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viirusiiseli
2015-04-27, 00:35
This has been somewhat of a problem I have not remembered to ask on the forums about for a while. Playing the PRTA's map test maps for a while now it has shown to be an even bigger issue in long range maps.

The 30mm cannons on the BTR80A, MTLB-6MA ("beast"), BMP-2(M) and BMP-3 seem to have a significantly larger kill/wound radius with the HE rounds they fire, compared to Puma IFV's 30mm or Warrior's 30mm RARDEN cannon.

The 25mm bushmaster (LAV-25, M2A2, etc.) has a similar problem. Yes, the round is 5mm smaller but the difference in HE round effectiveness is very significant. Especially on longer ranges this means infantry can shrug off 25mm rounds with ease due to the cannons unrealistically high deviation and low power. Even if you fire on point with the bushmaster it's a tricky business killing someone 500+m away. With the russian series cannons despite the high deviation it's not such a problem to kill infantry since they have a pretty good splash.

The russian series cannons are very lethal and feared, while Puma, Warrior, LAV and all other blufor APCs except AAVP do not have the same effect. But as I said, it's more emphasized on longer ranges.

The blufor cannons require a bit more punch and accuracy as the view distances in PR are getting longer and longer.

DonDOOM
2015-05-04, 14:53
Thanks for the report, this is being looked into at the moment.

ComradeHX
2015-05-09, 10:20
Are you sure it's not because Russian 30mm autocannons(and Chinese 25mm ones) generally have much higher rate of fire?

Also, 30mm from Russian BMP...etc. have heavier projectile as well as overall weight than HATO counterparts.

Here assuming 30mm used for RARDEN cannon is same as this:
http://www.ordtech-industries.com/2products/ammunition/medium/medf/30x170mm.pdf

Projectile mass: 360g

http://militarypribor.ru/en/30-mm-cartridges-for-combat-helicopters
3UOF8(the in-game 30mm HE round for Russia-made vehicles)

Projectile mass: 0.389kg = 389g

Also, projectile being 5mm smaller in diameter can mean a lot, depending on how long the projectiles are.

http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/cv/weapon/M242.html
M792 HEI-T(for U.S. Bradley...etc.)
Projectile weight: 6.42 oz (182 g)
Yes, it's less than half as heavy(here I'm assuming heavier = more explosives and more metal for fragmentation) as Russian stronk 30mm.

I support giving BluFor autocannons a bit more accuracy; but more punch? I don't think that would be realistic.
While we are at it, might aswell give BMP-3 much higher accuracy due to autocannon barrel being stabilized by 100mm barrel on an oversized turret ring(stronk Russian engineering).

http://thesovietarmourblog.blogspot.com/2014/10/bmp-3-underappreciated-prodigy.html
"In a consecutive test, the autocannon displayed a high degree of accuracy at a range of 2600m, on the same day."
Which should mean nearly-pinpoint accuracy in PR ranges(also to represent fact that it's stabilized).




Also, I constantly play OpFor and I can tell you that killing people at long range typically means spamming multiple 30mm rounds; just because one round lands relatively close to target infantry that does not mean it's going to kill in one hit.

viirusiiseli
2015-05-11, 00:29
Yadda yadda yadda

Yes ROF is a factor as is caliber etc but the difference is too big for balance. No need to make it into a huge discussion.

ComradeHX
2015-05-11, 00:44
Yes ROF is a factor as is caliber etc but the difference is too big for balance. No need to make it into a huge discussion.

Difference, in game, is quite small for a projectile(25mm) less than HALF as heavy as 30mm.
If you increase radius for 25mm HE, you will also make Chinese WZ-551 better.

If you don't like how OpFor has better APC; play tanks(unless you are playing against RUS or CHN, then you play CAS, or if that fails too, play INF for better smallarms).

Also, BMP...etc. are fine; they take one hit from LAT(also because some BluFor has AT-4) in the rear and they die.
BluFor APC(at least the ones with autocannnon) do not ever die with one LAT(here assuming RPG-7 and RPG-26 does same amount of damage) to the rear(assuming it has not been damaged previously).

Don't forget that BTR-80A, BMP-2, MTLB...etc. do not have thermals; so practically they can be a lot less effective depending on map.
The difference between having thermals and not having it is pretty BIG when fighting in heavily-wooded areas and/or night times and/or longer ranges.

Asymmetrical balance, remember?

Truism
2015-05-11, 07:36
ComradeHX is unfortunately right. The projectiles from pact IFV just are better. On the other hand, the advantages of western vehicles (fcs, c2 systems) just aren't modelled.

Mats391
2015-05-11, 09:24
25mm and 30mm of both NATO and PACT do have the same deviation. We are looking at reevaluating the deviation setup, but this not be part of the next patch.

viirusiiseli
2015-05-11, 14:01
Yadda Yadda Yadda

As I expected, you missed my point. It was just a notion that with the increasing ranges in PR, the BLUFOR cannons HE rounds are nearly useless for long ranges, whereas Russian cannons work just fine and this situation needs a change.

BLUFOR cannons need a buff to be lethal at long ranges. Didn't say they need to be better than everything else because yay BLUFOR. Don't distort the discussion to what you think it means.

ComradeHX
2015-05-11, 20:30
As I expected, you missed my point. It was just a notion that with the increasing ranges in PR, the BLUFOR cannons HE rounds are nearly useless for long ranges, whereas Russian cannons work just fine and this situation needs a change.

BLUFOR cannons need a buff to be lethal at long ranges. Didn't say they need to be better than everything else because yay BLUFOR. Don't distort the discussion to what you think it means.

BluFor is buffed in thermals, as in better situational awareness, if nothing else.

OpFor gets none for most vehicles and/or only has thermals for gunner.

BluFor autocannons CAN BE just as lethal as OpFor ones at long range where OpFor typically do not have thermals to even see the enemy(you can have a nuke cannon but it's not going to kill anyone if not fired).

I also brought up evidence for BMP-3 autocannon accuracy(stronk Russian design) not being substantially worse than BluFor vehicles.

You missed the point, which is asymmetrical balance. BluFor autocannon getting slightly better acccuracy = fine(also make BMP-3 more accurate then), BluFor 25mm and 30mm getting damage buff = makes no sense, because CHN 25mm would need buff.

M42 Zwilling
2015-05-11, 20:51
I will be looking into this for 1.4 (hopefully). I need to research further what accuracy these guns are capable of, but from what I've seen I suspect that the base accuracy is too low across the board. I also have another deviation-related change in mind that will probably tip the balance in BLUFOR's favor in terms of accuracy, but don't expect any changes to damage.

I don't see any point to continuing this discussion. Feel free to bring it up again after 1.4.