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K4on
2014-03-19, 18:43
This is how strong the current PR Air ATGMs are:
Lt40BQh98Oc

We currently have a discussion in the team section, but I am also curious of what our community thinks about it?

I personally dislike the low splash from a gameplay POV though, as I had quite a lot akward moments when attacked by a chopper and still managed to kill it with my tank/apc. On the other hand, CAS Pilots can reach quite high K/Ds and can wipe a full team if they are good. So in terms of balancing and gameplay, do you think the current system should stay, or should the splash damage rather be increased? How do our CAS pilots rate this from their gameplay POV?

GlaDi
2014-03-19, 18:47
http://static2.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/As+a+necrophiliac+I+approve+of+this+post+_59aa465e 535377fa1e98220835b502f3.jpg

Tank ones should look the same...

Psyrus
2014-03-19, 19:02
K4on;1991827']So in terms of balancing and gameplay, do you think the current system should stay, or should the splash damage rather be increased? How do our CAS pilots rate this from their gameplay POV?

Do we care what the other 96% of the server thinks (the people who aren't playing CAS)? I love the low splash from a gameplay POV, since it means that the CAS choppers have to rely on teamwork, lazes and cautious/slow gameplay rather than being able to slaughter things on the ground due to big splash damage.

I feel like it brings them back in line with other assets.

sirfstar
2014-03-19, 19:21
have to rely on lazes
Which does not work as intended most of the time.
Haven't tried it for a long time though, does it still sticks on a random bunch of air nearby the vehicle resulting with inability to kill it with LT missiles? If no then low splash is perfectly fine.

MADsqirrel
2014-03-19, 21:23
I am not a CAS pilot, but I think they need, at least, a slight buff.
Jets can only work with Lazes as it is and do not have guided rockets (except harrier) but a lot other weapons to engage enemy armor.
CAS choppers are weak against armor ATM because their only weapon ARE the guided rockets. They should be able to fight enemy armor, even without laze so a splash radius buff would be good.

Prevtzer
2014-03-19, 22:54
It's good as it is, if you hit right next to armor there will be smoke everywhere and they won't be able see anything/ engage you so it's all good.

Dude_Nukem
2014-03-20, 00:28
@Prevtzer: unless they got thermal, right? ITS better to take out the target imo. (Looks like im bashing you, ac. more threads, but I'm trying not to. Sorry maine:))

I think its hella fine. In comparing the amount of hellfires it got and ammo on Rockets and main gun plus the damage it can do, its quite a killing machine already imo. When used properly ofc., which is quite common these days, I guess.

Hellfires are not weak at all, it just requires some "skill" to take out a target. Its about timing aswell, if the target is stationary it will be an easier target ofc.

Also, I like the cas got to hit the target right on to do max damage. This will bring a bit of more "skill" in zee game. Right now its like: "hell ,im going to fire this missile at that Guy overthere, because I got 99 rockets left anyway" or when missing a vehicle. I am exaggerating ofc. but I think that comes quite a bit across with the current mindset. (Which these missiles cost around 10k each?). Also the main gun on the Havok for example is very strong, quite big splash damage imo. Dunno about the rest of the cas and their main gun, but I think: "het is geen kattenpis". A Dutch saying;) which means "Its no catpee", which says: its not something to mess around with:).

DC_K
2014-03-20, 00:43
I consider myself a great CAS pilot/gunner. This perspective will be about CAS v. armor pieces.

From my experience with talented chopper gunners, I believe there is a problem with the current missile system. There's been many instances where my gunner would shoot a direct missile onto an armored target and it would not kill it nor disable it, even when stationary. When this happens, the armor piece usually drives off laughing at us while we waste all our missiles on trying to kill it.. it's crazy.

It's important to balance game-play and skill, because we don't want to have inexperienced CAS crews killing everything on the map, nor experienced CAS crews killing nothing. Having said that, I think that the splash radius needs to be buffed a bit. A direct missile should kill an armor piece and a few splash missiles (3-4?) should be enough to at least disable one. However, I am inexperienced with how missiles work in real life against armor pieces, so I'm not exactly sure how it should work, but the current system definitely needs to be worked on. Good thing you brought this up, it is an important subject.

prWARs DC_K

UTurista
2014-03-20, 00:50
If I'm not mistaken Rhino did a vote about Splash damage and the winner was something around 2-3 LGs to kill a tank in ~5m, which I think its a good balance.

Even though I don't like gunning/flying CAS and hate them when they kill ma title tank, the video showed 12 LGs being fired to an APC which is absurd.

Again between 2-5 (APC-Tank) LGs combined with the low speed choppers have, should be a good compromise.

Tequila
2014-03-20, 02:04
Another thing to take into consideration is damage to the crewmen. I can think of 2 instances off the top of my head. The first was in a BTR on Pavlovsk where we were attacked by cas huey hydras. No direct hits but both me and my gunner were killed. The BTR was unscratched. The 2nd was in a tank on Sbeneh where a bombcar exploded about 30 yards away. My gunner and myself both died, the tank was fine.

Daniel
2014-03-20, 03:35
Splash-damage on armored vehicles should definitely NOOOOT be increased, as IN REAL LIFE the Hellfire rockets have a 9kg rather high-explosive-combined-tandem anti-armor shaped-charge-warhead, which directs the damage exactly to the FRONT of the missile (NOSE of missile does most damage on impact-point!!) SO, the Hellfire (or all LGM from AttckHelos) is an anti-tank weapon for DIRECT HIT, and the MG from the gunner is suited against "soft" targets. :)

bren
2014-03-20, 04:36
There aren't that many "phenomenal" cas pilots out there, and although they do get a somewhat decent K/D I believe it would be nice to throwback an old .98 perk, but not as extreme.. As much as I love the ATGM's I believe they aren't that splash effective, I believe the DEVTeam has it right as far as anti armor, but there have been case where I have come close to taking out a full squad with a couple ATGM's but they get away almost unscratched because the splash is so low on them.

Roque_THE_GAMER
2014-03-20, 06:45
well, just make the canons more useful, they seems pretty weak especially the Apache, make the gunner only use atgms only against vehicles and constructions maybe reduce the canon spread or the overheat and more explosive radios.

Inspektura43
2014-03-20, 07:22
The hellfire splash damage doesnt matter, its already incredibly easy to get direct hit on everything.
If you cant kill it its your pilots fault for not flying steady enough.
I still demand on bringing back the old hellfires trail tho, please .

It's good as it is, if you hit right next to armor there will be smoke everywhere and they won't be able see anything/ engage you so it's all good.

This ^

@Prevtzer: unless they got thermal, right? ITS better to take out the target imo.

Smoke and dust still get rendered even with thermal

Murphy
2014-03-20, 07:47
I think it makes sense that you are hitting the ground next to the APC and doing little damage, but that many missiles is excessive. I have had my share of time gunning in choppers (mostly sareema) and I believe the ATGMs are alright how that are. The missiles are still very effective when you don't rely on LT, that adds to the balance versus ground targets.

You can no longer rely on spamming missiles on a lase, you might have to look at your target and sometimes even guide the ATGM yourself. I still see good CAS squads getting high KDRs, so I'm unsure how many people actually have a problem with the current state. The cannons are great versus infantry, even the Hind cannon can rack up kills with good coordination, ATGMs having low splash keeps them from being the only effective weapon.

Daniel
2014-03-20, 07:52
Oh, I forgot to mention, the missile splash radius vs. infantry is laaarge enough imo (assuming nothing got changed since 0.98 on that value!! :)

Qside
2014-03-20, 08:47
It's good as it is now, but as inspektura says the old trail effect is preferabel.

Dude_Nukem
2014-03-20, 09:30
Smoke and dust still get rendered even with thermal

Alright, I thought so. But wasn't sure about this.

atom9[CH]
2014-03-20, 15:46
ATGMs are ok!, because you have to hit it directly and that is good for the gunner and also fair for the APC/Tank crew.

Would be nice if you could ask the same with the gunner cannon, because there I have a diffrent opinion in comparison with the Dev's.

Ghostwolf
2014-03-20, 21:15
Yes, ATGMs are cool with 0% splash damage vs armored targets.
Otherwise, they will be abused with the ATGM spam bug and IMO it makes more sense, to have to hit an armored target directly with armor piercing ammunition.

The cannon is good aswell. Lots of splash damage, but only vs soft+delicate targets.

The current system makes sense and is good!

Rhino
2014-03-21, 06:20
;1992183']Yes, ATGMs are cool with 0% splash damage vs armored targets.

Just to be clear it isn't 0% splash damage, they do have splash damage that kills infantry within a small radius (something like 5m off the top of my head) and will badly damage unarmoured vehicles, but to armoured ones they will do very little damage at all, depending on the thickness of the armour ofc.

Ason
2014-03-21, 09:45
Rhino;1992266']Just to be clear it isn't 0% splash damage, they do have splash damage that kills infantry within a small radius (something like 5m off the top of my head) and will badly damage unarmoured vehicles, but to armoured ones they will do very little damage at all, depending on the thickness of the armour ofc.

That's how it should be imo. If they are used against armor in real life, the projectile is designed in a way to take out the target with direct hits right? I mean much of the effect of it is lost if hitting the ground beside the tank no?
If anything I think the radius for infantry should be increased to 10m.

Ghostwolf
2014-03-21, 09:56
Rhino;1992266']Just to be clear it isn't 0% splash damage, they do have splash damage that kills infantry within a small radius (something like 5m off the top of my head) and will badly damage unarmoured vehicles, but to armoured ones they will do very little damage at all, depending on the thickness of the armour ofc.

Well that splash damage is absolutely comprehensible.
But it is still close to 0% vs armored targets, right?
Or how many rockets do you need to kill a tank with close, but no direct hits?

Rhino
2014-03-21, 10:20
That's how it should be imo. If they are used against armor in real life, the projectile is designed in a way to take out the target with direct hits right? I mean much of the effect of it is lost if hitting the ground beside the tank no?
If anything I think the radius for infantry should be increased to 10m.

Indeed this is my view too, other than increasing inf damage since if the missile hits the ground, most of the warheads power is directed into the ground and only the resulting rebounding blast from that is what dose the damage which is only a small faction of the warheads power since most of that was used up in digging a hole.

;1992290']Well that splash damage is absolutely comprehensible.
But it is still close to 0% vs armored targets, right?
Or how many rockets do you need to kill a tank with close, but no direct hits?

Actually your right, the explosion dose zero damage to tanks and even most APCs currently...

Ghostwolf
2014-03-21, 10:40
Rhino;1992292']Actually your right, the explosion dose zero damage to tanks and even most APCs currently...

And that is in my opinion a good thing. Since if they do splashdamage vs armored targets, you can use ingame bugs to get an unbalanced advantage.

But the splashdamage vs soft targets seems to be comprehensible and balanced.

So overall, the Devs did a good job with the CAS helicopters.

viirusiiseli
2014-03-21, 11:44
The direct-hit requirement is good, but needing 2 shots to kill a tank with them is not good imo. The hellfires could be buffed a little bit against infantry aswell.

Daniel
2014-03-21, 15:09
If anything I think the radius for infantry should be increased to 10m.

I an pretty sure it is that, but at least more than the 5m mentioned by Rhino, cause I am sure the hellfire warheads have some deadly pellets to kill infantry on at least 10m... (also experienced in PR...)


And yes, 2 Hellfires for a tank is NOT okay (1 missile kills).

viirusiiseli
2014-03-21, 15:27
< deleted, useless content >

Rhino
2014-03-22, 00:03
The direct-hit requirement is good, but needing 2 shots to kill a tank with them is not good imo. The hellfires could be buffed a little bit against infantry aswell.

Not 100% true, it depends where on the tank a Hellfire hits.

If it hits the rear or top of the tank, its dead instantly. If it hits the side then its got a second or so before it blows. If it hits the front however, its HP is very, very slightly above its critical damage point, meaning that even if it just drives drives over some rough ground badly ingame (before or after being hit) its probably going to be in critical and have a few secs before it blows and the chopper could just give it even a spurt of its cannon to finish it off if its full HP before hit.

To go into more detail in this:

A Main Battle Tank (MBT) has 1700 HP
And goes into Critical Damage at 260 HP (when it starts to burn/bleed, loosing HP at 16 HP/Sec)
A Front hit with a Hellfire Missile 1430 damage, leaving 270 HP, 10 HP (which is nothing) above critical damage, and assuming it lost those 10 HPs, before being hit, from terrain or w/e, the crew would have 16.25 secs to bail before it blew.
A Side hit with a Hellfire Missile 1650 damage, leaving 50 HP, which is in critical damage leaving 3.125 seconds for the crew to bail.
A Rear/Top hit with a Hellfire Missile 1760 damage, resulting in -60 HP, which means it blows up instantly after being hit, giving the crew no chance to get out.
However if hit by a Maverick Missile or pretty much any other jet AtG missile, its dead where ever it hits instantly by a long way.


As such this just encourages trying to hit the target in its weak spot, even if hitting it is hard enough already for some it just gives a bit more skill involved, mainly from the side you attack the target from :D

I hope that clears that up :)

I an pretty sure it is that, but at least more than the 5m mentioned by Rhino, cause I am sure the hellfire warheads have some deadly pellets to kill infantry on at least 10m... (also experienced in PR...)


The file says 12m radius but I'm unsure where the full off is but yes in all likelihood without testing, if your in a 10m radius of this going off on foot, your going to be killed.

Also don't be confused by the different types of Hellfire missiles out there. Wile some afaik are designed to kill infantry with a massive blast, the one we are portraying in PR is the version that is meant to destroy armoured vehicles. As such it doesn't, to my knowledge have any "pellets" in them, the shrapnel that's thrown up after the blast from hitting the ground, comes from the ground from the rebond of the explosion digging a massive hole into the ground since the missile is meant to direct all its energy into defeating tank armour.

[F|H]Zackyx
2014-03-22, 14:15
I think the best solution is to give 2 Kind of missile for the gunner of atack chopers thermobaric One for Infantry (Hellfire MAC / Ataka-V F ) and the regular Heat for Anti Armor. Also maybe you could Give a limited number of Heat Hydras/S8 (like 10 ) for the pilot.

The best solution i think is to give Multiple choices to crew like we have in tanks and apcs because one missile for everything is not good, and i think the Heat missile should deal more splash damage to light vehicules ( Jeeps, wheeld apcs ... )

Rhino
2014-03-22, 14:28
Zackyx;1992612']I think the best solution is to give 2 Kind of missile for the gunner of atack chopers thermobaric One for Infantry (Hellfire MAC / Ataka-V F ) and the regular Heat for Anti Armor. Also maybe you could Give a limited number of Heat Hydras/S8 (like 10 ) for the pilot.

The best solution i think is to give Multiple choices to crew like we have in tanks and apcs because one missile for everything is not good, and i think the Heat missile should deal more splash damage to light vehicules ( Jeeps, wheeld apcs ... )

If you could somehow designate the load out you had before you took off, I would agree that wouldn't be so bad BUT being able to pick between the two when above the target without having to sacrifice one or the other in advance isn't really realistic or good for gameplay either.

As such, having the missiles vs armour and cannon vs inf/light vehicles is more than enough for the chopper to choose between on the fly anyways.

[F|H]Zackyx
2014-03-22, 14:47
For the russian chopper it won't be a problem since we are 16 missile we could easily have 8 to 5 thermobarics missiles and 8 to 11 Heats.

It might be a problem Atack choppers with 8 missiles but i think we could give at least 2 thermobaric and 6 heat, because when im a gunner i always engage infantry at least 1 once or twice per sortie with my missile because hiting inf on the move with the canon is pretty hard.

And you could give to the hind some S8 heat rocket because it has a huge number of rockets but its pretty hard to kill apc with it
Is it possible to have to different "magazine" in chopper like in tank or apc ?

Rhino
2014-03-22, 15:04
I may be wrong but I don't believe that different types of missile are mixed on the same chopper. At least I've never heard of it being done.

And again, I can only see us having such a load out on maps vs only infantry and not any armoured vehicles, and even then to my knowledge in Afghanistan Apaches are equipped with the normal AT hellfires as they cause less collateral damage, as well as able to penetrate deep into a compound building.


Anyways your going really off topic with this as this topic is about the missiles vs armour, not vs infantry.

Professorson
2014-04-21, 09:36
Self proclaimed greatest gunner ever here..

just played pr for first time ever since 1.0 came out and i think its pretty balanced, nerfing of Hellfires seems to bring helis into line giving the uselessness of AA..

and I'm enjoying the helis without AA Missiles definitely puts much more of a focus on ground attacks.

goodwork devs

_Fizzco_
2014-04-21, 13:45
Self proclaimed greatest gunner ever here..

just played pr for first time ever since 1.0 came out and i think its pretty balanced, nerfing of Hellfires seems to bring helis into line giving the uselessness of AA..

and I'm enjoying the helis without AA Missiles definitely puts much more of a focus on ground attacks.

goodwork devs

ZOMG come say hi on TS <3

Roque_THE_GAMER
2014-04-21, 14:30
Self proclaimed greatest gunner ever here..

just played pr for first time ever since 1.0 came out and i think its pretty balanced, nerfing of Hellfires seems to bring helis into line giving the uselessness of AA..

and I'm enjoying the helis without AA Missiles definitely puts much more of a focus on ground attacks.

goodwork devs

Nope, i am the best gunner in PR and i agreed :p except we still hunting the enemy CAS Chopper but now is more a Cannon to Cannon fight since hydras are to inaccurate.

Professorson
2014-04-23, 13:39
ZOMG come say hi on TS <3

inbox me the deeeeeets , i'll come by on the weekend !

[F|H]Zackyx
2014-05-16, 12:12
K4on;2005903']Feel free to discuss here. A lot people claim that CAS ATGMs are fine in general:
http://www.realitymod.com/forum/f112-pr-bf2-tales-front/127771-current-cas-atgms.html

Project Reality v1.1.6.0 Saaremaa full round : CAS cobra - YouTube (http://youtu.be/kxEVhWUCMn8?t=27m38s)
Is this normal ? ( watch until 30:50)

I shot 2 well aimed Hellfires at and AA emplacement still up ! I come back i do a long gun run on it still up , i come back a third time and only then its down , for TOWS its the same they are insanely strong . Splash is fine for Inf but for emplacements a light vehiculs its realy realy bad you should be able to kill emplacement and to people maning much more quicker.
You miss an unarmored truck / jeep by 1 cm and its drive no problem what so ever its insane the level of skill you need to achieve in order to hit a jeep moving at full speed with 100 ping.
Some time i have to shoot 6/7 ATGM at one jeep/truck because there is no splash and i have a 100 ping this realy bad.

The canon damage is realy bad also.

Daniel
2014-05-16, 18:54
Stop complaining, Zackyx, I am sorry for your 100 ping of course, but this is a problem on your side when playing on EU server and having no ping of 20-60 or so...

Missile damage vs. vehicles fine imo (as mentioned already previously direct hits on heavy vehicles needed is realistic, and light vehicles take some splash damage), also the ATGM splash damage against infantry is fine, as I recently was hiding behind a wall (as infantry), Havoc shot ATGM, missed me by 20 m and I did not get any scratch, as it was just a safe distance.


Zackyx, all you have to do (and I can imagine it is not that easy!!) with your 100 ping is to aim slightly AHEAD of fast moving vehicles (in order for hitbox to register the hit)! :/



And cannon damage vs. infantry is fine, not sure how much damage it does vs. any vehicle.

[F|H]Zackyx
2014-05-16, 19:14
Did you watch what i linked ?

How can you call this fine ?
You think i dont know how to properly lead a target ? did you watch what i linked ?
Canon do no damage watch what i sent.

Daniel
2014-05-16, 23:23
Still watching, am around 30 min. mark now... nothing so far...

[F|H]Zackyx
2014-05-17, 09:26
Dude i gave you a link it start at 27:30 (http://youtu.be/kxEVhWUCMn8?t=27m38s) and watch until 31:00

Psyrus
2014-05-17, 09:54
Zackyx;2006097']Dude i gave you a link it start at 27:30 (http://youtu.be/kxEVhWUCMn8?t=27m38s) and watch until 31:00

I watched that time period and didn't see anything wrong with it. If you'll recall, FOBs and assets were buffed in 1.0 due to their weak nature in previous versions.

The ATGMs were changed to reflect the shaped charge nature, as in their throw up a lot of dirt and maybe some rocks, but how much is a rock going to do to an armored jeep? As you saw, the direct 20mm rounds on the emplacements and fob were fine, and direct hits do huge damage... so use lazes and cannons for maximum effect.

viirusiiseli
2014-05-17, 10:19
Psyrus;2006101']I watched that time period and didn't see anything wrong with it. If you'll recall, FOBs and assets were buffed in 1.0 due to their weak nature in previous versions.

The ATGMs were changed to reflect the shaped charge nature, as in their throw up a lot of dirt and maybe some rocks, but how much is a rock going to do to an armored jeep? As you saw, the direct 20mm rounds on the emplacements and fob were fine, and direct hits do huge damage... so use lazes and cannons for maximum effect.

So you're saying a bunch of sand bags are supposed to stop an AT missile? In the video zacky direct hit the AA and it did not go down.

Psyrus
2014-05-17, 10:26
So you're saying a bunch of sand bags are supposed to stop an AT missile? In the video zacky direct hit the AA and it did not go down.

Psyrus;2006101']As you saw, the direct 20mm rounds on the emplacements and fob were fine, and direct hits do huge damage... so use lazes and cannons for maximum effect.

I guess you can decide for yourself what I'm saying.

If you would like to file a bug report with an attached video in controlled conditions, I'm sure one of the materials-specialists (like K4on) will be able to weigh in.

[F|H]Zackyx
2014-05-17, 10:40
So if i understand you are sayng that in real life if you miss a unarmored Jeep with ATGM by 1/2 meters shrapnel wont kills the crew / shred the tires. And that Atgm wont destroy batteries, optics of AA , Tows..
And i never said that canon damage is fine and its not.

To kill the AA emplacement i shot a Close ATGM 1/2 meters miss , 1 direct hit , 1 long burst of canon , and a small burst of canon you real think Strella batteries and optics and skin is armoured ?
Irl one direct hit of 20 mm or just the shrepnels will render completely useless the missile/ tows , but its a game and im not asking for this but something less op.

[F|H]Zackyx
2014-05-17, 10:55
http://youtu.be/VOT2i-zNHW8?t=1m5s

This is what 6/7 30mm can do to a unarmored jeep ( notice their is only 1/2 direct hits) and 4 dead/criticaly wounded people.

Look how shreded the car is, do you think and AA position / Tows can stand that kind of damages ?

If you want i can give more videos (but they are graphic) where you see car hellfire landing close to civis car and getting heavily damaged.
Theire is multiple video of Apaches destroying mortar, spg , dshk positions with canon only with 1 burst.

Mats391
2014-05-17, 13:12
The deployables got increased survive ability against splash damage in recent updates. This is mainly due to them consisting mostly of blast resistant materials (dirt, sandbags, metal...) and only very small amount of sensitive things like optics and ammunition. That is why close misses wont do a lot of damage to them.
In your video i would rate all missile to be close misses and no direct hit. The closest you got was hitting the dirt/sandbags and those take reduced damage. I can however see that they might be a bit too resistant currently. Mostly i notice this when crewing an AAVP and trying to get rid of a TOW with the Mk19, it takes forever.
Rest assured the crew in open vehicles or emplacements will suffer damage from explosions. So even if you cant blow if up easily, you will get rid of all personal close to it.

[F|H]Zackyx
2014-05-17, 14:36
Mats391;2006156']
Rest assured the crew in open vehicles or emplacements will suffer damage from explosions. So even if you cant blow if up easily, you will get rid of all personal close to it.

The paradox is that if i do a "Close misse" i will kill the people digging or hiding on the emplacement but not the guy inside manning it. Which is worst thing that can happen to a 1.00 CAS crew because of the new effects you have a huge ball of dirt around that emplacement you can't see him anymore , which make it impossible to score a direct hit on a emplacement with a radius of 1 meter but the guy in the emplacement has no problem to find you since he can see the green box thru to Huge dirt/smoke clood.

Just the Blast wave should kill them


Even when they are precise, however, casualties and damage are not necessarily confined to the specific individual, vehicle, or structure targeted. The blast radius from a Hellfire missile can extend anywhere from 15-20 meters;[33] shrapnel may also be projected significant distances from the blast.

Source : NYU and Stanford Law School report (http://www.livingunderdrones.org/report/#_ftn33)

Drone Bombings in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas: Public Remote Sensing Applications for Security Monitoring (http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperInformation.aspx?paperID=18766#.U3dpfvl_srU)

Mats391
2014-05-17, 20:07
Zackyx;2006172']The paradox is that if i do a "Close misse" i will kill the people digging or hiding on the emplacement but not the guy inside manning it. Which is worst thing that can happen to a 1.00 CAS crew because of the new effects you have a huge ball of dirt around that emplacement you can't see him anymore , which make it impossible to score a direct hit on a emplacement with a radius of 1 meter but the guy in the emplacement has no problem to find you since he can see the green box thru to Huge dirt/smoke clood.

Just the Blast wave should kill them




Source : NYU and Stanford Law School report (http://www.livingunderdrones.org/report/#_ftn33)

Drone Bombings in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas: Public Remote Sensing Applications for Security Monitoring (http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperInformation.aspx?paperID=18766#.U3dpfvl_srU)

Hellfires in PR are deadly for soldiers up to around 10-11 meters. Passengers or the crew of a vehicle/emplacement have a higher survive ability rate, because of the bad explosion system used by BF2. I guess you remember when you could survive JDAM 5 meters away because you were in a little ditch/behind small wall. The same happens on the AA. The gunner is surrounded by sandbags and if those are only slightly in the way of the explosion he wont take damage.

I guess your numbers are more about random shrapnel that flies 20m. Most of the explosive energy and shrapnel goes into the ground and only a few fly of long distances. Getting hit by one of those far flying pieces is not what we represent with explosion damage in PR. We cant represent it in any good way, so it is best to focus on the effective splash damage zones. If we had a system that allowed to do proper shrapnel it would be awesome, but unreachable in BF2.

I also checked the damage values of hellfire vs AA.
An AA has 500 max HP and starts bleeding at 250HP. A close miss deals 200 damage, a hit on dirt 1300, a hit on sandbags 420 and a hit on the gun 2400 damage. Only thing that i would change about this is increased damage on sandbags and reduced on dirt, but this would make destroying them harder as hitting the dirt is the easiest to hit.

Chuva_RD
2014-05-17, 21:02
Zackyx;2006172']The paradox is that if i do a "Close misse" i will kill the people digging or hiding on the emplacement but not the guy inside manning it. Which is worst thing that can happen to a 1.00 CAS crew because of the new effects you have a huge ball of dirt around that emplacement you can't see him anymore , which make it impossible to score a direct hit on a emplacement with a radius of 1 meter but the guy in the emplacement has no problem to find you since he can see the green box thru to Huge dirt/smoke clood.

Just the Blast wave should kill them


need to be more convincing, i'm not feel how hard to be gunner on attack helicopter today. When you feels like a flying devil, shoots guys under you and they can't fire back, for you that's not the limit, need to buff cas weaponry for ultrascores of cas-gunners

for example, let me see at least one video where it's hard to play as CAS crew because now your posts looks like you beg more deadly hellfires.

[F|H]Zackyx
2014-05-17, 21:20
Most cas crew can't get more than 10/15 kills. And if there a good AA operator that know how to "glitch" with AA you have no chance (flyng cas in organized games, tournament, clan matches is a nightmare). If you want to see video where its hard to be a cas crew just check youtube its full of bad cas round.

If its that easy , you need to be more convincing and show us how easy it is to be a good CAS crew.

StandardSmurf
2014-05-17, 22:35
" i'm not feel how hard to be gunner on attack helicopter today. When you feels like a flying devil, shoots guys under you and they can't fire back, for you that's not the limit, need to buff cas weaponry for ultrascores of cas-gunners"

LMAO @ A Flying DEVIL ! Very descriptive that sounds like something the Taliban would call CAS IRL.
Only thing about CAS as is that I don't like was demonstrated in the first video of this thread. The splash damage isn't really there like it used to be. Multiple light armored vehicles next to eachother should not get killed but they should take damage, however any infantry around really should get roasted. Avoid the flying devil.

Rhino
2014-05-17, 23:20
To quickly summarise with the whole "hellfire vs deployable AA and other deployable weapons", right now all the deployables use the same sandbag and dirt materials and with the firebase getting a buff from hellfires etc taking them out too easily, so did all the other deployables.

Now first I would like to point out that a near miss on an AA emplacement would mean that the sandbags would most likley protect anyone inside them from the shrapnel etc being thrown up. That is the entire point of sandbags is to protect people from small arms and shrapnel, which is why they are used.

Currently however if you hit the sandbag wall directly with the hellfire, it would do little damage to the deployable and not kill the guy inside, due to all the deployables getting a buff from most things hitting them as it was too easy to take out a firebase before.

I agree this really shouldn't be the case for deployable weapons since if a hellfire directly hit a sandbag wall in r/l, if the missile didn't get though it, the shaped charge would certainly (unless it was a very, very thick one or w/e) and would easily destroy anything on the other side of the sandbag wall.
But at the same time we don't want hellfires or other weapons like that taking out firebases with just hitting their sandbags in one hit since the firebase is meant to represent something that can not be taken out by a surgical strike, but really needs to be overrun by troops to be gotten rid of completely.

As such what we should probably look into doing is making two separate deployable Sandbag materials, one for the firebase and foxholes etc that take little damage from hellfires and other weapons like it, and one for deployable weapons that if hit directly by a hellfire or similar weapons, are then destroyed instantly with killing anyone manning them at the same time. But striking near them or their dirt foundation would still result in the current damage settings, with little to no damage to the deployable and at most, if there is no sandbag wall in the way ie, hitting the dirt foundation within the sandbag wall, killing who ever is manning it. Also worth noting that if you currently hit the weapon itself a hellfire should kill it instantly, but that's without checking the settings but I'm pretty sure that's the case and your more likley to strike the weapon itself than hitting the dirt foundation inside the sandbag wall.

How dose that sound?

Daniel
2014-05-18, 05:16
Your first missile misses (as you can see) and the second hits inside but it seems that in current PR version two or more missiles are needed to hit the AA emplacement to completely destroy it.


Zackyx;2006097']Dude i gave you a link it start at 27:30 (http://youtu.be/kxEVhWUCMn8?t=27m38s) and watch until 31:00

I don't see any improper damage, everything fine, every single Hellfire kills the guys around it and your gun also does the job with a few rounds... :)

[F|H]Zackyx
2014-05-18, 11:27
Rhino;2006270']

How dose that sound?

Good, thank you for looking into this issue.

Daniel pls stop trolling and read what rhino said.

viirusiiseli
2015-03-20, 18:45
Necroing because I'm not sure if this is being fixed or not. This current system is not working. See pictures/video. After direct missile hit to the center of the asset, AA alive, most times even the guy survives.

Hit (http://i.imgur.com/NpGaXad.jpg) After hit (http://i.imgur.com/9oYhfNY.jpg)

Video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGxP3lwmV5o&t=882)

Daniel
2015-03-21, 15:21
most times even the guy survives.

what?!?

Rhino
2015-03-21, 15:34
Necroing because I'm not sure if this is being fixed or not. This current system is not working. See pictures/video. After direct missile hit to the center of the asset, AA alive, most times even the guy survives.

Hit (http://i.imgur.com/NpGaXad.jpg) After hit (http://i.imgur.com/9oYhfNY.jpg)

Video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGxP3lwmV5o&t=882)

Cheers, I had forgotten about what I posted above and I'm currently looking at this kinda stuff at the moment so will put it on my list :)

viirusiiseli
2015-03-22, 04:43
Rhino;2062076']Cheers, I had forgotten about what I posted above and I'm currently looking at this kinda stuff at the moment so will put it on my list :)

Allrighty, good.