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viirusiiseli
2015-04-12, 22:16
The german tiger's FLIR, because of its location on top of the rotor is currently really bad visibility wise. The rotor flashing in front of you makes it really hard to see forward and honestly makes the gunner near-blind. The nose of the heli is already blocking your forward view and this really makes it a hard heli to use. It's the worst on thermals but is a big annoyance without aswell.

Mongolian_dude
2015-04-12, 23:37
The GER Tiger is probably my favourite AH in PR because its just so different, not least of all because of the lack of a cannon and it's awesome disco ball. While it might not be as capable when employed in the same fashion as other AHs, particularly the traditional high angle attack, it does allow you to do some awesome stuff with unparalleled potency. Certainly your overall situational awareness as a crew improves with the 360' rotating mast.
I personally have had a great deal of success piloting the GER Tiger on Wanda Shan. The mast-mounted disco ball, coupled with the anorexic width and high manoeuvrability of the Tiger, means its a great piece of kit for hovering between 6m gaps in tree lines to ambush unsuspecting armour. I'd love to have a shot at using the same tactics on Silent Eagle!


The FR variant with cannon and cockpit mounted FLIR, on the other hand... Now that is kind of nightmarish! Especially with Xiangshan's view distance.

viirusiiseli
2015-04-13, 00:26
Mongolian_dude;2066605']The GER Tiger is probably my favourite AH in PR because its just so different, not least of all because of the lack of a cannon and it's awesome disco ball. While it might not be as capable when employed in the same fashion as other AHs, particularly the traditional high angle attack, it does allow you to do some awesome stuff with unparalleled potency. Certainly your overall situational awareness as a crew improves with the 360' rotating mast.
I personally have had a great deal of success piloting the GER Tiger on Wanda Shan. The mast-mounted disco ball, coupled with the anorexic width and high manoeuvrability of the Tiger, means its a great piece of kit for hovering between 6m gaps in tree lines to ambush unsuspecting armour. I'd love to have a shot at using the same tactics on Silent Eagle!


The FR variant with cannon and cockpit mounted FLIR, on the other hand... Now that is kind of nightmarish! Especially with Xiangshan's view distance.

You've had a great deal of success piloting the Tiger <30m off the ground, where your flares are rendered useless and every single AT weapon and tank has angle on you? I'm sorry but I find this quite hard to believe. I do enjoy the tiger's differences too but the migraine-inducing thermals are not one of those lovable differences.

Mongolian_dude
2015-04-13, 22:05
You've had a great deal of success piloting the Tiger <30m off the ground, where your flares are rendered useless and every single AT weapon and tank has angle on you? I'm sorry but I find this quite hard to believe. I do enjoy the tiger's differences too but the migraine-inducing thermals are not one of those lovable differences.

I wish I could remember the name of my gunner so he could back me up on this, but I kid you not, the RL pop-up tactic worked like a treat.

We only ever deployed flares when we flew at medium or high altitudes where there is no cover and where AA is inevitably looking for targets. We killed about 2 Type 95 SPAA, largely because they felt they were away from the main combat zone and were not alert at all. I can't even recall if we got locked by AA while at tree level.

I imagine it would have been really difficult for an AA to get a lock on us despite us being stationary, because 85% of the vehicle is behind dense forest. We only had about 4 different spots that had a good line of retreat behind hilly terrain, each looking out over the various clearings that make up the map. Not visible from the sides, I suspect because of all the trees and hilly terrain, the obstacles would have blocked and quietened the sound, giving the impression we were much higher and further away than in reality.
We were not engaged a single time by INF or armour the entire time we were 30m (more like 12m).
It was just like being a sniper team, I suppose, except with serious magnification, high speed, mobility and ATGMs. We didn't get a ruthless amount of kills like you might do patrolling, it was somewhere not short of 40-0 or 40-2.
I have to admit it is really quite stressful trying to maintain such a steady hover as to depress the bird into a forest between tress like that, but (except maybe for the Kiowa) it really is the best heli in PR for the job.

As for the FLIR, I've used it a bunch of times and it really hasn't proved much of an issue. Again, only with the French Tiger, which has its FLIR located above the cockpit and beneath the rotor blades, has it been a real issue.

Viirus mate, I urge you to have a go at doing exactly this with the GER Tiger and make it into one of your gameplay videos! I'd love to watch that.

Mats391
2015-04-13, 22:18
While i see this tactic working on Wanda, i cannot picture it having any success on Silent Eagle. There isnt that much dense forest around. You might be able to use the hills in the east for that, but on the rest of the map you would be pretty exposed. Being matched against a Hind (or Havok?) isnt helping either. The HJ-8 Z9 is no real threat to the Tiger, the auto-cannon of Russian choppers however will rip you apart, especially if they attack you from above.

viirusiiseli
2015-04-13, 22:38
Mongolian_dude;2066805']I wish I could remember the name of my gunner so he could back me up on this, but I kid you not, the RL pop-up tactic worked like a treat.

We only ever deployed flares when we flew at medium or high altitudes where there is no cover and where AA is inevitably looking for targets. We killed about 2 Type 95 SPAA, largely because they felt they were away from the main combat zone and were not alert at all. I can't even recall if we got locked by AA while at tree level.

I imagine it would have been really difficult for an AA to get a lock on us despite us being stationary, because 85% of the vehicle is behind dense forest. We only had about 4 different spots that had a good line of retreat behind hilly terrain, each looking out over the various clearings that make up the map. Not visible from the sides, I suspect because of all the trees and hilly terrain, the obstacles would have blocked and quietened the sound, giving the impression we were much higher and further away than in reality.
We were not engaged a single time by INF or armour the entire time we were 30m (more like 12m).
It was just like being a sniper team, I suppose, except with serious magnification, high speed, mobility and ATGMs. We didn't get a ruthless amount of kills like you might do patrolling, it was somewhere not short of 40-0 or 40-2.
I have to admit it is really quite stressful trying to maintain such a steady hover as to depress the bird into a forest between tress like that, but (except maybe for the Kiowa) it really is the best heli in PR for the job.

As for the FLIR, I've used it a bunch of times and it really hasn't proved much of an issue. Again, only with the French Tiger, which has its FLIR located above the cockpit and beneath the rotor blades, has it been a real issue.

Viirus mate, I urge you to have a go at doing exactly this with the GER Tiger and make it into one of your gameplay videos! I'd love to watch that.

If a server ever plays that rare map I'll do that and post the result no matter what happens..

However I don't understand what the problem with the french tigers camera is? It seems better in every way to me.

Mongolian_dude
2015-04-13, 23:16
If a server ever plays that rare map I'll do that and post the result no matter what happens..

However I don't understand what the problem with the french tigers camera is? It seems better in every way to me.

I think your maybe confusing the two?
This is our German friend, the UHT with the disco-ball, mast-mounted FLIR.

http://www.aircraftcompare.com/aircraft_images/1330.jpg
Very handy for taking cover behind and seeing over obstacles. Full 360' rotation and powerful magnification.

And this is his one of his French counterparts, a HAD with the FLIR sitting below the rotor and on top of the cockpit:
http://media.defenceindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_Tiger_HAP_Water_lg.jpg
Iirc, it has near-180' rotation, poor negative angles and vision at positive angles is blocked by the very intrusive main rotor blades.

viirusiiseli
2015-04-14, 01:43
Mongolian_dude;2066823']I think your maybe confusing the two?
This is our German friend, the UHT with the disco-ball, mast-mounted FLIR.

http://www.aircraftcompare.com/aircraft_images/1330.jpg
Very handy for taking cover behind and seeing over obstacles. Full 360' rotation and powerful magnification.

And this is his one of his French counterparts, a HAD with the FLIR sitting below the rotor and on top of the cockpit:
http://media.defenceindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_Tiger_HAP_Water_lg.jpg
Iirc, it has near-180' rotation, poor negative angles and vision at positive angles is blocked by the very intrusive main rotor blades.

Negative angles are only poor if flown improperly. Angle of attack is all you need for good negative visibility. As for positive angle, nearly useless most times in attack helis at high altitudes.

Spook
2015-04-14, 05:53
The Tiger, especially the german one is the shittiest AHE ingame, I always said. I try to avoid that thing at all costs. Not only that you can barely control that thing as soon as you enter the slightest pitch down angle but also because of said thermals. Trying to find targets with thermals on your own, especially INF in forests is almost impossible.

Mats391;2066809']The HJ-8 Z9 is no real threat to the Tiger, the auto-cannon of Russian choppers however will rip you apart, especially if they attack you from above.

Tiger doesn't stand a chance against the Z9. Z9 is extremely agile and you can easily outmaneuvre the Tiger even if he is in a superior position. The HJ-8 have this much higher turn-radius due to their low speed(?) and makes it extremely easy to hit the Tiger with the first or second missile already.

I cannot remember that I ever got killed by a Tiger on Wanda.

Whatever the purpose of the top camera is RL (overtop attacks etc.) its nothing you can make use of in PR really and just gives you a disadvantage in almost all aspects of AHE gameplay. But I figured there is nothing much you can do to fix the rotor thing so I never reported it.

Jacksonez__
2015-04-14, 09:51
Just a little offtopic: doesn't Kiowa 2nd pilot/spotter also have this kind of "discoball" FLIR? Hard to laze things in my opinion. But thats about it.

Spook
2015-04-14, 10:09
Yeah, but its less of a problem there because you can easily make steep attacks and give the co pilot clear view towards the ground.

PatrickLA_CA
2015-04-14, 16:08
With the kiowa you can go nose down and still be able to go up, with the tiger - no.

Mats391
2015-04-14, 22:18
Would giving the German Tiger a top-attack mode help? With that you could easier engage target from behind cover. On the downside it would make the chopper even worse in dogfights.
Another thing would be to look at making the rotor more transparent. Not sure how realistic that would be though.

viirusiiseli
2015-04-15, 15:22
Mats391;2067030']Would giving the German Tiger a top-attack mode help? With that you could easier engage target from behind cover. On the downside it would make the chopper even worse in dogfights.
Another thing would be to look at making the rotor more transparent. Not sure how realistic that would be though.

Making the rotor more transparent would help tons already. The way I see it, without change this heli will remain like the MTLB 7.62mm of attack helicopters. Obsolete, hated and used in a completely wrong way.

Tiger doesn't stand a chance against the Z9. Z9 is extremely agile and you can easily outmaneuvre the Tiger even if he is in a superior position. The HJ-8 have this much higher turn-radius due to their low speed(?) and makes it extremely easy to hit the Tiger with the first or second missile already.

I cannot remember that I ever got killed by a Tiger on Wanda..

Ehh... All you said is either not quite true or easily debatable.

Agility, well, tiger is extremely agile in its own way. If you know how to fly it, it maneuvers amazingly well. It just has a couple of quirks flying-wise to be careful about.

HJ-8 due to its spiraling trajectory sometimes makes you miss in places where a hellfire would've hit. HJ-8 does not turn as fast as a HF.

And the reason you have never been killed by the tiger is most likely because pilots rarely get to fly it. Zhi-9 is easy for anyone, handles just like any other light heli. Tiger on the other hand needs some previous experience to be flown properly.

Mongolian_dude
2015-04-16, 10:58
It seems like much of the criticisms laid against the Tiger here are from people employing it in the exact same way they would other AHEs. Has anyone actually tried doing something different with it and making use of it's more unique attributes? Just me?

I can totally understand the outcries against the French variant which is equipped to compete with other world-class AHEs and comes up short, but many of the Tiger variants represent a somewhat different doctrine. For the sake of utility in PR, consider it a slightly more robust hybrid between two light AHEs (Z-9 an excellent example!), more tuned to reconnaissance than heavy attack like the AH-64d, Mi-28, Z-10. In fact it is more similar to something like the Z-19 (http://pds25.egloos.com/pds/201212/02/60/f0205060_50bb67707b031.jpg), which we do not have in PR.

There is so much fun/realism to be had and I feel like many are missing out!

viirusiiseli
2015-04-17, 00:47
Mongolian_dude;2067287']It seems like much of the criticisms laid against the Tiger here are from people employing it in the exact same way they would other AHEs. Has anyone actually tried doing something different with it and making use of it's more unique attributes? Just me?

I can totally understand the outcries against the French variant which is equipped to compete with other world-class AHEs and comes up short, but many of the Tiger variants represent a somewhat different doctrine. For the sake of utility in PR, consider it a slightly more robust hybrid between two light AHEs (Z-9 an excellent example!), more tuned to reconnaissance than heavy attack like the AH-64d, Mi-28, Z-10. In fact it is more similar to something like the Z-19 (http://pds25.egloos.com/pds/201212/02/60/f0205060_50bb67707b031.jpg), which we do not have in PR.

There is so much fun/realism to be had and I feel like many are missing out!

It could and still can be used as a full on attack heli, it's just that the rotor is blinding. This is literally the only problem. If the rotor doesn't blind the gunner there is no fault with the tiger. If that is fixed it can be used as both, low and high modes.

Frontliner
2015-04-17, 04:40
Mats391;2067030']Would giving the German Tiger a top-attack mode help? With that you could easier engage target from behind cover. On the downside it would make the chopper even worse in dogfights.
Another thing would be to look at making the rotor more transparent. Not sure how realistic that would be though.

What about fixing the flying attributes? A large number of people complain that the Tiger will crash if you point downwards and I've seen a whole lot of Tigers crash on the heli pad because of this. Or has this already been changed?

Mats391
2015-04-17, 07:46
What about fixing the flying attributes? A large number of people complain that the Tiger will crash if you point downwards and I've seen a whole lot of Tigers crash on the heli pad because of this. Or has this already been changed?

Not sure on the flight physics, but landing is way easier now. If i can do it, everyone can :p

Spook
2015-04-17, 09:12
Mats thats not in 1.2 yet. The fix was applied for 1.3

Mongolian_dude
2015-04-17, 12:01
Mats thats not in 1.2 yet. The fix was applied for 1.3

Mats, I think that's what he's saying. For everyone's information, the issue is that the skids have the wrong material setting applied to them, meaning that landing actually counts as a collision and also contributes heavily to the Tiger's tendency to roll over on the deck. It has since been resolved for the next release.

Rhino
2015-04-17, 14:17
Thanks for the Alpha Project mod team spotting it and informing us about it :)

Mats391
2015-04-17, 15:45
Mats thats not in 1.2 yet. The fix was applied for 1.3

Now, next week, next month all the same ;)

Mongolian_dude
2015-04-17, 22:02
Also, as I understand it, efforts are being made to make the Tiger rotor more palatable and transparent for use with the upper-mounted FLIR systems for each variant.

Mats391
2015-04-18, 12:50
Mongolian_dude;2067568']Also, as I understand it, efforts are being made to make the Tiger rotor more palatable and transparent for use with the upper-mounted FLIR systems for each variant.

We dont have anyone doing that yet. If someone wants to be faster than us just edit the texture at \objects\vehicles\Air\ger_ahe_tiger\textures\ger_t iger_mainrotor.dds :). In the meantime i will try to get one of our texture guys on it.

Edit: Found this video from a Kiowa showing how much the rotors are visible in real life
MT2n9I2U_uI

viirusiiseli
2015-04-20, 13:29
Mats391;2067655']We dont have anyone doing that yet. If someone wants to be faster than us just edit the texture at \objects\vehicles\Air\ger_ahe_tiger\textures\ger_t iger_mainrotor.dds :). In the meantime i will try to get one of our texture guys on it.

Edit: Found this video from a Kiowa showing how much the rotors are visible in real life
MT2n9I2U_uI

Of course it's a different helicopter (different blade size etc.) but that looks a lot better than what the tiger is ingame. A similar looking view in-game would work wonders. Also, lol at the video