back to play now, finally I'm not gonna to clip through the floor houses and brake my leg and my shoots will actuality do damage when i hit it right? after 2 years of development my 100R$ will wort a full release game. :roll:

Fabio Chavez
2015-09-28, 21:09
Excellent! i will back to play now, finally I'm not gonna to clip through the floor houses and brake my leg and my shoots will actuality do damage when i hit it right? after 2 years of development my 100R$ will wort a full release game. :roll:

sounds like you are
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/12/10/article-1337561-0C62CAEF000005DC-535_634x404.jpg

:)

Roque_THE_GAMER
2015-09-28, 22:35
sounds like you are
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/12/10/article-1337561-0C62CAEF000005DC-535_634x404.jpg

:)

still about Arma.

PaintScratcher
2015-09-28, 22:46
Through my small contribution I was able to see the huge amount of effort and time that a few dedicated people put into PR:A2/3. Although it perhaps didn't turn out as had been first hoped I do think that you brought a unique blend of gameplay that many enjoyed immensely. I certainly had a blast with PR:A2 and hold the dev team in the highest regard. A huge thanks to everyone involved, especially to the core team, that have pulled through and released this to the community.

Cheers.

cribbaaa
2015-09-30, 11:21
I can't say I'm surprised since there has been little to no updates about the project since its announcement. Well at least ArmA players got a nice map out of it, and there seem to be several alternatives out there if one is looking for PR gameplay in that engine as well.

I guess this means I can safely say "Project Reality" when I talk about the BF2 mod in the future, since that's the only version that exists.

Raklodder
2015-09-30, 12:31
ArmA's netcode have always been a pain in the arse.

eversmen_br
2015-10-02, 17:15
"they can fix the code if you got the money ...but not on a vet benefits not on this economy! "

hehe ... well it was worth a try, i bid you gentlemen good luck on your next endeavors : )

thanks.

Vista
2015-10-02, 18:43
Thank you for the update based epoch

Bluedrake42
2015-10-05, 23:38
OH NO! WHO COULD HAVE SEEN THIS COMING?? WHO!?

I'd offer to hire someone to fix this up and release it but the last time I offered to do that I was threatened with being banned from the community.

So gl:hf.

K4on
2015-10-06, 12:30
James2464 - for contributing missions, ideas, code and that photo
Didn't James also make the map Kunduz especially ment for PR:A3 while the project was still 'active'?
I like to see him credited for that too in the OP, even if the map isn't in the PR:A3 github package at the end:



http://www.armaholic.com/datas/thumbs/kunduz-afghanistan-v051-1_4.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Te3kuzb.jpg


https://forums.bistudio.com/topic/177230-kunduz-afghanistan-10km-v1x/

Kunduz, Afghanistan - Terrain - Armaholic (http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=27882)

Fabio Chavez
2015-10-08, 07:24
That map is really awesome, id love to see the mission added to it by default in future updates :)

Dougalachi
2015-10-08, 23:18
OH NO! WHO COULD HAVE SEEN THIS COMING?? WHO!?

I'd offer to hire someone to fix this up and release it but the last time I offered to do that I was threatened with being banned from the community.

So gl:hf.

Normally I don't feed the trolls...

Now is your chance to continue the development of the mod (or have someone else do it for you) assuming you follow the terms of the agreement.

Or are you just here to gloat about other people quitting the project that you were turned down from helping? Somehow I think we all believe this is the real reason.

Put your money where your mouth is, everyone would think better of you for it.

(Sorry for the off-topic)

Fabio Chavez
2015-10-09, 16:24
I think we all believe this is the real reason.
(Sorry for the off-topic)

no, we all believe this is NOT the real reason!

Dougalachi
2015-10-09, 23:13
no, we all believe this is NOT the real reason!

Maybe we should both stop generalizing about what everyone else thinks and stop derailing the thread.

The important thing is that we want the development to continue on but have no one willing/able to do it. Comments about how things were done in the past by those in charge don't fix the problem to be faced and only serve to fuel "whose fault is it" arguments.

A Kickstarter campaign to get funds to attract a qualified dev has already been thought of and dismissed?

Bluedrake42
2015-10-10, 03:01
Normally I don't feed the trolls...

Now is your chance to continue the development of the mod (or have someone else do it for you) assuming you follow the terms of the agreement.

Or are you just here to gloat about other people quitting the project that you were turned down from helping? Somehow I think we all believe this is the real reason.

Put your money where your mouth is, everyone would think better of you for it.

(Sorry for the off-topic)

lol I'm not touching this with a 10 foot pole.

https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f586-pr-arma3-general-discussion/129196-arma3-pr-2.html#post2042388

epoch;2042388']

Originally Posted by Bluedrake42 View Post
As far as I can tell, the entire Project Reality "franchise" is falling apart

No it isn't.

As usual Bluedrake, you're full of shit, and have no idea what you're talking about. Go peddle your propaganda somewhere else. I'll give you time to read this, then I'll be perm banning you because (a) I feel like it, and (b) you clearly don't wanna be round here.

The attitude of the Project Reality team has become considerably more poisonous over the years. The lack of transparency, combined with their refusal to accept either help or criticism is leading to the end of the Project Reality franchise as a whole.

Project Reality 2 has now ceased development, as has Project Reality ArmA... as predicted. We can only hope Project Reality: World War 2 and the Falklands, along with the original mod continue development as long as they can.

The only gloating that should be going around is this. How long are we going to let projects die, and let our worst predictions actually come true before someone admits that something is fundamentally wrong and that it needs to change.

If Project Reality is going to survive, we need to take things back to the drawing board, we need to be more open minded, and we need to start having more open discussions on how to most efficiently and effectively manage the development of projects.

I'm not going to help people who are going to fight me over it. I'm not here to "win people in this community over" lol. I have my own community and we like our own neck of the woods. So if you're gonna say "people would like me better for it" you all can ride this titanic all the way to hell as far as I'm concerned lol. I don't like you any more than you like me.

However, I do believe in the Project Reality brand. At the end of the day I owe it a great deal to my life. And I feel obligated to keep coming back here and trying to keep it alive, and maybe one day we'll all actually get along enough to sit down and be like "okay this shit is falling apart, how can we work together to keep it together."

Otherwise I'm just gonna keep running my server, come in here every so often and be like "yeah that's not good, something is wrong here" have a bunch of people say I'm a lying piece of shit, have no one do anything about it, then have what I say actually come true and everyone be upset about it.

GG.

VOWFallen
2015-10-10, 04:15
Lol, permaban cause I feel like it. Never been a better reason to ban someone. I can't believe you're even an admin. In my opinion, nothing Bluedrake even said is grounds to ban him, the first thing you called out was clearly a joke, the second I don't know the truth, so idk who to believe, and the third he even wrote "As far as I can tell" so that's his opinion and not worthy of a ban.
I hope you would never ban him otherwise that would just prove Bluedrake's point.

Btw, I'm not a Bluedrake fan, I personally don't even like how he handles his squads and try to avoid them. I prefer SideStrafe myself. I just feel if you followed through with your threat it would be such an abuse of power.

camo
2015-10-10, 04:30
oh lordy this thread has gone down hill.

Bluedrake42
2015-10-10, 05:19
and I'm just over here like

http://www.writerscafe.org/uploads/stories/56b2892958b5f4934f0a19f8dbfca2a1.jpg

Rhino
2015-10-10, 05:45
The attitude of the Project Reality team has become considerably more poisonous over the years. The lack of transparency, combined with their refusal to accept either help or criticism is leading to the end of the Project Reality franchise as a whole.

In what areas exactly have (The PR:BF2 team at the very least) not been transparent or accepted criticism? Sure in some areas I agree we haven't communicated to the community on stuff as much as we have on the past but I don't think we are hiding anything other than of course things like release dates and some projects we are working on for obvious reasons. I and most of the other devs are willing to answer any questions posted on these forums and many of us spend quite some time every day going over the public forums and answering questions where we can, and while sometimes we might not show it we do consider all (constructive at the very least) criticism the community posts on the forums.

If Project Reality is going to survive, we need to take things back to the drawing board, we need to be more open minded, and we need to start having more open discussions on how to most efficiently and effectively manage the development of projects.

Project Reality was never setup to be anything more than just a BF2 mod and is really unfit foundation for any other purpose. This is one of the biggest reasons behind the creation of Squad, so they could start fresh without the baggage PR has and with a proper foundation for a commercial game (lots of legal stuff etc to sort out, something you can't do with PR's foundation), which is a lot its gotten over the past 10 years of development with no one from the orignal team being on the mod, with myself being the longest serving dev and I only joined the team in v0.25

As such, Project Reality: BF2, its Mini Mods (PR:WW2 and PR:Falklands) and a bunch of Community Factions that are still in the works are our main focus and the future of PR gamepay as your well aware, is in Squad which is being developed by many ex-PR:BF2 devs but even with Squad in the works, I see PR:BF2 going for some time yet as its going to take Squad some time to get the massive amount of content and features that PR:BF2 that it has gotten from its 10 years of development.

camo
2015-10-10, 05:45
I wouldn't worry yourself bluedrake, core pr is doing just fine.

Deadfast
2015-10-10, 05:55
The attitude of the Project Reality team has become considerably more poisonous over the years. The lack of transparency, combined with their refusal to accept either help or criticism is leading to the end of the Project Reality franchise as a whole.


As has the "help" from the community. What do you think "criticism" like this does for the morale of a team? It certainly doesn't help, I can tell you that much.

The project has now been made public on GitHub, you can't go any more transparent than that.

You could argue that we should have done this sooner and I'll be the first one to agree. But please remember that this was my hobby, a side project that we worked on in our spare time.

Unfortunately over time I completely lost motivation, I got burned out. Party because it felt too much like my day job and party because I felt that nobody appreciated what I was doing. As the lead developer this was a death blow to the project and there was nobody else in the team skilled enough to step up and replace me.

I was hoping that one day all the motivation would come back and I would be able to finish the project because I poured hours of my life into it. As we can all see now that has not happened.

It took AncientMan pestering me to realize that. If I could barely force myself to port it from SVN to GitHub how was I meant to ever continue working on it?

So there you have it, you're free to fork it and build your own community around it. I'm actively monitoring the forks and I may even provide feedback when I have a few minutes. Who knows, in time I may even contribute some changes again. I do not, however, foresee myself taking on any kind of extra-active role.

EDIT:
I would also like to point out that this has absolutely no impact on any other project than PR:A3. The A3 and BF2 teams were always separate, something I would say in hindsight was a mistake.

Bluedrake42
2015-10-10, 07:15
Hey that's fine, and I'm happy to actually talk about this as long as I'm not being threatened with bans and whatnot. So if we're at the point where we can actually talk about this without the power plays then cool.

Anyways.

Rhino;2099547']Project Reality was never setup to be anything more than just a BF2 mod and is really unfit foundation for any other purpose. This is one of the biggest reasons behind the creation of Squad, so they could start fresh without the baggage PR has and with a proper foundation for a commercial game.

And I guess that's the root of this. Which was never really openly mentioned to anyone, but if Project Reality is just going to lie down and accept its fate then sure. I guess I can understand that. Makes me a little more depressed sticking around on a game that openly accepts its demise but... at least then we're all on the same page.

Rhino;2099547']In what areas exactly have (The PR:BF2 team at the very least) not been transparent or accepted criticism?

Okay well... first off I'm not talking about PR:BF2. You guys are still around for a reason. If its not broke don't fix it. So I'm not even talking about that.

HOWEVER. I would like to stress, THE AMOUNT OF EFFORT I have to put in just to glean even the smallest piece of information on the status of internal development for both Project Reality 2 and Project Reality ArmA is absurd.

So while I'm sure Epoch and others would like to say "Bluedrake you just don't understand what's going on, and you're making ignorant statements on our internal development process" OF COURSE I AM. Honestly I don't even think you all even communicate with each other. Sometimes I'm sitting here talking with developers, and it seems like you all are just as disconnected with each other as I am. Awesome.

I'm sitting here making the most informed conjectures that I can with the limited information I have available. And what I hear and see troubles me, and when I see stuff like this it only reinforces my opinion that my assumptions were correct, and that there are critical interpersonal and logistical issues keeping Project Reality from moving forward.

Deadfast;2099549']As has the "help" from the community. What do you think "criticism" like this does for the morale of a team? It certainly doesn't help, I can tell you that much.

Okay well... I guess also before we go any further let's just clear that up. To think that I'm any more interested in your all's "morale" than you are interested in mine is kindof insulting. So let's just like... not pretend my sole interest here is to tell you pretty lies that keep you happy. I'm not particularly keen on being anything other than blunt about this. Nothing more than what I'd expect from you all.

Deadfast;2099549']Unfortunately over time I completely lost motivation, I got burned out. Party because it felt too much like my day job and party because I felt that nobody appreciated what I was doing. As the lead developer this was a death blow to the project and there was nobody else in the team skilled enough to step up and replace me.

That's the first mistake. The fact that Project Reality is treated like a AAA development team when its not. The first paramount issue with Project Reality is its inability to make scale-able development plans. Only releasing huge chunks of content at a time and setting absurdly ambitious goals that prove to be too stressful for a team of hobbyist developers.

To scrap an entire project, and the development team behind it (PR:ArmA2) to build an entirely new project from scratch... while simultaneously maintaining such a small dedicated team and ambitious goals was fundamentally misguided. There were many shortcuts and less exhaustive paths that could have been taken, but I am highly suspicious that stubbornness and pride got in the way.

Of course my first solution to this would be "COMMERCIALIZE THE GAME!?!" which I pushed for a long time... but seeing that that never happened, and probably will never happen... I still think there are many ways we can move forward in Project Reality's current state, and make the most of what's left. Being that everyone who agreed with me over at Squad has obviously taken the commercial route, and of course I'm gonna ride that ship all the way to Valhalla... but I'd also prefer not to just commit Project Reality to a death bed.

So what am I'm saying can be done?

Project Reality needs to start biting off what it can chew. AKA smaller bites... if you just aren't following me. More frequent updates with smaller projects. To build both more intensive community interaction, and also maintain a steady release schedule to motivate developers.

Also this is a genuine question... what is the cross compatibility for Project Reality assets from Battlefield 2? Like I'm sitting here looking at some of these models and...

http://media.moddb.com/images/mods/1/5/4338/as565_panther_01.jpg

Seriously can someone explain to me why you aren't building a core library of assets that can be used cross-platform? Hell like... look at this shit: Military 3D Models and Textures | TurboSquid.com (http://www.turbosquid.com/Search/Index.cfm?keyword=military)

I've worked with developers before. I have purchased work from that site, and I've had developers use those assets in their games.

And don't get confused... I'm not sitting here telling you that you need to buy models off TurboSquid. However, why aren't you building a similar private library that you can use yourself?

Perhaps you'll tell me "oh well ArmA just accepts a fundamentally different format than Battlefield 2" and I'll be like okay... well. First off... to what extent? Is there still a point where you could build content, maybe without textures... or baking it or like god I have no idea anything. Can you just do work. And have that work mean that other development teams can pull from that pool of work. And not have to do more work in the future.

And then secondly. If you have a core library of assets only compatible with certain games or formats... then maybe just build that core library anyways and only focus on platforms that are compatible with them?

Why do I keep seeing your projects like ArmA and PR2 redeveloping the exact same assets for no reason? Like what's the point of having a single brand if you can't even pull from a joint pool of resources? At that point you might as well not even call it Project Reality ArmA. Just "another random tactical mod that has no affiliation with anything being made by itself" fucking woo.

Holy god its so late.

Look here I'm just saying. I could go on. I'm not a developer, I'm sure you all know more about the specifics than I do. However, I think there are still many ways that we could discuss this... and find considerably more effective and efficient ways to manage your development. You can hate on me all you want, but if we actually hashed this shit out... I guarantee either you or I will think up some pretty good ideas to smooth out your internal and logistical issues.

ComedyInK
2015-10-10, 07:56
Perhaps you'll tell me "oh well ArmA just accepts a fundamentally different format than Battlefield 2" and I'll be like okay... well. First off... to what extent? Is there still a point where you could build content, maybe without textures... or baking it or like god I have no idea anything. Can you just do work. And have that work mean that other development teams can pull from that pool of work. And not have to do more work in the future.


Maybe it's time you learn and contribute.

That 'to what extent' is the single reason that I'm not pursing modding for PR:BF2. That is the single reason that my assets for WW2 have taken months to complete when they should take weeks.

Deadfast
2015-10-10, 08:05
Okay well... I guess also before we go any further let's just clear that up. To think that I'm any more interested in your all's "morale" than you are interested in mine is kindof insulting. So let's just like... not pretend my sole interest here is to tell you pretty lies that keep you happy. I'm not particularly keen on being anything other than blunt about this. Nothing more than what I'd expect from you all.


And that's your mistake. Now I'm not asking for a bi-weekly edition of "Just how amazing Deadfast is" but if every second post is somebody telling you just how wrong and pointless everything you are doing is then you bet it's demoralizing.


That's the first mistake. The fact that Project Reality is treated like a AAA development team when its not. The first paramount issue with Project Reality is its inability to make scale-able development plans. Only releasing huge chunks of content at a time and setting absurdly ambitious goals that prove to be too stressful for a team of hobbyist developers.


I don't know what Project Reality you are talking about (as I already explained there are entirely different teams under the same brand) but the A3 team was never treated as anything resembling AAA development. And huge chunks at a time? Hardly, look at the original roadmap.


To scrap an entire project, and the development team behind it (PR:ArmA2) to build an entirely new project from scratch... while simultaneously maintaining such a small dedicated team and ambitious goals was fundamentally misguided. There were many shortcuts and less exhaustive paths that could have been taken, but I am highly suspicious that stubbornness and pride got in the way.


The reasons for having to rewrite the code were explained in detail in the OP. The code base was on life support, collapsing under the immense weight of technical debt stemming from using shortcuts and less exhaustive paths.


Of course my first solution to this would be "COMMERCIALIZE THE GAME!?!" which I pushed for a long time... but seeing that that never happened, and probably will never happen... I still think there are many ways we can move forward in Project Reality's current state, and make the most of what's left. Being that everyone who agreed with me over at Squad has obviously taken the commercial route, and of course I'm gonna ride that ship all the way to Valhalla... but I'd also prefer not to just commit Project Reality to a death bed.


For some people making their hobby commercial is not something they are interested in. For some it's exactly what they want. Luckily there are choices!


Project Reality needs to start biting off what it can chew. AKA smaller bites... if you just aren't following me. More frequent updates with smaller projects. To build both more intensive community interaction, and also maintain a steady release schedule to motivate developers.


For PR:A3 that was the original goal. Put together a stable foundation and build upon that in increments. It was a perfectly reasonable goal at that point in time. Later my availability has changed and we made the mistake of not realizing just how much.


Also this is a genuine question... what is the cross compatibility for Project Reality assets from Battlefield 2? Like I'm sitting here looking at some of these models and...

http://media.moddb.com/images/mods/1/5/4338/as565_panther_01.jpg

Seriously can someone explain to me why you aren't building a core library of assets that can be used cross-platform? Hell like... look at this shit.

Military 3D Models and Textures | TurboSquid.com (http://www.turbosquid.com/Search/Index.cfm?keyword=military)

I've worked with developers before. I have purchased work from that site, and I've had developers use those assets in their games.

And don't get confused... I'm not sitting here telling you that you need to buy models off TurboSquid. However, why aren't you building a similar private library that you can use yourself?

Perhaps you'll tell me "oh well ArmA just accepts a fundamentally different format than Battlefield 2" and I'll be like okay... well. First off... to what extent? Is there still a point where you could build content, maybe without textures... or baking it or like god I have no idea anything. Can you just do work. And have that work mean that other development teams can pull from that pool of work. And not have to do more work in the future.

And then secondly. If you have a core library of assets only compatible with certain games or formats... then maybe just build that core library anyways and only focus on platforms that are compatible with them?

Why do I keep seeing your projects like ArmA and PR2 redeveloping the exact same assets for no reason? Like what's the point of having a single brand if you can't even pull from a joint pool of resources? At that point you might as well not even call it Project Reality ArmA. Just "another random tactical mod that has no affiliation with anything being made by itself" fucking woo.


For gameplay scripts there is absolutely no overlap whatsoever between BF2 and Arma. BF2 uses Python, Arma uses SQF. The difference in language isn't the biggest problem either, you could easily rewrite a script from one language to the other but the way the script "plugs into" the game will be different too.

For vehicle and weapon models it's comparatively simple. But you have to have a high-detail model to start from. That's a problem with many of the older BF2 assets - they were made specifically for the requirements of the BF2 engine. They simply will not look good in a newer engine. Furthermore each engine will require the model to be set up differently. This is a lot of work.

In either case this is irrelevant anyway, for A3 we didn't even get to a stage where models were required.

Mineral
2015-10-10, 09:37
Man bluedrake, you are a real waste of time. Everytime you feel obliged on how to tell us to run a 'team'.
Where is the point in defending ourselves against you. You got it all figured out don't you :p Just accept the fact that we are simply mod teams and that we don't want to be something else. We aren't a brand, we aren't one big team, we are just a bunch of modders. And that's what we like to be.

Nice to see another thread discussing the death of everything. Shame arma didn't work out. But with that scripting language it's indeed almost impossible to get something big going :(

Beee8190
2015-10-10, 13:01
What I wonder is weather Arma 4 will be fundamentally changed. It is probably unlikely that we'll see a different engine but I personally would have to be impressed with the next iteration for me to consider another Arma. Yes I know its a one of a kind game but I still feel I've been let down on many fronts, especially physx and the thread OP news doesn't make my second thoughts on buying this game go away :(

Bluedrake42
2015-10-10, 18:08
Deadfast;2099557']And that's your mistake. Now I'm not asking for a bi-weekly edition of "Just how amazing Deadfast is" but if every second post is somebody telling you just how wrong and pointless everything you are doing is then you bet it's demoralizing.

I just want to talk about how everyone can make the most of their work. I'm sure you'd be happier if all the effort you put into this project had a bigger impact than it did. Maybe it still can, if we make sure the mistakes that got us here can be avoided in the future.

Mineral;2099566']Man bluedrake, you are a real waste of time.

Then you say stuff like this haha like somehow that's gonna make me care any more about your "feelings" than you do lol. The petty insults, ban threats, power plays, and overall poor attitude is not only further alienating your community... but also alienating your development teams (both existing and potential.)

If your argument is "but we like to be flawed and mean" then cool dude more power to you lol then you won't mind if I throw that right back at you. Maybe I like being a brash Youtuber who throws around bold opinions as much as you enjoy being a bickering group of persnickety developers?

However I'm not gonna sit here and take cheap shots to start off every post I make.

That 'to what extent' is the single reason that I'm not pursing modding for PR:BF2. That is the single reason that my assets for WW2 have taken months to complete when they should take weeks.

See that's a great answer. Why can't I get more posts like this?

Alright so lets talk about this, I'm genuinely curious. Outside of PR:BF2, what is the most universally accepted "format" of 3D models? I'm coming at this as a newb, so please enlighten me. To build a resource pool of the most compatible asset types seems like a pretty powerful move for future projects.

And Mineral I'm not asking this to tell you all to do it, at this point idgaf wtf you all do. However maybe if we talk about this, someone either on your team or my team will glean some useful ideas to use in the future.

Deadfast;2099557']I don't know what Project Reality you are talking about (as I already explained there are entirely different teams under the same brand) but the A3 team was never treated as anything resembling AAA development. And huge chunks at a time? Hardly, look at the original roadmap.

Yeah I'm looking at the roadmap... and I'm also looking at a development update saying that your ambitions were too high and the project failed. So... what do you want me to say? "Yes your roadmap was perfect Deadfast GG 10/10 would develop again"

So here... obviously the roadmap was too ambitious, and the development chunk was too great. Perhaps starting with smaller chunks, and releasing things in smaller bits would have not only maintained developer morale... but ALSO kept PR:ArmA3 in the spotlight more to attract potential help.

For instance, why not just release the AAS map by itself? Why not just release the squad management system by itself? Those are both things that would have been gladly used by the community, the feedback would have been given earlier and at a more critical time, and perhaps more local ArmA3 talent would have contributed.

Look for instance. Two examples.

First off, I work with a lot of bands... so let's draw a comparison there. Bands that attempt to go "quiet" and create an entire 12 track album in secret rarely make it to a release. However, bands that are open about their progress... perhaps release singles on the way, and focus around releasing smaller bits of content usually make it all the way up to their large release.

Another example. A lot of Youtubers who focus on releasing huge (but infrequent) pieces of content often burn out quicker than Youtubers who focus on releasing smaller bits of content more frequently... even when they ultimately create the same amount of quality content.

For a mod team such as yours, I think following in those footsteps are the key to success. Shit honestly... that's what PR:BF2 did. However now that PR:BF2 is so huge, every new project seems intimidated into creating this huge premiere release... when they really should just start with like... weapon tweaks, and super small shit. Just like PR:BF2 did when it started.

The reason you guys didn't have anyone to "step up" to take over after Deadfast is because no one was playing your game. Because there was nothing out there. I swear to god Deadfast probably created like (compared to PR:BF2) 4 generations of content. You need to focus on building the community first, and the product second... otherwise you will burn out, the project will fail, and there will be no one to carry the torch.

Deadfast;2099557']The reasons for having to rewrite the code were explained in detail in the OP. The code base was on life support, collapsing under the immense weight of technical debt stemming from using shortcuts and less exhaustive paths.

Okay actually look, can we clear something up? Because I don't have a clear picture about this, all I know is that there are a lot of bitter devs that have complained to me when I ask them.

Tactical Battlefield is using the same technology, the same scripts, and the same work built for PR:ArmA2. Like you all can deny that all you want, but help me cut through the bullshit here. Does that mod stem from the same project? And I don't care if it's like "oh yeah but they were working on that before they were a part of PR:ArmA2" I'm asking, did that mod at any time flow through PR:ArmA2. And was there ever an active decision to cut out that development team in order to build this new iteration?

And I ask this because, Tactical Battlefield in ArmA 3 is working fine. They adapted everything used in PR:ArmA2 over to ArmA3. Its still going strong. Granted it has like... no playerbase, because it doesn't have the Project Reality name anymore. But to say that the old system was "under life support" is kindof ridiculous... because at this point its doing better than what you ditched to create.

When I say taking shortcuts and less exhaustive options... what I'm talking about is that. I'm talking about not burning bridges with the ArmA development community by cutting people out, and not ditching systems that (while imperfect) perform adequately enough to maintain the community until alternatives are developed.

Deadfast;2099557']For some people making their hobby commercial is not something they are interested in. For some it's exactly what they want. Luckily there are choices!

Yeah cool, I mean that's fine. However I think its still reasonable to talk about what went wrong here, and how to keep it from happening again. Unless you all are like "yeah but we don't care if things fail" in which case alright cool, guess that's a lost cause. I can tell you though, I'm not particularly happy with that... especially if there are just better ways to do things. But okay...

Deadfast;2099557']For PR:A3 that was the original goal. Put together a stable foundation and build upon that in increments. It was a perfectly reasonable goal at that point in time. Later my availability has changed and we made the mistake of not realizing just how much.

I mean this just goes towards what I said before. I understand your circumstances changed, however that should be taken into consideration as a pretty predictable factor in hobbyist development. If there was a community still built around smaller public builds you may have had the assistance you needed to complete your work.

Deadfast;2099557']For gameplay scripts there is absolutely no overlap whatsoever between BF2 and Arma. BF2 uses Python, Arma uses SQF. The difference in language isn't the biggest problem either, you could easily rewrite a script from one language to the other but the way the script "plugs into" the game will be different too.

For vehicle and weapon models it's comparatively simple. But you have to have a high-detail model to start from. That's a problem with many of the older BF2 assets - they were made specifically for the requirements of the BF2 engine. They simply will not look good in a newer engine. Furthermore each engine will require the model to be set up differently. This is a lot of work.

Alright yes, that's the answer I was looking for. I totally understand the gameplay scripts are incompatible, however that second answer is exactly what I was looking for. It is possible to build a library of assets which can be used cross platform. High poly is difficult sure, but I can't imagine building a model from a low poly version would take more time than building a model from scratch. Hell even keeping around highly organized and easily accessible reference material for each asset would be worth it.

Hell even if you built a game in ArmA using lower detailed assets... I think you could still pull that off until the assets are updated. No one is going to rage over a few low poly models in an ArmA 3 game.

PricelineNegotiator
2015-10-10, 20:15
Oh hey what's going on this thread? OH MY GOD.

Bluedrake, I think you should really just take a hint. Your crowd and it's outlook doesn't really fit in too well with the base of Project Reality. I don't think it was meant to be for you to do modding / be in control of any development of the Project Reality mods.

AfterDune
2015-10-10, 20:34
Keep it civil, guys. We're on the edge of a flame war and a somewhat proper discussion.

Keep it civil and this thread will stay open ;).

Bluedrake42
2015-10-10, 20:58
Oh hey what's going on this thread? OH MY GOD.

Bluedrake, I think you should really just take a hint. Your crowd and it's outlook doesn't really fit in too well with the base of Project Reality. I don't think it was meant to be for you to do modding / be in control of any development of the Project Reality mods.

You say that like I'm vying for control of anything, or that I'm not aware that the developers don't want to hear any of this lol

I'm here because I'm responsible for one of the larger player communities in Project Reality, and I feel obligated to voicing my concerns and feedback over the failures and future of the mod.

Outside of that I'm frustrated with the PR team's terrible attitude, especially in the treatment of community members who voice their concerns... even when those concerns prove to be legitimate.

I'm not even saying you should do what I'm suggesting, but having some open talks about it probably wouldn't hurt. Otherwise you all can go back to the dev forums and keep letting yourself go.

At this point our community makes up 35% or more of Project Reality's active player base, and that's not through the love and support of the remaining Project Reality community. So you can argue that there are people here who dislike me, and I'd agree. No shit. But don't act like I don't have a reason to be here.

James2464
2015-10-10, 20:59
I would like to say publicly Deasfast worked extremely hard and built a very solid code base. He is very talented with sqf logic and thus is employed because of it :)

Bluedrake42
2015-10-10, 21:17
James2464;2099646']I would like to say publicly Deasfast worked extremely hard and built a very solid code base. He is very talented with sqf logic and thus is employed because of it :)

Hey woah I want to make sure everyone knows Deadfast pulled this entire project. Don't misinterpret me as saying Deadfast didn't do an obscene amount of quality work.

However everyone needs to be aware that banking on a single developer is both unfair to the developer, and also unrealistic for the project.

This is an issue with upper project management, not the developers themselves who pulled the weight.

Its more a tragedy for Deadfast that this project broke down in a way that didn't make the most of his hard work. I'm not even sympathetic for the community, they can get whatever they get.

However to do that much work, and have it all break down merely due to some management issues and poor administrative decisions... is heartbreaking.

Rhino
2015-10-10, 21:43
There is seriously no point in pointing fingers to why PR:AMRA3 failed in hindsight. I could list 100 things if I really wanted to but it wouldn't change or achieve anything, many of them I even pointed out when PR:ARMA2 started, one of the key ones which I was highly opposed to was the total separate teams between mods which Deadfast already has acknowledged here was a mistake in hindsight, and was even more of a problem for PR2 than it was for PR:ARMA3. But like I said, there is no point going over all these little things and if you want to change something, you now have the opportunity with the source code made public, to do so. So you can either bitch and whine about how PR:ARMA3 failed, which isn't going to achieve anything, or you can take their work and finish it off as how you see it should have been done in the first place.

At the end of the day, PR:BF2 is still going strong and intends to continue for some time and if you wish to help out with PR:BF2s development, you can as well in the community modding (https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f388-pr-bf2-community-modding) / community tasks (https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f605-community-tasks) forums. Other than that there is really nothing more to talk about...

Fabio Chavez
2015-10-10, 22:41
Do you maybe still have pra2 custom vehicle models flying around that you might like to donate to CUP?

what happened to the pra2 models that where made for BAF?
maybe they can have a second life, as should Deadfasts mission have, i want to slap together some basic aas/conquest missions for the CUP Terrain pack, if it works just halfways playable in practice, they might be handed out with CUP Terrains by default, which could supply a potential playerbase.

PricelineNegotiator
2015-10-11, 00:08
Here's an idea, is there any chance we could have an event, like a community forum or something like that? Like a state of the union, only we get to exchange info? Maybe a twitch stream, or maybe an event where we have everyone load into a classroom map or something?

Just an idea.

titsmcgee852
2015-10-12, 18:36
Blue I like your videos but I dunno if you can really comment if you've never been a modder before, it is bloody hard work and like with any big project it's easy to lose motivation. You can't really blame the A3 devs for that. After all everything that falls under the Project Reality is and always has been a mod, and 95% of mods never see the light of day so I don't think it's fair to be so outraged.

Fabio Chavez
2015-10-13, 10:31
Blue I like your videos but I dunno if you can really comment if you've never been a modder before, it is bloody hard work and like with any big project it's easy to lose motivation. You can't really blame the A3 devs for that. After all everything that falls under the Project Reality is and always has been a mod, and 95% of mods never see the light of day so I don't think it's fair to be so outraged.

on one hand i agree with you but there is also a little distiction that in my opinion can be made that would lead to some reasonable criticism, its not a "personal" mod, a3 pr devs choose to stick to the name, even when that meant that the approach they choose would mean that they have to do it on their own. If you take a known name, you load peoples expectation onto yourself and aquire the attached priviledges and obligations.
Here still is no problem.

The problem is, if you cling to a name and you are serious about it (as opposed to just sticking to it for the fame or something, which im certain wasnt the motivation of anyone involved with pra3), and you realise that you are not longer willing or able to accomplish the explained goal, you either seriously try to find help in the name of the mod, or you risk loosing legitimacy or at least to be perceived as stubborn and careless (why not let someone else do PR for a3 if you no longer can do).

I think the way it went, as far as the opinion of an outside observer has any value to it,
it wasnt allways and in every moment clear which path it would take, obviously it would have been better for the mod, if the torch had been passed earlyer, but then again the pra3 devs had their reasons too and they did all the work and now its past and it all doesnt really matter anymore.

The question is if the torch will actually be passed on or if the work that has been done will be depreciated as sunk costs.

IMHO the Core PR Devs would be really great and smart if they would AT LEAST TRY to actively pursue to find a skilled successor to the pra3 devs that now left the project.

I hope that it will be communicated clear and early on if, by the official PR side the project will be abandoned for good or if there is allready some cooking started again behind the curtain... in the latter case, please dont wait until "you have something to show" to avoid redundant work by unaffiliated outsiders :)

SavageCDN
2015-10-13, 16:49
Thank you for releasing the existing code, and for all the work put into it.