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[GER]Birnd
2015-03-20, 23:06
Attack Helicopters with LG Missiles with a good gunner dont have to rely on any intel. They can destroy everything since AA doesnt work if the Pilot flies correctly.(Most of the AA Kits dont function at all anyway) Often enough a whole round is decided by 1 Attack Chopper. 3 Digit Kill counts are Possible. They can take multiple HE or AP Rounds.

P.S.:
WTF Developers? :confused:

viirusiiseli
2015-03-22, 03:40
Birnd;2061985']Attack Helicopters with LG Missiles with a good gunner dont have to rely on any intel. They can destroy everything since AA doesnt work if the Pilot flies correctly.(Most of the AA Kits dont function at all anyway) Often enough a whole round is decided by 1 Attack Chopper. 3 Digit Kill counts are Possible. They can take multiple HE or AP Rounds.

P.S.:
WTF Developers? :confused:

I think in this patch it might seem worse than it is because of the handheld stinger's lock-on problem. Also, if a heli is going 3 digit kill counts, they have a spotter/commander. Coming from someone who's done this. Flying in the blind is quite hard actually, the enemies have most likely had commander/spotter against you.

[GER]Birnd
2015-03-22, 20:11
On the WotF Torunament we played on modded Operation Archer with different Factions. We had 2 Manpads and two Avengers sending Rockets flying everytime CAS attacked our Fobs and AA Vehicles, Cas still killed our AA emplacements several times and 1 Avenger even though more than 10 AA Rockets were flying everytime she attacked. There was no Commander or Infantry spotting due to the disabled UAV. Just unbearable.

PatrickLA_CA
2015-03-22, 21:12
I find CAS, especially helicopters extremely easy to kill, you just need to make sure you shoot at them with the AA when they are flying towards you, not away from you.

[GER]Birnd
2015-03-23, 14:05
Its easy to shoot down inexperienced Pilots. If u fly properly AA wont kill u.

Frontliner
2015-03-23, 19:21
I think in this patch it might seem worse than it is because of the handheld stinger's lock-on problem. Also, if a heli is going 3 digit kill counts, they have a spotter/commander. Coming from someone who's done this. Flying in the blind is quite hard actually, the enemies have most likely had commander/spotter against you.

UAV is broken, CAS or no CAS, but at the very least it seems they found a sensible solution that hopefully will be implemented next patch, so I'll leave it at that.

To me, it doesn't matter whether or not the handheld Stinger is bugged currently, CAS helis especially aren't fazed by AA emplacements which should be the go-to counter for infantry in order to tackle everything airbourne, and yet it hardly ever works because the pilot can just flare a bit and avoid getting shot. This should've been adressed a while ago already, so I doubt it's going to be.

Spook
2015-03-23, 19:36
I have no issues shooting down CAS. And If i am doing CAS and enemies have dedicated AA players I too can get shot pretty easily even when extremely careful.

If someone can kill an AAV without knowing its location before attacking the issue is not the CAS but the AAV gunner himself.

_Fizzco_
2015-03-24, 18:12
This is more a case of AA being kind of broken. It really is 100% luck. I've found the best tactic is to not even lock on. Just look in the general direction of the CAS and shoot everything you have. This is literally the only feasible tactic to use AA against CAS.

I have watched a Havoc fly over a whole team at very slow speed. Not only did he have 2 LAVS shooting at him, 50 cal from avengers and 2 avengers so thats 16 missiles? not to mention the 2 AA emplacements that were up and the handheld AA (so more like 20 missiles ish) Nothing. He simply flew off without a care in the world only to turn around and kill both the avengers before they could rearm. Liam can attest to this (and i hope he does cus as annoying as it was it was fucking hillarious)

PatrickLA_CA
2015-03-24, 18:35
Well whoever was in the APCs was really inaccurate, it only takes 3-4 shots to down a CAS.

Rhino
2015-03-24, 18:47
This is more a case of AA being kind of broken. It really is 100% luck.

Not really. If you know how to use AA then you can shoot down even the best pilots. The problem is not that many people understand how AA really works and how to use it effectively, and as such then they just fire off and hope which is yes then about luck if it hits :p

This video explains most of how to use AA Missiles:
K6mXKvb6GXQ


I personally can get around a 90% hit rate with AA missiles myself, unless I'm not being conservative with ammo and taking pot shots I know are unlikely to hit which then it drops to around 75%.

Senshi
2015-03-24, 21:20
I hope you are kidding with your claimed 90% hit ratio, because I dare you to prove that against skilled CAS pilots. I would bet real money that this kind of ratio is absolutely impossible.

A good CAS pilot doesn't really have to bother about AA too much. Even following all the tricks outlined in Murkey's video, your AA simply won't hit a flare-spamming CAS in most cases, no matter if it's stationary, moving towards/away from you. It's easier to hit them when they come at you, but you rarely kill them. Sometimes you hit/"hurt" them due to a near miss, but it's near-impossible to instantly kill them. They almost always will make it back home safely to repair and rearm.

The experience of all the past tournaments and everyday public play on European servers shows clearly that AA stands no chance unless the CAS pilot makes a mistake or does very risky attack runs.

The biggest risk and most effective counter for CAS choppers currently is the enemy CAS chopper. Definitely more than 50% (most likely even more than 75%) of CAS losses are due to CAS vs CAS dogfight. Which entirely defeats the whole rock-paper-scissor-principle that works for most other PR warfare.

Hell, choppers in general are crazily robust. Some choppers survive a 120mm tank shell (Chinook, Hind)! CAS choppers take ~6 hits by 30mm autocannon. And a near-infinite amount of "smaller" caliber such as .50 cal.

mandariene
2015-03-24, 21:36
Rhino;2062464']Not really. If you know how to use AA then you can shoot down even the best pilots. The problem is not that many people understand how AA really works and how to use it effectively, and as such then they just fire off and hope which is yes then about luck if it hits :p

This video explains most of how to use AA Missiles:


SNIP


I personally can get around a 90% hit rate with AA missiles myself, unless I'm not being conservative with ammo and taking pot shots I know are unlikely to hit which then it drops to around 75%.


The simple fact that the Stinger is totally fucked, and has been for more than five months makes me call "Bollocks!" on this. Not only do you not get any lock-on sounds, you also have the bloody zoom that takes away any situational awareness - you simply can't aim before the helo because then you don't see it.
Problems are less extreme for the Strela, but it still is ludicrously easy to fuck things up as the CAS helo.

Not only is the sound system broken (since 1.0, if a helicopter flies directly at you, you will hear it once it is above you - and after it kills you). On top of that the flare-system is ludicrously powerful to the point that spamming flares will negate any AA - no matter how many tubes are aimed at the helicopter.

Even PR to certain degree relies on a rock-scissor-paper mechanic - and the CAS helicopter is like the big, black wolf that eats all three...

Rhino
2015-03-24, 21:39
I hope you are kidding with your claimed 90% hit ratio, because I dare you to prove that against skilled CAS pilots. I would bet real money that this kind of ratio is absolutely impossible.

A good CAS pilot doesn't really have to bother about AA too much. Even following all the tricks outlined in Murkey's video, your AA simply won't hit a flare-spamming CAS in most cases, no matter if it's stationary, moving towards/away from you. It's easier to hit them when they come at you, but you rarely kill them. Sometimes you hit/"hurt" them due to a near miss, but it's near-impossible to instantly kill them. They almost always will make it back home safely to repair and rearm.

Like I said in my previous post, I normally don't fire my AA unless I'm pretty damn sure its going to hit, which is why I can achieve around a 90% hit ratio, which isn't a lie.

But even against flare spamming choppers, its possible to find gaps in their "flare shield" if you know how the missiles work and how to use them. But yes there are times when you can't get a shot off because of it. This is why you need to move to a place the CAS doesn't expect you to be so they don't flare spam before you start trying to lock them. CAS only really flare spam when they go into areas they know have AA, or are likley to have AA, so you need to go outside of that if you really want to get a good shot on them before they can do anything about trying to counter you.

There are also many more tricks to the trade than highlighted in Murkey's video. One of the biggest and unknown ones is deliberately locking on and firing at a flare that is between you and the chopper, knowing that once the missile misses that flare, the next target its going to find is the enemy chopper which will get no warning at all for it to deploy more flares even.

Hell, choppers in general are crazily robust. Some choppers survive a 120mm tank shell (Chinook, Hind)! CAS choppers take ~6 hits by 30mm autocannon. And a near-infinite amount of "smaller" caliber such as .50 cal.

You should post detailed bug reports on these:
https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f26-pr-bf2-bugs
https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f26-pr-bf2-bugs/129219-bugs-forum-procedures-read-before-posting.html

mandariene
2015-03-24, 21:49
Rhino;2062496']
But even against flare spamming choppers, its possible to find gaps in their "flare shield" if you know how the missiles work and how to use them. But yes there are times when you can't get a shot off because of it. This is why you need to move to a place the CAS doesn't expect you to be so they don't flare spam before you start trying to lock them. CAS only really flare spam when they go into areas they know have AA, or are likley to have AA, so you need to go outside of that if you really want to get a good shot on them before they can do anything about trying to counter you.


Small hint: Usually a team can't wait for me to crawl over the map, but has to rely on an AA to protect a certain area - that's the entire bloody point of building an AA emplacement in the first place.

Rhino;2062496']
There are also many more tricks to the trade than highlighted in Murkey's video. One of the biggest and unknown ones is deliberately locking on and firing at a flare that is between you and the chopper, knowing that once the missile misses that flare, the next target its going to find is the enemy chopper which will get no warning at all for it to deploy more flares even.


This is not unknown, it has been the case since practically forever (I remember doing that in the 0.8something builds, which is definitely not the first version of PR I played). The way rockets work hasn't changed fundamentally, my experience still applies.
Edit: On top of that, the situation you describe is practically impossible to achieve under real conditions. Heck, I'm not even a good CAS pilot, and even I can show you how easy it is for me to get away...

Last but not least comes the problem that most helicopters don't go down when they are hit - they start smoking, sometimes even burning and fly back into their base to repair. Congratulations, in two minutes your tanks will be under threat again...

Senshi
2015-03-24, 21:52
When you lock from an unexpected location on a non-flaring CAS, it will immediately start continuously dropping flares until it gets far enough away to lose the lock. While you still wait for the lock and the AA travels towards the chopper, the flares will already be far enough away to nullify or minimize any serious damage, so it can just "shrug it off".

The trick of "bouncing" the missile off a flare onto the chopper also rarely works, because CAS usually is generous with its flares. In most cases, once your missile misses the first flare, it will lock on to another flare and veer completely off-course.

I'm fairly certain most experienced players only fire AA when they are fairly certain of having a good-ish chance of hitting. It's just you never have a real good chance to hit. As said, the moment the CAS drops flares, your AA almost always locks on to one of those instead of the chopper, and the splash damage of AA quickly evaporates with every bit of distance.

I hope more veteran players speak up on this topic, to make it clear that this is not an issue of "Learn 2 Play", but an actual balance problem.

Geronimo
2015-03-24, 22:05
I agree with Senshi on this.

The best counter to a cas-chopper is another cas-chopper. That doesn't sound balanced to me.

Rhino
2015-03-24, 22:22
I hope more veteran players speak up on this topic, to make it clear that this is not an issue of "Learn 2 Play", but an actual balance problem.

No I didn't say that. I was actually just replying to _Fizzco_ on his comments that the AA is "100% down to luck" as that simply isn't the case and hence why I only quoted that bit from his post.

I do agree that Heavy Attack Choppers are OP at the moment, but have yet to see any suggestions on how you guys think it should be changed.

fecht_niko
2015-03-24, 22:24
What fizzco said. just shoot without lock and hope to hit.

Remember the WoF Beirut battle with a very skilled team having 3 Stormer (? 8 rockets) + manpad AA + handheld AA and the hit ratio was around 10%.

Where do u play Rhino?

What could be changed: Only rockets for lazed targets + cannon with more deviation

Mats391
2015-03-24, 22:54
Does the bouncing off flares even work? The missiles are coded to explode close to the target they are following, so if that is a flare they will explode close to that.
AA missile are getting a bit of change in the next patch. We are yet to test how effective they are tho.

Rhino
2015-03-24, 23:10
Where do u play Rhino?

I don't play PR that often these days since the guys I normally play PR with don't play it much any more and most of my free time I spend working on PR too. But hoping to get back into playing again soon :)

Mats391;2062508']Does the bouncing off flares even work? The missiles are coded to explode close to the target they are following, so if that is a flare they will explode close to that.

Ye, it works surprisingly well if you know how to use it but pretty hard to find the right situation to do it in.

The proximity "ObjectTemplate.detonation.triggerType" for AA missiles is "MTYVehicle", which flares don't come under so the most they can do is divert the missile away from a target and then once the missile has passed it, it normally can't find the proper target again.

This is also one of the big culprits for TKing with AA missiles since after a missile has gone past a flare, sometimes the only other target it can find after that is a friendly aircraft and goes after that :p

Truism
2015-03-25, 02:44
I'll speak up as a veteran. AA is, and has always been, ineffective againsy even moderately talented CAS pilots. The only effective AA in the game is other air assets, as it has always been. This is why, since the very dawn of PR, the first thing air units do when they get up is hunt other air units.

There isn't a straight forward fix that won't make bits of the population mad. The only straight forward fix is to increase the range of AA weapons so there is no situation at all where air units can pose a threat to AA units without deception of terrain masking. This won't allow AA to kill decent CAS pilots much better, but it will allow AA to deny the free use of certain areas of the map, since using them would vost so many flares. The problem is that PR weapons are blind to map layers, so any 2km or smaller maps would cease to function properly for all CAS.

Jacksonez__
2015-03-25, 08:50
Killing a Chinook with AA manpad is harder than killing CAS HeCo / jet. Igla is the best AA kit imo. Don't wait for a lock, just aim and fire. AA rockets seem to be approximite.

Mats391
2015-03-25, 10:34
Rhino;2062513']Ye, it works surprisingly well if you know how to use it but pretty hard to find the right situation to do it in.

The proximity "ObjectTemplate.detonation.triggerType" for AA missiles is "MTYVehicle", which flares don't come under so the most they can do is divert the missile away from a target and then once the missile has passed it, it normally can't find the proper target again.

This is also one of the big culprits for TKing with AA missiles since after a missile has gone past a flare, sometimes the only other target it can find after that is a friendly aircraft and goes after that :p

They also have "ObjectTemplate.detonation.detonateDistanceToTarget" which should be the distance to the target they locked on. Then again the bf2 lock system works in mysterious ways :)

_Fizzco_
2015-03-25, 17:42
Should AA missiles still explode on flares? because from what i've seen they just fly through flares (literally inches away from choppers) I'm pretty sure this was intentional right? I feel like it kinda nerfs AA though, back when AA would explode on flares i found it a lot easier to get kills off on CAS

I'm still waiting for Liam to get in on this cus he can attest to my story ^^ I'll try get a video for you.

Senshi
2015-03-25, 19:01
Rhino already said AA doesn't explode on flares, which it doesn't. You can even see the missile "zip away" sometimes after it has passed a flare.

In terms of balance, a couple of suggestions spring to mind immediately:
Lower CAS (and maybe trans as well) hitpoints
This is probably the easiest and most transparent "fix".
As said before, a 120mm round from a tank fails to kill a Hind or Chinook.
It takes a good salvo of hits of 30mm autocannons (as found on heavy APCs/IFVs) to down a CAS. Considering it's pretty difficult to hit a chopper with this cannon at all and it's easily avoided by flying high and fast, it's OK if this becomes more effective.
Smaller calibers such as .50cal will also take forever or multiple guns to do reasonable damage.
Increase attractivity of AA. Especially stationary. While it can fire two missiles at once and has some reloads, the immobility usually means that you get kissed by Hellfires before you ever see a chopper.
In addition, manning a stationary AA and having to rotate continuously like a retard (= best way to scan the sky for choppers) is no fun at all and nobody wants to do that ever.
Solution: Give stationary AA a distinct advantage over MANPAD: Faster missiles, faster lock, larger splash range/damage. Or reduce the "setuptime" drastically, allowing players to jump in quickly into a prepared stationary AA if a chopper comes in. All of those would make it more attractive. Currently most players see it as a "death trap". At the most it scares the enemy CAS away until it either gets a good spot (UAV...) or a SQL laze on the AA.
The ability to dop flares could be restricted: Less total flares. Longer delay between individual flare drops (=no "spam"). You should be able to divert a missile, but certainly not a staggered barrage from multiple stationary or vehicle AA.


In general, having "more missiles" is not really a big advantage (e.g. AA vehicles, stationary AA). You just need one solid hit to kill a chopper. If you "shotgun" 8 missiles at once, there's a good chance all 8 will be deflected by flares. If you wait between missiles, there's a good chance the chopper will have moved out of the dangerzone already.

Increasing velocity or lock speed is much more efficient. As is reducing sturdiness of choppers.

Frontliner
2015-03-25, 19:03
Rhino;2062496']Like I said in my previous post, I normally don't fire my AA unless I'm pretty damn sure its going to hit, which is why I can achieve around a 90% hit ratio, which isn't a lie.

And how often do you end up not shooting because it's not going to hit? How often are you getting killed before you can even lock on? You holding back because the flares make a hit impossible is - to me anyways - one of the reasons why we complain about the current CAS gameplay. No other asset can negate their own counter to this extend and this is often being reflected by better CAS pilots getting obscene(for PR standards) scores, with a few costly asset kills here and there mixed in.

But even against flare spamming choppers, its possible to find gaps in their "flare shield" if you know how the missiles work and how to use them.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not good at manpads and AA, but even more experienced guys struggle(this is an understatement) with hitting anything.

This is why you need to move to a place the CAS doesn't expect you to be so they don't flare spam before you start trying to lock them. CAS only really flare spam when they go into areas they know have AA, or are likley to have AA, so you need to go outside of that if you really want to get a good shot on them before they can do anything about trying to counter you.

While it sounds like a good idea great in theory, most CAS choppers gain altitude over the main and only drop into visual range when they get a laze or have erected their AA blockade. I'm also questioning the competence of these pilots if they get hit "from the flank" as the lock tone will make the pilot aware of danger regardless. And then he drops a few flares, ascends a bit and then avoids you altogether or asks the CO to scout you out. Great.

viirusiiseli
2015-03-26, 15:34
I would say it was more balanced in 0.98, when the helicopters were faster, flares flew to the direction the chopper was heading and didn't stay up for as long. And the fact that you had 30 flares. I'd say most 1.0 changes for attackhelis were just making it worse.

Making helicopters slow, flares drop straight for the ground and stay up for a longer time means you hover high above enemies and once they fire the flares are already 50m away from the heli, making near misses useless. In 0.98 the near misses made more damage because flares would either stick close to the heli if moving fast or disappear fast when hovering and dropping them below.

This is a problem with jets too aswell, I played Arctic Lion and used the Gopher, against dutch CAS. I kept firing AAs at both the jet and the apache, at the end even 2 gophers against them. First ground to air kill we had was after 35 fired AA missiles. If you have the opportunity to fire 30+ AA missiles at the jet and he still doesn't get even damaged, there's something wrong.

The AA removal change did something similar aswell. Trying to change something but the outcome turned out to be opposite of what it was supposed to be.

Truism
2015-03-30, 14:32
I don't want to be rude about this, but there really is no solution to the air/aa balance in PR without making the whole affair comically unrealistic and unintuitive. In real life, the air/aa game is hideously complicated with layers and layers of threats and countermeasures.

The only direction to take PR in is a simple relationship between AA and air assets where aa provides a broad, and hard detterent to air that has no counter at all except for ground units clearing or suppressing the AA. The game just doesn't have enough mechanical complexity in the engine, or scale in the game to implement make a really satisfactory system. No matter what is done, some section of the community is going to be mad.

Senshi
2015-03-30, 14:37
More suggestions to make CAS more of the surgical tool it should be (especially Hellfires):
- Delay between firing individual rockets. Currently you can fire Hellfires faster than you can empty a G3 magazine. Only necessary for LG mode really. Having a lazed target always should be beneficial over manual guidance

- Lock time on laze targets. Just a 1-2sec delay. Currently the hellfire is well underway before an AA that looks directly at the chopper has a lock. Which is stupid. Or: Reduce lock time for AA missiles. Considering the missile takes time to fly, there's always enough time to drop flares, but it's another step to make AA more powerful.

Less related:
Change smoke grenades to finally be IR opaque. Almost all current-day smoke grenades are opaque in NIR and SWIR (spectrum used by TI), and DEFINITELY does for all vehicle-mounted smoke launchers (e.g. armored vehicles). What's the point in obscuring your tank if the deployed smoke doesn't even cover the thermal imaging of your enemy?

Mats391
2015-03-30, 15:35
Reducing the fire rate is actually a reasonable idea. Shooting the LG missiles that fast is bit of an exploit anyway.
So what would you say: 1 missile per second?
Lockdelay is already 1 second. Dont see a real reason to increase it as it would only make people use LG on laze markers instead of waiting for lock.
IR blocking smoke is coming :)

Spook
2015-03-30, 15:45
Puttin in a delay would only encourage people to use the switch missile trick to shoot faster. I'd rather keep looking at AA and the flares and try find a solution there. The suggestion to lower AA lock time isn't bad, aslong as it does not affect air-air missiles for jets, since these are very balanced atm.

PatrickLA_CA
2015-03-30, 15:51
- Lock time on laze targets. Just a 1-2sec delay. Currently the hellfire is well underway before an AA that looks directly at the chopper has a lock. Which is stupid. Or: Reduce lock time for AA missiles. Considering the missile takes time to fly, there's always enough time to drop flares, but it's another step to make AA more powerful.



This would be good, if we had good view distance because IRL an Apache Longbow can fire a Hellfire at a target up to 8km away. And IG, the AA can see your lockon box far before you see them on the ground.

Truism
2015-03-30, 17:09
Is it possible to readd the old ZSU/Vulcan FOB deployables?

If so, is it possible to readd them and modify them to have a higher minimum traverse as well as a radar system and bullets with behaviour like AA missiles on an alt position? Ie, simulating a ground based radar guided AAA? Since the velocity of the rapid firing, low damage missiles is so high, they would only function if you already aimed near an enemy aircraft, and it would add a layer to IADS that isn't so affected by flares.


This would be cool.

Psyrus
2015-03-30, 17:30
I tend to agree with the above posters, it's an odd situation when something is besting its direct counter. I have always liked to think of games, especially PR as a game of picking the right counter.

Eg:
Enemy have a strong infantry force -> Send armor/bombardment at them
Enemy have armor -> Attack/defend with AT weapons (and have your armor as backup), use CAS
Enemy have CAS up -> Use AA
Enemy has AA up -> Use armor/infantry to destroy it
...etc...

You don't often see tanks rushing at manned AT stations that they know about, so CAS shouldn't feel ballsy enough to take on AA in my opinion, but that's just me. Is it possible to readd the old ZSU/Vulcan FOB deployables?

If so, is it possible to readd them and modify them to have a higher minimum traverse as well as a radar system and bullets with behaviour like AA missiles on an alt position? Ie, simulating a ground based radar guided AAA? Since the velocity of the rapid firing, low damage missiles is so high, they would only function if you already aimed near an enemy aircraft, and it would add a layer to IADS that isn't so affected by flares.I'd love that, but I doubt it's going to happen :)

Mats391
2015-03-30, 18:39
Puttin in a delay would only encourage people to use the switch missile trick to shoot faster. I'd rather keep looking at AA and the flares and try find a solution there. The suggestion to lower AA lock time isn't bad, aslong as it does not affect air-air missiles for jets, since these are very balanced atm.

You mean reducing the fire rate? Switching weapons would have no effect on that and you would not be able to get more than 1 missile per second. Currently you can get 600 missiles per second and that is what makes the switching or spamming on laser so effective. Reducing the splash damage helped already a lot against spamming missiles, but you still see it being done on lasers.

Rabbit
2015-03-30, 19:39
Need MCLOS

rPoXoTauJIo
2015-03-30, 19:42
Puttin in a delay would only encourage people to use the switch missile trick to shoot faster.
Which is also can be fixed by adding weapon-ready delay of 1 second.

Aleon
2015-03-31, 00:04
I personally don't feel like this is that big of a deal. People just don't seem to have the right idea on how to use AA against helicopters. The strela's hit detection is beyond fucked up right now, but I can shoot down a CAS helicopter with a stinger with an average of ~two shots / kill. I generally agree with Truism in that the current system doesn't allow a lot more balance. (We don't even have a radar in PR... Air stuff is really simplified.) Significantly nerfing flares/hp would make using CAS too fragile and too risky. We are kind of stuck with a system that either means helicopters do good vs everything, or they get raped by any and every kind of AA there is.

If you want AA emplacements to be actually threatening instead of annoyance, make them be projectile based instead of missiles. Bullets are always harder to deal with when you are flying.

Senshi
2015-03-31, 09:18
Aleon, we have moved the discussion towards "how to fix", no longer "is there a need to fix?" :)

To enlighten this discussion, a short explanation on the lock range mechanics:
The biggest restriction there is view distance: You can only lock on targets that are inside your view distance. Viewdistance is a "sphere" of fixed distance per map, and it usually extends ~10% beyond the range where the fog thickens to full opacity (which is why you sometimes see tanks or choppers as silhouettes against the sky, but in "fog color").
And as you only can lock on targets that are rendered (= inside view range), both CAS and AA will only be able to lock on targets that are inside that range. CAS has a slight downside when hunting targets without a laze, because it will only be able to discern targets against the ground inside fog range, not view range.

The objective of this discussion is to refine the intended role of CAS as a hard-hitting surgical tool which is highly effective against armor and any kind of lazed target (or even well-reconed fortified infantry), but at the same time allow both infantry and vehicles a realistic counter. Which logically should be AA.


I think it makes a lot of sense to have CAS as a kind of "glass cannon": Every ground vehicle is scared endless of TOW missiles, to the point where you simply don't go somewhere because there MIGHT be a TOW. And: If you see the TOW, you are usually already dead.
CAS can swoop in and just say "Oh, there's an AA emplacement over there trying to kill us. So there must be a FOB nearby. Let's go there and kill them. Flares ftw."

Aleon makes a good point: Currently, bullets are the best counter to CAS, because you can't block them. However, it is ridiculous that they are actually more effective than missile-based systems. I'd propose to simply replace the absolutely ancient and outdated Strela/Igla and Stinger with newer systems, but that is unlikely to happen due to the need for new models and full code for them. "Realistically", modern AA systems (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9K34_Strela-3)(as in: post-1975) wouldn't even give a missile lock warning for CAS, because they use passive seekers (most warners nowadays actually detect the fiery trail of the missile post-launch, not the lock-on). Let alone the many developments that are specifically geared to allow missiles to separate between flares and the actual target.

The simpler solution is to increase effectiveness of the existing means of AA. A reduction in sturdiness for CAS would be great, as it's currently too easy for it to survive a missile hit badly hurt and limp back to base. While bullet-based systems are non-deterrable, they also do very insignificant damage. Even heavy autocannons (30mm) require ~8 hits to take down a CAS. Doesn't sound like much, but it's very hard to hit a moving CAS in the first place. If you are stupid enough to get into range of a tank, it has every right to blow you to bits with a single hit. And if you stay in the range of a 30mm autocannon, it also should deal significant damage to you.

No other vehicle is granted this luxury in resilience. Even tanks more often die to a HAT hit than not, despite their HP being designed to barely withstand it. Since 1.0 even the new "heavy LAT" deals significant damage to a tank if it hits at the side/rear, forcing it to run for repairs.

Check this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oct0OiAz_xo).
At mark 10:45 you can see the gunner spamming missiles vs a BTR. The reduced splash means the BTR survives for some time, but still it's a ridiculous amount of firepower raining down over the course of a few seconds. The entire video is worth a watch, a couple of awesome scenes in there, but also several scenes that show how carelessly CAS can be used currently.


tl;dr:
- Reduce hitpoints a bit (10-15%?) to turn CAS into more of a glass cannon instead of a flying tank
- Increase weapon delay between missiles fired (1 missile per 5 sec?) for self-guided missiles only to make the use of lazes more attractive again.
- Maybe: Reduce flare-spam (limit flare/second rate. Or deploy "flare salvo", then "reload" for x seconds for next salvo, opening a brief window for a well-timed AA missile

That would definitely be enough to both further the reliance of CAS on good intel while retaining their strength in LT mode.

To boost AA:
- Reduce time to missile lock
- Reduce "weapon ready" delay when manning stationary AA

chrisweb89
2015-03-31, 10:11
I would say it was more balanced in 0.98, when the helicopters were faster, flares flew to the direction the chopper was heading and didn't stay up for as long. And the fact that you had 30 flares. I'd say most 1.0 changes for attackhelis were just making it worse.

Making helicopters slow, flares drop straight for the ground and stay up for a longer time means you hover high above enemies and once they fire the flares are already 50m away from the heli, making near misses useless. In 0.98 the near misses made more damage because flares would either stick close to the heli if moving fast or disappear fast when hovering and dropping them below.

This is a problem with jets too aswell, I played Arctic Lion and used the Gopher, against dutch CAS. I kept firing AAs at both the jet and the apache, at the end even 2 gophers against them. First ground to air kill we had was after 35 fired AA missiles. If you have the opportunity to fire 30+ AA missiles at the jet and he still doesn't get even damaged, there's something wrong.

The AA removal change did something similar aswell. Trying to change something but the outcome turned out to be opposite of what it was supposed to be.

Agreed on these points, 0.98 cas and aa was just more fun and rewarding for me, on both sides. Currently as it is now I find myself having to relearn how to play cas and take advantage of the high slow flying aa resistant choppers, and just accept that even with an aenger against a non flaring havok, my 8 missiles will probably miss. Cas has always been very powerful, especially with spotters and uavs, but the current interaction of cas with the ground is one in which they can hang out for long periods of time and really only worry about a guided hat, or tank able to stick his barrel up in the air.

Spook
2015-03-31, 10:51
Check this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oct0OiAz_xo).
At mark 10:45 you can see the gunner spamming missiles vs a BTR. The reduced splash means the BTR survives for some time, but still it's a ridiculous amount of firepower raining down over the course of a few seconds. The entire video is worth a watch, a couple of awesome scenes in there, but also several scenes that show how carelessly CAS can be used currently.



It really depends on the enemy team. If there is not much effort in AA protection you start to care less and do more risky things. There are rounds where you get locked and shot at as soon as you get close to any enemy, and you will have to rely on very good intel, lazes and only do careful dives. Then there are rounds where you realize in the first 10mins that the enemy does not care about you and you can start chilling and fly around and search for targets on your own and be seemingly untouchable.

fecht_niko
2015-03-31, 11:27
It really depends on the enemy team. If there is not much effort in AA protection you start to care less and do more risky things. There are rounds where you get locked and shot at as soon as you get close to any enemy, and you will have to rely on very good intel, lazes and only do careful dives. Then there are rounds where you realize in the first 10mins that the enemy does not care about you and you can start chilling and fly around and search for targets on your own and be seemingly untouchable.

You are right that it can depend on the enemy team. But I've seen much more organised rounds where CAS raped everything (most recent: PAC vs VK on Beirut, VK vs EE on Beirut/Archer...) than CAS being scared.
After squadleading CAS a lot from the ground it is most of the time enough to give the pilots a marker (no laze) on AA positions and they will kill them even before getting locked.

I think virus & Senshi made some very good point about the current situation + how to fix it!

Frontliner
2015-03-31, 12:14
We are kind of stuck with a system that either means helicopters do good vs everything, or they get raped by any and every kind of AA there is.

The purpose of AA to be good against anything flying, so to expect anything less from is a bit weird imo. While admittedly APCs, Tanks and certain other vehicles have Smoke Dispensers to passively counteract getting targeted by handheld AT, being surrounded smoke itself doesn't make you invulnerable, which makes it different in effectiveness from flare(you also only get up to 4 of those).

Choppers can be effective against everything, as they should be, it's just their counters need to be working to equalize the playing field. Virus' idea of faster dropping flares seems like a good starting point.

Frontliner
2015-03-31, 12:20
It really depends on the enemy team. If there is not much effort in AA protection you start to care less and do more risky things. There are rounds where you get locked and shot at as soon as you get close to any enemy, and you will have to rely on very good intel, lazes and only do careful dives. Then there are rounds where you realize in the first 10mins that the enemy does not care about you and you can start chilling and fly around and search for targets on your own and be seemingly untouchable.

Didn't seem like much of a careful approach a few weeks back on Vadso when you and Don raped my FOB with AA that was undetected :( Should I have called 2 MTLB Strela's just to provide an adequate counter when you were just hovering there not giving a shit?

Mongolian_dude
2015-03-31, 19:08
More suggestions to make CAS more of the surgical tool it should be (especially Hellfires):
- Delay between firing individual rockets. Currently you can fire Hellfires faster than you can empty a G3 magazine. Only necessary for LG mode really. Having a lazed target always should be beneficial over manual guidance

The problem with this is that PR Hellfires are already massively less efficient than their irl counterparts, perhaps unrealistically so. For example, it is by no means uncommon for LT missiles to strike a LZR attached to a vehicle and fail to significantly damage it. The current in-game balance rests on the fact that you spam an unrealistic amount of hellfires at a single target to simulate a modern attack helicopter's lethality.

I think the compromise would be to increase their Area of Effect lethality against vehicles by a small margin and implement a 1.5 - 2 second delay between LG missile launch.

LT should receive the same boost to AoE vs Vehicles, but not receive the firing delay.

Would neither be opposed to the idea of having hellfires reload longer on the pad, as a disincentive to the current spam.

Mongolian_dude
2015-04-02, 07:37
mr mongolian how can you say this ?

Can you clarify even just a little bit please?