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Inspektura43
2013-11-01, 15:07
Helicopter cannons are INCREDIBLY overpowered against other gunships and it shouldnt be like this they are over powered ingame, maybe they are like this IRL but in game they are PAIN in the ASS.
Bad move devs.

Edit: Now since this thread has been moved to the Bugs forum, I assume devs will take care of this bug and we will get a fix in the next version .

Spook
2013-11-01, 15:40
So you are saying that chopper cannons are OP against chopper cannons. Makes sense really. Got to love those rage posts without any content hating on something you legitimitly got owned by a minute ago ingame.

btt: chopper 30mm cannon are UP imo. Need to get a boost since hellfires are almost useless against inf now.

Kerryburgerking
2013-11-01, 15:48
Helicopter cannons are INCREDIBLY overpowered against other gunships and it shouldnt be like this they are over powered ingame, maybe they are like this IRL but in game they are PAIN in the ASS.
Bad move devs.

I'm pretty sure the canopy or engine of a helicopter responds very well to a 30mm HE projectile rushing towards at a very high speed.

rPoXoTauJIo
2013-11-01, 15:53
More deviation(so they won't be OP against other helis) and splash radius/damage(so it will be more effective against inf) plz.

Spook
2013-11-01, 15:58
Ah now i get what he wants to say. that 30mm kills attack choppers too easy. Well since there are no sidewinder anymore you will need something to kill an enemy chopper instead of spamming hellfires until you are out of ammo or hit it. Irl 30mm would kill a chopper within seconds. and ingame it still needs several shots, a good gunner and a newb enemy pilot to kill him with 30mm in a couple of seconds. Otherwise there will be a spectacular gunfight midair for quite a while which is better than the sidewinder insta kills. chopper with better skills actually wins.

rodrigoma
2013-11-01, 16:27
Why would someone take you seriously when you cant even care or manage to post this properly in the correct way and forums?

Ason
2013-11-01, 16:33
I agree choppers seem to die very quickly from 30mm but I don't think there is something wrong with that, seems realistic.

I think what's wrong or imo not so good is to have maps where both team gets AHs. Would nations send choppers to counter choppers ? I mean if lets say the US knows that in area X the russians got choppers, would US really send in their choppers to that area ? I think teams could be balanced in other ways than give them almost identical type of vehicle setup.
I think to give both teams jets and tanks etc is fine and realistic, but to give both teams AHs is not a good idea in my opinion.

Steeps
2013-11-01, 16:37
Honestly, think about real-life damage of 30mm rounds against helicopters. Helicopters have zero to very little armor (maybe except for the Hind). One 30mm round should practically destroy most systems in a helicopter. They are not designed to take such huge shells fired at them.

Inspektura43
2013-11-01, 16:41
Ah now i get what he wants to say. that 30mm kills attack choppers too easy. Well since there are no sidewinder anymore you will need something to kill an enemy chopper instead of spamming hellfires until you are out of ammo or hit it. Irl 30mm would kill a chopper within seconds. and ingame it still needs several shots, a good gunner and a newb enemy pilot to kill him with 30mm in a couple of seconds. Otherwise there will be a spectacular gunfight midair for quite a while which is better than the sidewinder insta kills. chopper with better skills actually wins.

Greaat I see alot of skill is needed now ...
As I said might be different in real life, but like everyone says PR is not a combat simulator thus not everything is supposed to be exactly the same as in real life, the word we would use REALISTIC.
It was quite good in 0.98, only thing needed was to remove AA missiles, not make cannons overpowered. I guess devs thought some people own too much in game and to even the game they made cannons Overpowered.
Also, im glad you like rage posts, theres a reason for these posts obviously.Also the spectacular "gunfight" in midair lasts just about 5 seconds.Whoevers got better ping gunner wins the fight.

Honestly, think about real-life damage of 30mm rounds against helicopters. Helicopters have zero to very little armor (maybe except for the Hind). One 30mm round should practically destroy most systems in a helicopter. They are not designed to take such huge shells fired at them.

Yea same thing I said above.If pr was realistic you wont have the current medic system where 1 tank kills 7 guys the 8th guy grabs HAT kills the tank and revives the whole squad

rodrigoma;1960867']Why would someone take you seriously when you cant even care or manage to post this properly in the correct way and forums?

I could have posted this thread in BF2 Vehicles Feedback forum, but none of the [R-DEV]s would waste their time there looking for peoples opinions.

More deviation(so they won't be OP against other helis) and splash radius/damage(so it will be more effective against inf) plz.

Great idea. +1

Daniel
2013-11-01, 17:10
... which is better than the sidewinder insta kills. chopper with better skills actually wins.

There are no "sidewinder insta kills" as long as the pilot pops his flares as soon as he gets the lock sound. ;)

Brainlaag
2013-11-01, 17:47
There are no "sidewinder insta kills" as long as the pilot pops his flares as soon as he gets the lock sound. ;)

Then you have never piloted a gunship pre 1.0.

Spook
2013-11-01, 18:20
Then you have never piloted a gunship pre 1.0.

^^This

Daniel, pre 1.0 95% of all cases the gunship won who had the first lock on the enemy.

dysin
2013-11-02, 10:35
i need to disagree with the original post. i think that the damage against other helicopters is reasonable. if you wanted to adjust how these fights play out now (post 1.0) then deviation would be a consideration, like mentioned earlier. we don't use lg against other birds anymore. strictly cannons.

might as well point this out here, instead of making another thread: havok v apache, it seems that the apache stands to lose power at a pretty good rate, where the havok (in my experience) has not lost power since 1.0. you typically lose a control in the havok at the farther ends of damage, and start cooking off. the apache, however, seems to lose power completely in the same scenarios, nosing down immediately into an unrecoverable dive. i've personally seen this twice on beirut, and 4 to 5 times on bijar.

from these experiences, i want to say that the havok itself is the issue. specifically, it's not losing engines.

AfterDune
2013-11-02, 11:24
Edit: Now since this thread has been moved to the Bugs forum, I assume devs will take care of this bug and we will get a fix in the next version .
That's not really how it works :). I think one of the mods moved it here, as you're posting it as a bug basically. But if it were up to me it may as well have been posted in the vehicle feedback forum.

I could have posted this thread in BF2 Vehicles Feedback forum, but none of the [R-DEV]s would waste their time there looking for peoples opinions.
If that were true, why on earth would we even have that section?

viirusiiseli
2013-12-27, 14:27
Whoever said that deviation thing makes the most sense. Add deviation+damage against inf since HFs are nerfed hugely. That way it wont be too quick against helis and it'll be good against inf..?

Inspektura43
2014-03-03, 08:58
watch?v=-VaYk4fdX-A

What you can do to prevent this ruining the gameplay feature aka overpowered cannons.

#1 Bring back the Attack Helicopters their old speeds(which is the better option IMO) so you can actually use manouvers to evade the cannon instead of getting raped because you are slower that a school bus.

#2 Keep these speeds but reduce the cannons damage/give more bullet spread(deviation)

Reason why to do it is because GAMEPLAY > REALISM
Cannons are game-breaking for people who like to do CAS attk choppers a lot and you can go ask most of the people who like to do it and see they will agree with me.
I know you wanted to drop down Helicopter Dogfights to minimum but with these changes gunships are now even more dangerous when talking about dogfights and everytime some server puts Kashan Desert ALT/Bijar Canyon ALT choppers go hunt each other even more than in 0.981(and usually kill eachother in an intense 5 seconds lasting head-on "dogfight")

By making the attack helicopters so slow you removed any capability of manouvering, thus in a "dogfight" you can't use any skill to win but only good ping.
It would be really great to see Attack Helicopters have atleast half of what their old speeds were if we never see removal of the OP cannons.
Thanks for reading, and im sorry for my "English"
thats all I had to say.Good day

Pronck
2014-03-03, 09:55
I remember doing barrel rolls in .98 and using speed to evade the other choppers whenever possible, now it's impossible due to the reduced speed and the powerful cannon. I believe buffing the speed is better...

Souls Of Mischief
2014-03-03, 10:37
Someone is mad because he got outplayed.

Inspektura43
2014-03-03, 10:52
Someone is mad because he got outplayed.

Pls dont troll on my thread and post some valid argument,
you are just making yourself look even more retarded than you think you already are.

Souls Of Mischief
2014-03-03, 11:28
Pls dont troll on my thread and post some valid argument,
you are just making yourself look even more retarded than you think you already are.

A nerve was struck.

Mats391
2014-03-03, 11:36
watch?v=-VaYk4fdX-A


I dont see anything particular wrong in your example video. However i did look at the values and it seems a bit excessive on the damage part. Cant promise any change tho.

Tarranauha200
2014-03-03, 11:48
Helicopters are not tanks. They actually do go down from 30mm fire. Helicopter dogfights should not even happen. Proper tactic would be to retreat into area covered by friendly AA and let them shoot down the enemy helicopter that is chasing you.

Inspektura43
2014-03-03, 11:54
Ok you can lock this thread, I couldnt care less.

K4on
2014-03-03, 12:05
We agreed in the team that the current ATK chopper physics are not that fortunate.
When people find the time they will work on them.

Damage related though, just imagine what would happen if some badass 30mm Heat rounds are clashing at light armored vehicles. It wouldn't look good for them in RL as well.
The Havok and apache already take more damage than the mostly non armored cobra, tiger and consorts. Though they are not air tanks.

Also if a Warrior or other 30mm APCs would need more than 10 direct hits to kill an atk chopper, players will rage as well.
Sure, we can code 30mm chopper projectiles different from other 30mm ground vehicles calibers, but that doesn't make sense tbh.


Giving these choppers more agility and speed would be also realistic and helps solving the current issues.

_Fizzco_
2014-03-03, 13:02
It's funny because they removed the AA missiles for a reason, go fucking kill ground targets instead of looking for their attack choppers. If you get a good chance to butt fuck their chopper then go ahead.

Inspektura43
2014-03-03, 13:27
It's funny because they removed the AA missiles for a reason, go fucking kill ground targets instead of looking for their attack choppers. If you get a good chance to butt fuck their chopper then go ahead.

Haha trust me I do that every round, then some noob that found out he must tap S and nose down while above me kill me with that Overpowered cannon in less than 5 seconds, now please get some of you facts right and then talk..

atom9[CH]
2014-03-03, 15:05
K4on;1987898']We agreed in the team that the current ATK chopper physics are not that fortunate.
When people find the time they will work on them.

Hopefully soon ;-)

_Fizzco_
2014-03-04, 12:55
Haha trust me I do that every round, then some noob that found out he must tap S and nose down while above me kill me with that Overpowered cannon in less than 5 seconds, now please get some of you facts right and then talk..

Then your either hanging around for to long, or you need to tell your team to build some AA ;)

Murphy
2014-03-04, 20:47
I'd just like to point out that no matter what you try to do the attack choppers will almost always make each other the priority, once the enemy CAS is down you can start looking at the ground instead of having to check your back constantly. That issue will always remain no matter what changes are done to the armor/speed/damage values, it's part of the game if you like it or not.

In reality a chopper is likely to be called in for CAS once air superiority is established, this cannot be replicated beyond one team have CAS while the other does not. I like the maps that have choppers and fixed wing CAS, it kind of simulates the air dominance aspect...but not too well.

[F|H]Zackyx
2014-06-02, 16:00
The Hind-series gunships have been widely exported in special export variants, with slightly downgraded avionics. The "Mi-25" is an export version of the Hind-D, while the "Mi-35" is similarly an export version of the Hind-E, and the "Mi-35P" is an export version of the Hind-F.

The Iraqis were early foreign operators of the Hind, obtaining them beginning in the late 1970s. It is unclear how many Hinds were purchased by Iraq, with the number on the rough order of 60.

Iraqi Hinds saw particularly heavy action during the Iran-Iraq War of 1980:1988. The gunships were used extensively for ground attack on Iranian troops, inflicting great slaughter and acquiring a fearsome reputation. They were also the first helicopters to engage in serious air-to-air combat with other helicopters, in the form of Iranian AH-1J SeaCobra gunships.

The Hind had been more or less inspired by the American Bell HueyCobra and Hind crews regarded the Cobra as their natural enemy. Although the Hind was faster and tougher, the Cobra was more agile. Soviet evaluations had demonstrated that in a contest between two helicopters the one that could turn more tightly was likely to win.

According to a story, the Cobra's advantage in maneuverability over the Hind had been demonstrated in the early 1980s. A Soviet Hind based in East Germany was flying along the border with West Germany, playing "cat" to a US Army Cobra flying on the other side of the border in the role of "mouse". The Cobra pilot was a "real pro", and the Hind pilot lost control trying to follow his maneuvers. The Soviet gunship went into the ground, killing its crew.

This "kill" could more be chalked up to the Soviet pilot's fatal stupidity than to the American pilot's skill, and in fact the Iraqis demonstrated that the contest between Hind and Cobra was far from one-sided.

It might not have seemed so at first. In November 1980, not long after the beginning of the war with Iraq's invasion of Iran on 22 September 1980, two Iranian SeaCobras crept up on two Hinds and hit them with TOW wired-guided antitank missiles. One Hind went down immediately, the other was badly damaged and crashed before reaching base. The Iranians pulled off a repeat performance on 24 April 1981, destroying two Hinds without loss to themselves.

Then the Iraqis hit back, claiming the destruction of a SeaCobra on 14 September 1983; three SeaCobras on 5 February 1984; and three more on 25 February 1984. Things went quiet for a time, and then on 13 February 1986 each side lost a gunship. A few days later, on 16 February, a Hind shot down a SeaCobra, with a SeaCobra claiming a Hind in return on 18 February. The last engagement between the two types was on 22 May 1986, when the Hinds shot down a SeaCobra.

The score in the end was 10 kills on SeaCobras and 6 kills on Hinds. The relatively small numbers and the inevitable disputes over actual kill numbers makes it unclear if one gunship had a real technical superiority over the other. It appears that the outcome of the fights was dependent more on the tactical situation and pilot skill than the inherent merits of each machine.

Iraqi Hinds also claimed a total of 43 kills against other Iranian helicopters, such as Agusta-Bell Hueys. One Hind even shot down an Iranian McDonnell F-4D Phantom jet fighter on 26 October 1982, though different sources give conflicting details of the incident.

For all the people that say that chopper dogfitht are unrealistic and hellfire kills are not possible in real life.
Choppers were used in germany/ussr and iraq / iran as air superiority tools , this one the reasons why the mi-24 was the fatest gunship in the world at the time.

Source :The Mil Mi-24 Hind & Mi-28 Havoc (http://www.airvectors.net/avhind.html)

LiamBai
2014-06-03, 23:10
I actually agree with Inpek. Cannons are pretty ridiculous currently. Dogfighting should be more down to the skill of the pilot than who is at a higher altitude.
Adding some deviation to the cannon would be nice, and making choppers faster and better handling would be good too.

Realistically I think a small change will make a pretty big difference.

Pronck
2014-06-04, 10:58
Don't tweak the damage of the cannon, only give it some deviation and make sure the chopper handle better.

And about height v.s. skill, the best tactician will win, not the best pilot. A tactic is to go higher than the enemy.

Inspektura43
2014-06-04, 14:05
A tactic is to go higher than the enemy.

That's not a tactic.Thats a waste of time.
It should not matter what height you are on, and it should be the same as in 0.981
I know devs made this change so helis dont hunt each other but they do even more because cannons are so dangerous now.Every time you are going for ground target you have to look around for the enemy cas if they are alive, but even if you do look around there isnt much you can do about it by the time they start shooting at you.It should be that the helicopter in disadvantage (lower altitude etc.) should have a chance of survival(by using manouvers), which rarely happens in 1.0 since helis are so slow and non-manouverable and cannons are so good.

Brooklyn-Tech
2014-06-04, 14:43
- watch an apache video on youtube
- take note of the deviation of the cannon against ground targets
- watch a PR apache video


nuff said

Pronck
2014-06-04, 15:32
That's not a tactic. That's a waste of time.

It should not matter what height you are on, and it should be the same as in 0.981



Then I think you should start watching stuff such as Dogfights on the History Channel. In airwarfare height often depends the battle, sometimes by flying very low, sometimes by flying high.

If you want to get air superiority, you can use your helicopters as a tool to gain it, however for it to be successful you need a proper tactic. A tactic in this case could be flying at 900 altitude when it is known that the enemy flies often at 700 altitude. That way you create an unequal battle, which is the purpose of tactics, giving yourself the biggest advantage and the enemy the biggest disadvantage.

Whether it is a waste of time or not, I won't judge, I don't do CAS that often nor am I very good at it (average at best). In some cases it is better to hunt enemy helicopters, in other cases it is better to go for ground targets, but in any case a tactic stays a tactic.

Height should matter in any case.

Referring to the good old .98 days for you, realize it is over, I realized it with my lovely IEDs. You need to realize it with your CAS helicopters.

Daniel
2014-06-04, 18:27
- watch an apache video on youtube
- take note of the deviation of the cannon against ground targets
- watch a PR apache video


nuff said

Do you have any idea at what range Apache cannon engages irl?? ;) NOT PR...

Daniel
2014-06-04, 18:29
I also agree, heli cannon should do at least 30 % less damage vs. helo...

Inspektura43
2014-06-05, 06:36
Just saying, if DEVS want to make helis stop hunting each other (because afaik that was their intention in 1.0?) they should nerf cannons or make helis faster.This will make people stop flying at 1300 alt because cannons wont be so dangerous and attack helis will be more useful and always able to attack ground targets.
Helicopter dogfights will still happen but they will actually require skill and tactic (not as in "flying at 900 blabla..").

Then I think you should start watching stuff such as Dogfights on the History Channel. In airwarfare height often depends the battle, sometimes by flying very low, sometimes by flying high.


I dont know if you are talking about helicopters or planes/jets.
We are discussing helicopters here and if in real life two helis face each other at a medium range, different alt.(1 lower 1 higher) it still wouldnt matter because real life helicopters have much more up angle than in pr and also different firing modes.RL helis have LOBL firing mode which makes hellfires go in straight line (TOW like) like in PR and it is possible to hellfire a chopper.Even a jet and there is enough evidence of it already.They wont be able to use the cannon because it would be really hard to :

1.Lase and lock on the laze on the enemy heli.
2.Even if you do manage to lock on the laze your bullets will still be innacurate because hitting moving vehicles needs lead.
3.Firing the cannon without an acquired target (no lock) would be way too innacurate and the gunner will miss everything

Ron-Schultz
2014-06-05, 08:02
K4on;1987898']

Giving these choppers more agility and speed would be also realistic and helps solving the current issues.
thats what needs to be improved, the demage system is fine for me

Mats391
2014-06-05, 09:52
I dont think we have anyone currently around that could work on this. Maybe you guys give it a go? Its not that hard, just tweaking existing numbers and you will know how the result should look like :)

Inspektura43
2014-06-05, 10:46
I will see what I can do when I get hands back on my PC, its broken ATM.

Kerryburgerking
2014-06-05, 11:04
Or you could just rely on ground based AA...

Inspektura43
2014-06-05, 11:21
Your ground based AA is more likely to teamkill my chopper rather than do something useful

[F|H]Zackyx
2014-06-05, 12:52
Then I think you should start watching stuff such as Dogfights on the History Channel. In airwarfare height often depends the battle, sometimes by flying very low, sometimes by flying high.




Dogfights from history Channel is not the best way to lean about Past and modern dogfight , because the 3D animation are horrible , but still there is some very interesting pilot interviews.

This is the infamous P51 UFO 360 No scope against a me-109 :duh:

VuBiMM7VGh8

If you want to know and learn about the Best Boom n Zoom pilot of all time read this book
The Blond Knight of Germany: A biography of Erich Hartmann (http://www.amazon.com/The-Blond-Knight-Germany-biography/dp/0830681892)

one of the most amazing book ever !

Now about chopers in real life choppers are limited by the Vne (never-exceed speed) because if they reach this limite Retreating blade stall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retreating_blade_stall) phenomenon will occur which will make the chopper roll the left and if you don't slow down you will crash because the dissymmetry of lift.

93RSJwL07yI

So Boom and zoom tactics are almost impossible in choppers since the max speed they can achieve is around 350-380 km/h and sharp turn will also make the chopper stall and crash. (HACHAZO Turn to retreating blade side close of ground... - YouTube (http://youtu.be/pVW_KtGzfqk)).

But IG we are limited by the engine limitation . IMO Inspek is right choppers dogfights should not be based on randomness but on the crew skill. And diving at 600-700 km/h on a chopper below you is completely un-realistic and game breaking for me.

After my final exams i will try to learn how to tweak the choppers files.

Mats391
2014-06-05, 13:07
I will see what I can do when I get hands back on my PC, its broken ATM.

Nice, if you need help just ask for it :)

Pronck
2014-06-05, 13:14
Height has nothing to do with randomness. Height has to do with the capabilities of the CAS crew . Crew skill doesn't necessarily have to be a good shot or a good flyer, it can also be your tactical capabilities.

However I have the feeling you want to take away the influence of tactics by balancing things out in what seems your favor.

[F|H]Zackyx
2014-06-05, 13:59
Height has nothing to do with randomness. Height has to do with the capabilities of the CAS crew . Crew skill doesn't necessarily have to be a good shot or a good flyer, it can also be your tactical capabilities.

However I have the feeling you want to take away the influence of tactics by balancing things out in what seems your favor.

I don't want to sound cocky or arrogant but im sure that you are aware that me in inspek we are doing extremely good with the current flight models of CAS choppers . If i wanted to keep things in my favor i will not be here trying to make it better and more fair for others players. Even if we don't like it we are pretty good at doing CAS in 1.0 , some realy good cas crew from 0.98 suck at CAS right now and few people master the 1.00 flying style.

Daniel
2014-06-06, 12:27
Btw. Zackyx, approx. how much faster is Havoc flying when upside-down (as shown several times in your awesomesauce-gameplay videos) ? Curious... :) (Maybe DEVs can fix this UN-realistic-UN-PR-like flight-physic-glitch OR the server admins should prohibit it in a rule on specific server if they want to...)

Inspektura43
2014-06-06, 13:23
It's not really down to balance things out only in our favour but for everybody.
It is really unfair to see a good heli crew attacking ground targets and in the middle of their run they get attacked and there is almost nothing you can do to avoid dying.

and omg zacky stop you cock is huge enough already :d

X-Alt
2014-06-07, 18:02
The gunship cannons are OP on the air2air front, a better pilot should be the determining factor, not the person who spams W the most. A high 3 second deviation settle would be good.

[F|H]Zackyx
2014-06-07, 19:13
Deviation for when the chopper move ? are you serious ?

Canon is a bit OP in A2A and suck at ground target

The best way to fix is to make chopper more maneuverable so they can espace the dealy canons .
And increase the canon damage to ground targets and reduce it to air 2 air

X-Alt
2014-06-07, 22:17
Zackyx;2012970']Deviation for when the chopper move ? are you serious ?

Canon is a bit OP in A2A and suck at ground target

The best way to fix is to make chopper more maneuverable so they can espace the dealy canons .
And increase the canon damage to ground targets and reduce it to air 2 air
For the cannon moving I mean, and +1 to your post.

malacovics
2014-06-09, 15:04
More deviation(so they won't be OP against other helis) and splash radius/damage(so it will be more effective against inf) plz.

Now that's something I can get behind. More AI role, less AA role.

Daniel
2014-06-11, 16:08
Zackyx;2012970']so they can espace the dealy canons .
escape the deadly cannons.