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PatrickLA_CA
2014-08-19, 18:27
I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but the APCs have become more functional than anti air vehicles when it comes against helicopters.
1. They are too accurate
2. Their gun can look really high up and turn around really fast without losing focus or accuracy

But that is actually not so unrealistic, the real problem is the view distance.
For example in real life an Apache can hit a BMP from a range of 8km with a hellfire, and the BMP won't even have an idea of hit it. But in PR, you have to get to up to 500m close to the APC as well as stay on a low altitude of about 300-700 (depends on map) so that you can see them.
And at that distance, the APCs have superiority.

It has happened numerous times to me to fly at around 300KPH when going to kill an APC and just as soon as my gunner gets the APC in our view range, we are dead by a 2 second burst from a BMP or 30mm BTR/MTLB etc.

Inspektura43
2014-08-19, 19:12
Can't see an incoming change since this is Project Reality and devs are obviously aiming for the highest realism, which is not even possible to get recreated in PR hence the brokenness in our very current patch.

Devs, maybe in real life BMP2M cannon will kill Apache in 2 shots, but also in real life Apache can kill BMP2M from 8 kilometers.
Just think about it,
thanks.

B2P1
2014-08-19, 19:50
There will always be elements of reality that have to be sacrificed to make a well balanced game. It's still a lot easier for an attack helicopter to take out a bmp than it's the other way around. It would be unfair if it was just a flight sim with 90 people acting as clueless targets.

ComradeHX
2014-08-19, 21:30
Can't see an incoming change since this is Project Reality and devs are obviously aiming for the highest realism, which is not even possible to get recreated in PR hence the brokenness in our very current patch.

Devs, maybe in real life BMP2M cannon will kill Apache in 2 shots, but also in real life Apache can kill BMP2M from 8 kilometers.
Just think about it,
thanks.

In-game APC autocannons have already been heavily nerfed in accuracy.

Last time I shot down a chopper with BMP-2M was from HE damage killing the pilot and chopper fell out of sky.

If you are any decent with Attack chopper; it only takes one click to instantly kill any apc.

Inspektura43
2014-08-19, 22:14
Not when the apc can see you 200m before you see him.

PatrickLA_CA
2014-08-19, 23:16
Balancing that would also mean that the Armor squads are going to make sure they have an AAV alongside.

ComradeHX
2014-08-19, 23:44
Not when the apc can see you 200m before you see him.

That's problem with your pilot.

[F|H]Zackyx
2014-08-20, 01:40
That's problem with your pilot.

AAV have recoil (tunguska )

ATGM vehicle have recoil

APC dont

So apc are better at taking aircraft down while AAV and some ATGM vehicle are designed to take down to take down aicraft.
Its easier to take a chopper with a bmp2 than with a tunguska since there is no recoil.

Do you see the problem ?

K4on
2014-08-20, 07:11
Tunguska recoil is still way over the top indeed.

Regarding AHE vs APCs, at least the AHE pilots I know, have taken out far more Opfor APCs like BMPs than the other way around.


but also in real life Apache can kill BMP2M from 8 kilometers.
Just think about it For beginners, that was even possible in 0.7.
Back then, 3d markers were visible 1000m+. So while hiding behind the fow, you just shot at the marker, and with a bit luck and guidance by SQL, your missile hit the target.
As this was quite unfair, cuz fighting an invisible enemy is nearly impossible, and due other reasons, the 3d attack marker range got changed.

Rhino
2014-08-20, 07:35
K4on;2029915']But that is actually not so unrealistic, the real problem is the view distance.
For example in real life an Apache can hit a BMP from a range of 8km with a hellfire, and the BMP won't even have an idea of hit it.

For beginners, that was even possible in 0.7.
Back then, 3d markers were visible 1000m+. So while hiding behind the fow, you just shot at the marker, and with a bit luck and guidance by SQL, your missile hit the target.
As this was quite unfair, cuz fighting an invisible enemy is nearly impossible, and due other reasons, the 3d attack marker range got changed.

That was more of an exploit since in r/l most AA missiles/weapons can reach out beyond 8km and with the "fog of war" exploit, AA weapons couldn't lock onto targets beyond the VD.

The real problem is we simply can't have that VD ingame since the max we could possibly have is 3kms, like on The Falklands, but on any other map performance would be seriously bad on most peoples PCs.

But like you said, most good chopper pilots can easily take out an APC before they can start shooting at them.

ComradeHX
2014-08-20, 09:19
Zackyx;2029896']AAV have recoil (tunguska )

ATGM vehicle have recoil

APC dont

So apc are better at taking aircraft down while AAV and some ATGM vehicle are designed to take down to take down aicraft.
Its easier to take a chopper with a bmp2 than with a tunguska since there is no recoil.

Do you see the problem ?

There isn't a problem.

Again, accuracy of autocannons have been greatly nerfed; you can't even snipe infantry at 200-300m without shooting a burst(which is why certain low-rof british apc is considered to be terrible).

So, assuming both start shooting at same time, ATGM will hit the APC/IFV spot-on while autocannon may or man NOT hit 3 shots. Unless you have a BMP-2 which shoots really fast; but then you are screwed if you miss the first few shots because it overheats very fast.

PatrickLA_CA
2014-08-20, 12:23
The problem is that is much easier to spot a helicopter from the ground which is at the end of the view range because it's a white silhouette in the sky and you don't really need to identify it because there are not as many helicopters flying around, than a ground vehicle which can be dark and also really similar to the terrain (doesn't appear bright on thermals when it's near edge of view range), then you might have to identify it as well in case there are friendly vehicles around, or on some maps such as Black Gold or Burning Sands, a static wreck.

ComradeHX
2014-08-20, 12:33
The problem is that is much easier to spot a helicopter from the ground which is at the end of the view range because it's a white silhouette in the sky and you don't really need to identify it because there are not as many helicopters flying around, than a ground vehicle which can be dark and also really similar to the terrain (doesn't appear bright on thermals when it's near edge of view range), then you might have to identify it as well in case there are friendly vehicles around, or on some maps such as Black Gold or Burning Sands, a static wreck.

You don't HAVE to fly chopper in the open.

Either fly low or really high.

Rhino
2014-08-20, 12:36
The problem is that is much easier to spot a helicopter from the ground which is at the end of the view range because it's a white silhouette in the sky and you don't really need to identify it because there are not as many helicopters flying around, than a ground vehicle which can be dark and also really similar to the terrain (doesn't appear bright on thermals when it's near edge of view range), then you might have to identify it as well in case there are friendly vehicles around, or on some maps such as Black Gold or Burning Sands, a static wreck.

All of which are realistic issues and from a gameplay POV they helps to level the playing field.

Inspektura43
2014-08-20, 12:53
ComradeHX sometimes I wonder if you have really played PR or you just spammed the forums since 2009.

PatrickLA_CA
2014-08-20, 13:46
If you fly low, you will never get kills and you will die really quickly by HMG, Tank, Apc, AAV, anything bigger than 7.62 basically.
If you fly really high, you will get 2-6 kills during the entire round, because nobody cares to laze, or when they do, they laze an enemy fob which has all kinds of AA assets on it but you only get told there's like 2 guys on it guys go bomb it.

The best way to do CAS is to search for your own targets, and it works pretty well until all of a sudden you get hit by a BMP2/3 or 30mm MTLB and die in 2 shots while flying at 300km/h because they can aim and trace you really easily, and do ridiculous amount of damage regardless of where they hit you.

IMO, at least for me, AA and AAVs are not even a threat when flying an attack helicopter, or even a trans helicopter, because they are useless 90% of the time, unless they are all stacked in one location and spam all of their rockets at you, but APCs you don't even know when they are shooting at you, or when you know you are already dead.

UTurista
2014-08-20, 15:11
The best way to do CAS is to search for your own targets
And we have a winner.

So basically your whining because you can't have those 200 kills, instead you get killed... I agree all weapons should be nerfed because they kill me.

PR is meant to be played with teamwork, if you balance it in favor of lone wolfs you get BF2 vanilla, so just let it go no need to whine anymore.

Curry
2014-08-20, 15:15
Your post is absurd Cobra, play more INF.

Curry.

Inspektura43
2014-08-20, 15:18
Tactical infantry whore inbound, over.

PatrickLA_CA
2014-08-20, 15:21
I do play enough Infantry, and I play CAS as well.

I've never wanted to have 200 kills nor tried to. I'm just saying that most of the time you will get 2 or 3 lazes for CAS during the entire round. If you don't look for your own targets, then you will sit on the carrier for the whole round.

That's like telling the Tanks to stay in their base until someone asks them to come kill an enemy tank.

And no, all weapons shouldn't be nerfed because they kill me, but in the current situation, you could remove AAVs from the game files and save some size for next update since they are replaced by APCs.

ComradeHX
2014-08-20, 15:25
ComradeHX sometimes I wonder if you have really played PR or you just spammed the forums since 2009.

I only played PR since 0.86.

If you fly low, you will never get kills and you will die really quickly by HMG, Tank, Apc, AAV, anything bigger than 7.62 basically.
If you fly really high, you will get 2-6 kills during the entire round, because nobody cares to laze, or when they do, they laze an enemy fob which has all kinds of AA assets on it but you only get told there's like 2 guys on it guys go bomb it.

The best way to do CAS is to search for your own targets, and it works pretty well until all of a sudden you get hit by a BMP2/3 or 30mm MTLB and die in 2 shots while flying at 300km/h because they can aim and trace you really easily, and do ridiculous amount of damage regardless of where they hit you.

IMO, at least for me, AA and AAVs are not even a threat when flying an attack helicopter, or even a trans helicopter, because they are useless 90% of the time, unless they are all stacked in one location and spam all of their rockets at you, but APCs you don't even know when they are shooting at you, or when you know you are already dead.

Low as in behind hills and only pop up to fire a hellfire or two when friendlies spotted enemy vehicles...etc.

Not hovering directly above enemy machinegun...

You are getting killed for flying around aimlessly... If people know you stick around for very long; they would have the time to use a number of ways to kill you. Attack Helicopter != flying tank(that's what Huey is for).

So what I am seeing is that you are complaining about getting killed for searching for enemies on your own while not waiting for any info from SL of other squad because you don't trust them/they don't need you.

How terrible; PR is about teamwork, if you go out there on your own...you get killed. Working as intended.

rodrigoma
2014-08-20, 15:26
And no, all weapons shouldn't be nerfed because they kill me, but in the current situation, you could remove AAVs from the game files and save some size for next update since they are replaced by APCs.

ok, present what you think should be buffed for aav's.
as according to you they are useless right now and apc's are the greatest threat to a helicopter.

knowing that the view distance for the maps can not be increased.
you can reduce accuracy and power of the apc guns.

then what?

MoulinKiller
2014-08-20, 15:28
TBH, i'm more worried about being sniped by a tank.

I've never really run into a situation where an APC tried to shoot me, mainly because a hellfire landed on top of it before it even saw the chopper.
Pro tip:
1. Rely on intel from com and SL.
2. Come from above (dive) because the bmp will most definitely not look straight up in the sky while being stationary.
3. Hit it while its driving.
4. Make sure to hit it (...)
5. ???
6. Profit!

//edit: I forgot the most important step, thanks b2p1 for reminding me.

B2P1
2014-08-20, 15:40
You forgot the most important step...

Step 5: ???
Step 6: Profit.

WeeD-KilleR
2014-08-20, 15:54
CAS in its current form is over powered as fuck already. CAS should be something that only should be able to succeed with help from the ground: Intel & Lases. But that's not given anymore (at least for Gunships). Any decent pilot&gunner combo will kill an apc before it has the chance on attacking you.


The issue around CAS in my POV is that manpads and stationary AAs are next to useless. Only AAVs have a chance against any form of CAS soley because they can spam 4 or more missles at once. Less missles can easily be outflared by the pilot. The joke is that a HAT is a better AA weapon than a manpad.

Just ask yourself the question:

-As a pilot, do you fear manpads/stationary AA?
-As a crewman, do you fear ATs?

But of course all the usual CAS dudes never adress this issue....


So my conclusion: Do NOT change the APC vs CAS combat. Make CAS fear AAs and make them powerfull when there is no AA around and they are backed up by the team. Stop making CAS (specially gunships) a two-man job.

MoulinKiller
2014-08-20, 16:10
manpads aint useless, I killed a chinook once :D

From my POV Cas is only as good as the intel they get.
OFC you can fly around on low altitude and completely rape the ennemy the team (best ex: Beirut, the layout with cas or RUS in the beginning) but this can be avoided with hats,manpads,apcs,...
People seem to forget to look up int the air from time to time.

If I get locked, i scream like a little girl and dont go near that again.
I know that it won't necessarily kill me but I still have huge respect towards AA emplacements of any kind.
Mandpads and stationary AAs are not useless. Flares make them seem useless, I mean that's what flares are there for right?

AA Vehicles are a high threat to CAS aswell.
Best ex: Stormer! Just unload 500 aa missiles at the same time and the chopper is dead, or atleast scared for the rest of his life.
Hide your tunguska, wait for cas to go rtb after a run, SPAM THAT CANNON = Profit.

There are ways to kill cas. And I personally fear AA the most (don't forget quad-cannons, aka the pilots nightmare)

atom9[CH]
2014-08-20, 16:37
Everything is good atm. Just give the choppers a bit more speed that we can reload faster and keep raping the enemy team.

|atom

MoulinKiller
2014-08-20, 16:46
;2030008']Just give the choppers a bit more speed that we can reload faster and keep raping the enemy team.


uhm. no. :duh:
You said it yourself, everything is good atm.

atom9[CH]
2014-08-20, 18:25
uhm. no. :duh:
You said it yourself, everything is good atm.

and? Problem Mr. Moulinkiller? Btw we are not hacking just saying, I heard once that we are hackers from a 3dAC guy because we have games with 100 kills in CAS.

B2P1
2014-08-20, 18:29
uhm. no. :duh:
You said it yourself, everything is good atm.

I wouldn't mind the Hind's flight model to be adjusted a bit. Or make some transport choppers (that currently perform better than attack helis) a lot harder to fly.

Heh, that's funny I was searching for a video to prove my point and I ended up on the one you made. :)

MoulinKiller
2014-08-20, 18:43
;2030023']and? Problem Mr. Moulinkiller? Btw we are not hacking just saying, I heard once that we are hackers from a 3dAC guy because we have games with 100 kills in CAS.

And why exactly is this thread the right place to discuss that?
Leave the offtopic out of here.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Heh, that's funny I was searching for a video to prove my point and I ended up on the one you made.

haha nice :) Did it prove your point? :D

PatrickLA_CA
2014-08-20, 18:45
Well, the only way to kill a helicopter with AA/AAV is if it's flying directly towards you and you spam all of your rockets on it.
I don't know how it can be fixed, AAs seem to have been bugged or screwed up after .98 because it was not so hard to kill aircraft with them then.
What I suggest for the APCs is to lower the speed they can turn their turret around maybe?

CAS works well when there's a decent commander and squadleaders who relay info to the team and put up lazes, but most of the times Mumble squad radio is silent.

Every CAS member loves to play with a team that communicates because they know exactly what and where it is. But if you don't get any intel for more than 15 minutes you can't just stay in mainbase and wait half of the round to kill one APC or FOB.
I haven't seen a single CAS crew wait when they don't have targets. Everybody flies on the edge of the view range and searches for enemy assets to destroy.


Low as in behind hills and only pop up to fire a hellfire or two when friendlies spotted enemy vehicles...etc.

Not hovering directly above enemy machinegun...



Well, you probably haven't been in CAS too much, otherwise you'd know that as soon as you pop up, the guy in a 1337 Snip3r squad who stole a HAT kit and isn't even on Mumble has already sent his missile your way.

B2P1
2014-08-20, 18:54
haha nice :) Did it prove your point? :D

No... You were doing good in it. :( Nah, the armed one is the best attack heli in my opinion. But the Mi-8 is overperforming.

Well, the only way to kill a helicopter with AA/AAV is if it's flying directly towards you and you spam all of your rockets on it.


What were you going to do with the remaining rockets anyways? Too long has the sky rained upon us, now there's a way to return the favour.

MoulinKiller
2014-08-20, 18:56
No... You were doing good in it. :(
Haha, thats what i like to hear :15_cheers

But yes, the armed one is just very, armed! And he's very good at being armed :D

[F|H]Zackyx
2014-08-20, 20:53
http://i.imgur.com/IEazEsw.png

This what an apc gunner see when the apache is at the edge of view distance while in the gunner site you dont see anything. This is one of the issues

PatrickLA_CA
2014-08-20, 23:28
That's exactly what I was tying to say with my initial post, maybe I didn't explain it too good.

ComradeHX
2014-08-20, 23:43
Every CAS member loves to play with a team that communicates because they know exactly what and where it is. But if you don't get any intel for more than 15 minutes you can't just stay in mainbase and wait half of the round to kill one APC or FOB.
I haven't seen a single CAS crew wait when they don't have targets. Everybody flies on the edge of the view range and searches for enemy assets to destroy.



Well, you probably haven't been in CAS too much, otherwise you'd know that as soon as you pop up, the guy in a 1337 Snip3r squad who stole a HAT kit and isn't even on Mumble has already sent his missile your way.

Nothing to do as CAS? Fly trans. No trans needed? Play infantry. No infantry needed? Alt+f4 because you are waste of a slot on server.

If you get HAT-sniped often in your chopper; it means you need to stop flying straight at one infantry while missing every shot.

So what I'm seeing is this: you refuse to sit in base, you refuse to use cover, you refuse to AVOID aimlessly flying in the open "searching" for enemies...therefore APC must be nerfed?

PatrickLA_CA
2014-08-21, 00:13
I think you should read better before writing such replies.

WeeD-KilleR
2014-08-21, 00:36
Zackyx;2030044']http://i.imgur.com/IEazEsw.png

This what an apc gunner see when the apache is at the edge of view distance while in the gunner site you dont see anything. This is one of the issues

A tank is a bigger threat to that gunship than an APC can ever been at that distance. Since the APC gun usually has deviation and a fair amount of bullet drop. A shell fired from a tank hasnt.

PatrickLA_CA
2014-08-21, 01:15
Yeah a tank would be able to take out that chopper easily if he is a bit on a slope so the gun can aim higher.
IMO the problem is that the turrets turn fast enough to be able to trace a chopper flying at 300kph

ComradeHX
2014-08-21, 02:08
I think you should read better before writing such replies.

Apparently you just cannot write.

Rabbit
2014-08-21, 03:07
This thread has gotten out of hand, its turned into not much more than attacks on other forum members, closed.