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40mmrain
2013-01-31, 01:54
Gunships in project reality are overpowered. Tactics can be practiced that render them almost unkillable, and some maps that include them, especially ones with lots of armour, and 2 per side, the game's outcome depends massively on who wins in the sky, leaving armour out to dry. This thread does not address jets as they differ in certain mechanics. It is not uncommon to see skilled pilots completely dominate enemy armour over a game, resulting in massive ground advantage for their allies, and a huge ticket loss for the enemy overall. This dependence on one vehicle to win a game is imbalanced.

Firstly, there is zero hope for ground AA against a clever CAS helicopter. The short draw distances, ability to dive perfectly vertical with no trouble, lack of RADAR for AA weapons, and the inability to look straight up renders AA on the ground mostly defenseless, only hoping to get surprise attacks. Because of draw distance, and in general short ranges of lock on, cas choppers can fire on enemy AA before they can even lock, meaning even if the AA know CAS is about to show up CAS can fire before the enemy can, and because AAVs and static AA cant look straight up, a skilled helicopter pilot will never be in any danger at all, too. AAVs lack any kind of RADAR systems that could warn them about enemy helicopters, so its all up to eye, really, this doesnt really reflect reality. The only AA weapons that can look up are the handheld, but the strela is so neutered its not a very viable weapon. The strela should be made equivalent to the stinger, and static ground AA/AAVs should have longer ranges, or failing that, shorter lock times. Gunships themselves are the best gunship counter, and as a result, the battle in the air decides a lot of the game, which is a plain imbalance.

Secondly is the omnipotence of the hellfire, and equivalent. IT kills everything in one hit, and has a huge splash. This reflects reality, but a reflection of reality needs to be full for there to be balance. Because of draw distance and short AA range, a simply unstoppable tactic is to dive perfectly vertically on the opponent and quickly switch between LT and LG missiles proceeding to dump 8-10 missiles on a target area. A gunship flying by itself at ~1500m alt on a real battlefield would simply be annihilated, so at the same time we cant have absurdly powerful missiles on an unrealistic model. A way to curb this, would be to greatly lengthen missile reload times. An important feature that keeps attack helicopters in check, is their reload times, and constant need to resupply flares, creating considerable down time, and resulting in a lesser presence. Upping missile reload times by a significant factor would prevent missile dumping, and a complete domination of armour in general. Also, because of how useful the AT missiles are in chopper-chopper engagements, this change would also mean that using up all your missiles in a fight would not be as catastrophic to the enemy team because of how long you would have to resupply for.

In conclusion, the best weapon in the game (AT gunship missiles) is attached to a nearly uncounterable vehicle, if the right tactics are practiced. This of course is rather imbalanced and should be addressed by nerfing the missiles in one way, and making the vehicle less than invincible. However, despite what i've stated, there is an issue. The degree of overpowered that a gunship is, is dependent on the map. Shijia, and pavlovsk for example are very forested, and dont have nearly as much armour, thus less targets, and more challenging targets is what happens. In this case, a long missile reload time may make the gunships not particularly useful. MAps like black gold, kashan, iron eagle, and vadso the CAS is however far too dominant. So a reload time adjusting by map would be the best solution I think.

For evidence of overpowered gunships, observe the countless videos posted on youtube, and the PR forums of players executing vertical dives in helicopters, and racking up easy kills. I think virus has like 8.

Rhino
2013-01-31, 05:11
Some good points there 40mm and pretty much all of them we have been talking about and looking at address behind the scenes although can't say we will have all our ideas implemented for the next version, if ever, but we are looking into it :)

Secondly is the omnipotence of the hellfire, and equivalent. IT kills everything in one hit, and has a huge splash. This reflects reality

Actually it doesn't. The "standard" hellfire and equivalent missiles, have shaped charge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaped_charge) warheads, designed to defeat tank armour with a direct hit. If one of these missiles was to hit the ground, most of the warheads energy would be focused into the ground, digging a big creator but not actually doing that much "splash damage" like our hellfires ingame do currently.

As such, we are "looking into" making these missiles only do damage to armoured vehicles with a direct hit, and also reducing splash damage radius vs infantry and soft skinned vehicles.

While there are also frag versions of these missiles, they are not anything like as commonly used as the shaped charge versions, and if we where to implement them ingame, it would only be on maps where there was no to little armour presence and these missiles would then really only be used vs infantry.

ShockUnitBlack
2013-01-31, 05:54
True. A lot of issues stem from Battlefield's poor helicopter physics.

gijoe
2013-01-31, 06:29
Gunships in project reality are overpowered. Tactics can be practiced that render them almost unkillable, and some maps that include them, especially ones with lots of armour, and 2 per side, the game's outcome depends massively on who wins in the sky, leaving armour out to dry.

UH...DUH. Any tank or tank column for that matter by itself, against a gunship should be killed. Thats kinda what they are made to do. Ive hardly ever seen a tank squad run AAV with them and thats their own stupidity for not taking along the best protection from CAS because they are armor whores.

This thread does not address jets as they differ in certain mechanics. It is not uncommon to see skilled pilots completely dominate enemy armour over a game, resulting in massive ground advantage for their allies, and a huge ticket loss for the enemy overall. This dependence on one vehicle to win a game is imbalanced.

Once again...unchallenged in real life and PR any gunship/CAS will tip the scales for that team. I dont see whats wrong with that? Would you prefer that all tanks be fitted with AA pods on the roof to balance it if the opposing team has shitty pilots?

Firstly, there is zero hope for ground AA against a clever CAS helicopter. The short draw distances, ability to dive perfectly vertical with no trouble, lack of RADAR for AA weapons, and the inability to look straight up renders AA on the ground mostly defenseless, only hoping to get surprise attacks. Because of draw distance, and in general short ranges of lock on, cas choppers can fire on enemy AA before they can even lock, meaning even if the AA know CAS is about to show up CAS can fire before the enemy can, and because AAVs and static AA cant look straight up, a skilled helicopter pilot will never be in any danger at all, too. AAVs lack any kind of RADAR systems that could warn them about enemy helicopters, so its all up to eye, really, this doesnt really reflect reality. The only AA weapons that can look up are the handheld, but the strela is so neutered its not a very viable weapon. The strela should be made equivalent to the stinger, and static ground AA/AAVs should have longer ranges, or failing that, shorter lock times. Gunships themselves are the best gunship counter, and as a result, the battle in the air decides a lot of the game, which is a plain imbalance.

Your whole issue with this is that you are expecting that AA have just as likely of a chance at killing a chopper as the chopper the AA. How does this make sense at all? If a chopper has a surprise attack on the AA why should the AA have a super short lock time because he was snuck up on? Just because the guy on the AA didnt know he was coming?

Inversely, if you increase AA range which is already absurd compared to some map sizes..all you are doing is allowing people to randomly scan the sky BEYOND view range and randomly lock and possibly kill helos. How is that that fair to the helo pilot? You are just lollin around at 1500 off the to side of the map and boom you are dead. That sounds pretty imbalanced to me.

Secondly is the omnipotence of the hellfire, and equivalent. IT kills everything in one hit, and has a huge splash. This reflects reality, but a reflection of reality needs to be full for there to be balance. Because of draw distance and short AA range, a simply unstoppable tactic is to dive perfectly vertically on the opponent and quickly switch between LT and LG missiles proceeding to dump 8-10 missiles on a target area. A gunship flying by itself at ~1500m alt on a real battlefield would simply be annihilated, so at the same time we cant have absurdly powerful missiles on an unrealistic model.

A chopper wouldnt be flying at 1500m in the first place because of AA. They fly low and take targets out from spots where radar and heat based AA cant see. The AA on most maps has a far enough lock distance a real life tactic like that is impossible, thusly making 1500m dives on AA's fittingly appropriate given the situation.

A way to curb this, would be to greatly lengthen missile reload times. An important feature that keeps attack helicopters in check, is their reload times, and constant need to resupply flares, creating considerable down time, and resulting in a lesser presence. Upping missile reload times by a significant factor would prevent missile dumping, and a complete domination of armour in general. Also, because of how useful the AT missiles are in chopper-chopper engagements, this change would also mean that using up all your missiles in a fight would not be as catastrophic to the enemy team because of how long you would have to resupply for.

If you are going to lengthen time between shooting missiles you may as well just ask the devs to build us a FCS then. Sometimes flying at full tilt hellfires can be misguided on a tank or AA(V) that a helo is attacking and increasing time between missiles is basically a death sentance. If you dive on an AA and miss it, it will have more than enough time to pop off 4 AAs before the helo can RTC and fire again. And increasing reload times at base is just stupid..you may as well increase reload times for tanks because they over power infantry..and you may as well increase reload times for auto rifles because they over power rifleman.

In conclusion, the best weapon in the game (AT gunship missiles) is attached to a nearly uncounterable vehicle, if the right tactics are practiced. This of course is rather imbalanced and should be addressed by nerfing the missiles in one way, and making the vehicle less than invincible. However, despite what i've stated, there is an issue. The degree of overpowered that a gunship is, is dependent on the map. Shijia, and pavlovsk for example are very forested, and dont have nearly as much armour, thus less targets, and more challenging targets is what happens. In this case, a long missile reload time may make the gunships not particularly useful. MAps like black gold, kashan, iron eagle, and vadso the CAS is however far too dominant. So a reload time adjusting by map would be the best solution I think.

The only thing you are going to do by nerfing missiles is force the helo to stay in a potentially AA covered area if you miss the hellfire. There have been times where ive dropped two hellfires right next to a tank that was on the move with little to no damage on that vehicle. There is very little splash damage to heavy armor like tanks and for what reason shouldnt a missile landing next to your humvee kill you?

Secondly, alot of helo gunner's reticules are proper shit. The havok is just a box...with no precise mark of where your rounds are going to land. Similar things with the second seaters in jets with weird ass "W" looking reticules. You cant seriously expect a person to kill a tank on the move while hes moving, with nerfed missiles, shitty reticules and NO FIRE CONTROL SYSTEM. Thats simply asking way to much. Thats like asking a rifleman AT to kill a LAV at 800m with a LAW rocket, its nearly impossible. All while expecting the AA to have increased view distance or shorter lock time.

Im genuinely surprised that you are asking this 40mm cause I see you in CAS just about every time a map with helos come up. You are basically fkin your self in the arse with suggestions like these.

For evidence of overpowered gunships, observe the countless videos posted on youtube, and the PR forums of players executing vertical dives in helicopters, and racking up easy kills. I think virus has like 8.

Its a montage of helo kills. I can make you a montage of AA kills on helos if you like and you can start a thread about how thats too OP too if thats how you are basing your argument off of.

ExeTick
2013-01-31, 07:55
For evidence of overpowered gunships, observe the countless videos posted on youtube, and the PR forums of players executing vertical dives in helicopters, and racking up easy kills. I think virus has like 8.

what should be done in my opinion is to fix the vertical dives so you CANNOT do a vertical dive. that is something that is not realistic at all.

that is a montage of him killing. if someone made 8 tank videos 5min each him just killing would it make tanks OP? :roll:

ExeTick
2013-01-31, 08:02
30mm cannon on cas helicopters are weak in my opinion.

if hellfires are going to be nerfed against infantry, that cannon should get a little bit better.
just my opinion ;)

|pr|kruemeltee
2013-01-31, 09:35
30mm cannon on cas helicopters are weak in my opinion.

Totally agree. Especially the cobras gun feels like you have to him directly in the face... twice... until he starts taking damage...:?

For evidence of overpowered gunships, observe the countless videos posted on youtube, and the PR forums of players executing vertical dives in helicopters, and racking up easy kills. I think virus has like 8.

I can also show you videos or screenshots from tank/apc gunners with more than 50 kills in a round. There are also videos of snipers or ARs who run 20/30 kills per round. You just need to know how to use an asset or kit.

Its always the same in pr: Lack of teamplay (or rather lack of specific assets like AAs or ATs). If you have no air defense, the CAS will beat the shit out of you. If you have no ATs the tanks will teach you a lesson.

Balancing is fine in my eyes. Yes, they can dominate a whole round, but they can go down faster than anything else.

Heavy Death
2013-01-31, 10:10
Longer rearm time should be done for ALL vehicles. 2-3 minutes or something to reaload chopper/tank atleast.

L4gi
2013-01-31, 10:44
20/30 kills with AR is nothing. There is nothing to complain avout when it complain about when it comes to gunships. Imo they are too easy to take out, and im talking from the perspective of the guy taking them out. Its all about positioning. If you place the AA on the highest hilll, damn straight youll be lased and taken out. And to be honest when youre lased thats pretty much gamer over for you.

There is no need to make using AA any easier than it already is. The problem is the guy using the AA, not the emplacement/kit.

Dont rely on just one AA emplacement, "build" AA traps! One obvious AA position which is covered by another AA or an AA kit. There, now all CAS pilots are mad. I cant believe people are so stupid that instead of thinking a way to handle the situation, they whine and bitch for nerfs...

Hokunin
2013-01-31, 10:57
Yeah, there are some issues with the Attack choppers... If your team's attack chopper pilots are noobs - then you pretty much lost the game. And it doesn't matter whether you have brilliantly acting ground forces or not; you're just lost already.

L4gi
2013-01-31, 12:05
Not necessarily. If your inf sucks then you suck.

Brooklyn-Tech
2013-01-31, 14:15
i would increase the weapon reload time for choppers to balance this (think it should be an easy fix)

chopper reload time should reflect jet reload time. (time spent on decreasing speed, lining up on the runway, taxi-ing to rearm spot, rearming, taxi-ing back, starting off, being combat effective).

choppers are, IMO, a pain in the ass for the opposing team where with jets, it's not that big of a deal.

inb4 cas whores start to fanatically defend their asset's power.

L4gi
2013-01-31, 15:06
Jet is even more OP imo...

Professorson
2013-01-31, 15:49
Jet is even more OP imo...

Indeed, you've a far greater chance of killing a slow heli than you would killing a f16 dropping a bomb from 700 and killing you before you even know you're dead.

Psyrus
2013-01-31, 16:42
Indeed, you've a far greater chance of killing a slow heli than you would killing a f16 dropping a bomb from 700 and killing you before you even know you're dead.

True, but jets basically require ground-intel to be effective [happy to be corrected here] whilst CAS choppers can operate independent of lazes and direct intel [based on my personal observations], especially on desert based maps where they can go tank/fob hunting without horrible man-pad AA hiding in buildings.

ExeTick
2013-01-31, 16:50
True, but jets basically require ground-intel to be effective [happy to be corrected here] whilst CAS choppers can operate independent of lazes and direct intel [based on my personal observations], especially on desert based maps where they can go tank/fob hunting without horrible man-pad AA hiding in buildings.

cas helicopters can do that but then they are 1. running the risk of getting attacked by enemy cas. 2. taken out by AA. 3. taken out by enemy apc (thinking of mec apcs).

BMP can aim almost straight up, and its super effective against helis. my self have downed a few helicopters using bmp (trans and cas). even BTR60-70 with 14.5mm cannon can aim almost straight up. and that gun is also very effective against helicopters.

so flying low and hunting for targets without any laze or even any information about enemy armor is almost suicidal.

VapoMan
2013-01-31, 17:03
Jet is even more OP imo...

Ehhh no. I've seen both the attack helicopter and the jet version of Black Gold play out many times with very good pilots and the attack helicopters are at least 200% more bullshit than the jets.

Here are a few key points.

A jet can fly over and drop a bomb but you know you wont see it again for a while, but an attack helicopter can sit there hovering from up high constantly harassing you until it either runs out of ammo or meets some sort of resistance.

While jets pretty much NEED someone on the ground to direct fire and lase targets, attack helicopters can much more effectively do there own thing since they have much more accurate manual fire and fly closer to the ground. It might not be the safest way for a helicopter to play but its very effective.

Jets are take longer to land, rearm and repair and the landing process is much harder than helicopters.

They are just as vulnerable to AA if not more so due to their weak armour and if they manage to survive a hit they are much less likely to be able to return to base, land and repair successfully, while attack helicopters seem to be able to brush off most damage and easily escape back to base even when losing health.

While both jets and helicopters have their advantages and can do extremely well in certain circumstances I've been in many more situations where enemy attack helicopters have made me want to rage quit.

nAyo
2013-01-31, 17:04
You're saying that a CAS chopper can be OP if a good crew is manning it. Well what's the purpose of that, anything would be considered as OP if properly manned then, a tank is also overpowered if a very experienced and good crew is operating it?

Good pilots can do well with a chopper, people lacking experience can be killed easy. Isn't that the purpose of the game itself, having more experienced people for all kind of vehicle?

ExeTick
2013-01-31, 17:07
spot on nAyo :)

Rabbit
2013-01-31, 17:09
Rhino;1859791']
While there are also frag versions of these missiles, they are not anything like as commonly used as the shaped charge versions, and if we where to implement them ingame, it would only be on maps where there was no to little armour presence and these missiles would then really only be used vs infantry.

I do think the frag version should be used in insurgency as I believe that is what they usually delivered to us. Honestly I don't think it should be an "if" for insurgency, but a must.

VapoMan
2013-01-31, 17:37
You're saying that a CAS chopper can be OP if a good crew is manning it. Well what's the purpose of that, anything would be considered as OP if properly manned then, a tank is also overpowered if a very experienced and good crew is operating it?

Good pilots can do well with a chopper, people lacking experience can be killed easy. Isn't that the purpose of the game itself, having more experienced people for all kind of vehicle?

My comparison was of jets and helicopters with BOTH having a good crew. A balanced comparison rather then comparing a super good helicopter crew to a noob jet pilot that flies 10m off the ground.

The crew of any vehicle or asset can be experienced and therefore better and more effective with that asset, but a good helicopter crew can rape much more than a good jet, which is what my reply to L4gi was all about.

mockingbird0901
2013-01-31, 19:46
While yes, jets can be a bitch, it takes much more teamwork for them to operate well. If a jet fly on its own, with no eyes on the ground, he might spot a target. He will then have to circle around going back at it to try and take a shot at it, because of the speed it travels at. A chopper on the other hand can just aim and click in a matter of seconds. As inf I mostly enjoy (believe it or not) getting shot at by jets, because the chances of getting out of it alive is greater then when getting shot at by a chopper. If anything I at least usually live a bit longer, and get to enjoy the fireworks.

Like this video. Watch from 4:00

oPDQrIOO_oM

If that had been a chopper they would all be dead in 20 sec. Here it takes 1 min from the first attack, which was way of, until he comes back at them.

But I am very glad that I'm not the one responsible for finding a fix for this, if there will even be one, as I don't see a easy way of dealing with it.

nAyo
2013-01-31, 19:47
Ye vapo I somehow agree with you, my message was in response to the thread itself anyway, not directed to you

chrisweb89
2013-01-31, 19:56
What L4gi was saying I think is that a jet, and a lase is almost impossible to kill, even with interlocking AA, if the pilot flies at 800 dropping flares and bombing. Even the best pilots, with the most flares in an attack chopper can be taken out by a hidden AA, and that's all that is needed.

The reason those montages look so OP is:1) No one makes a montage of them dieing... 2) A lot of those clips a little bit of teamwork would have killed or atleast scared the chopper away.

On kashan I rarely see a tank squad running two tanks and an AAV, its always 3 tanks, and off to some corner of the map. Then they die to CAS and grab all the AAVs and die to armour...

FLAP_BRBGOING2MOON
2013-01-31, 20:35
everything complained about in this thread reflects the reality of an attack helicopter's power.(minus the flare dive, which honestly all you have to do is spam aa and its a 50/50 shot to shoot the thing down).


On kashan I rarely see a tank squad running two tanks and an AAV, its always 3 tanks, and off to some corner of the map. Then they die to CAS and grab all the AAVs and die to armour...

also this.

Kaland
2013-01-31, 21:05
Exactly nAyo, the choppers are only "OP" if the ones manning them are good, and that is rare tbh, and they are even quite easy to shoot down if you have more than one AA in a smart position.

If anything is "OP" it's jets, beacuse if you have a good pilot and air superiority a jet is more or less impossible to shoot down while he can drop bombs at you at will.

40mmrain
2013-01-31, 21:29
30mm cannon on cas helicopters are weak in my opinion.

if hellfires are going to be nerfed against infantry, that cannon should get a little bit better.
just my opinion ;)

I agree with this.

The point im trying to make is that there are tactics that can be practiced where you are basically unkillable, and one or two helicopters totally decide the game, which make it quite unfun for other players.

Now I still think that Gunships should be very strong, they should be tweaked, nerfed just a little so that theyre not op

Just a bit shorter lock, a better range of motion for static AA and slightly less volume of hellfire missiles would be enough.


If anything is "OP" it's jets, beacuse if you have a good pilot and air superiority a jet is more or less impossible to shoot down while he can drop bombs at you at will.

landing a jet takes longer, bombing requires lazes, and you get less bombs, and missiles at once compared to helicopters. That was the reason I suggested missile reload times. Yes jets are probably even harder to kill from the ground, but their downtime is so significant, and they require lazes (except certain jets which are limited for other reasons), that they are simply dont effect the battle as much

chrisweb89
2013-01-31, 22:29
Then there are realistic tactics that end in death unless you are against an enemy without a brain. Popping up from a hill? HAT or AP round in the face.

ComradeHX
2013-01-31, 22:40
Imo, Project Reality is all about OP assets(when used correctly).

It just needs OP counters from infantry:
1. handheld LAT should kill choppers and APC in one shot, if not instantly...make it bleed out in 10s. Giving it 2s aim time is not a bad option either.
2. handheld AA needs to also be OP enough to kill in one shot.


Then it would be balanced because assets are OP but counters are also OP; OP vs OP = balanced.

Or maybe with 128 players implemented; there can be a lot of LAT and AA in squads to make up for lack of effective damage to assets from infantry squad(currently, one LAT is usually not enough to save squad from most APC aside from typical MTLB).

Kaland
2013-01-31, 22:52
40mm, that is bs imo, i've seen jets completely RAPE the enemy team multiple times, but rarely see it happen with choppers.

Yes the amount of times jets has to reload significantly more, but take into consideration the time choppers usually take to climb to diving altitude, while with jets a decent pilot can land, reload and get up in the air and hit the target in aprox the same time as a chopper can go RTB, reload and then climb again, heck maybe even faster due to the speed advantage most jets has(some excluded like the A10)

Also remember that most of the time, but not always attack helicopters tend to RTB after each run, so all in all the reload times and time the CAS is operational is even if not even in favor of the jets.

Might seem like i think something else, but all i all i think neither are OP tbh. CAS' effectiveness tend to be proportional with the skill of the CAS crew, and if the opposing team would invest as little as like 2 of their players in AA in decent placed positions most CAS assets can be taken out without to much trouble.

L4gi
2013-01-31, 23:17
The fact that someone gets raped by an asset doesnt mean the asset is op. It means the guy getting killed is a dumbass. Flare dive? Yes please, have some HAT to the face with that.

They shouldnt make the game easier because people are bad. Its just that more rewarding when you actually have to succeed at something, instead of getting a medal for participation.

ShockUnitBlack
2013-01-31, 23:27
... Fix helicopter physics. That is all.

Jafar Ironclad
2013-01-31, 23:44
I'm working on helo physics, which should hopefully reduce the incidence of "What? helicopters can't do that!" tactics in the game.

40mmrain
2013-02-01, 00:00
They shouldnt make the game easier because people are bad. Its just that more rewarding when you actually have to succeed at something, instead of getting a medal for participation.
nerfing helicopters would make the game harder for you as a regular helicopter pilot, so by your logic you should really encourage these changes 8)

L4gi
2013-02-01, 10:21
Im not a regular helicopter pilot. I do it every now and then, but if anything im a regular infantry guy.

And as an infantry guy, there is nothing OP about the gunships.

Pronck
2013-02-01, 11:24
Im not a regular helicopter pilot. I do it every now and then, but if anything im a regular infantry guy.

And as an infantry guy, there is nothing OP about the gunships.

As a infantry guy you should that only one thing is OP in the game: Epipens ! Get killed by a hellfire , get revived by a epipen....

[F|H]Zackyx
2013-02-01, 15:13
Attack chopers are not Op at all !

- Kiowa map if infantry is glitching by Hip firing AA You CANT fly
- Mutrah a Fixed AA covered By a second one or Manpad and you CANT fly
Manpad covering the way back to the deck and you are dead

- All maps people hip firing AA , Proper aa defense is undefeatable AAV covered by a man pad or fixed and the cas is going down.

Now if you dont understand why people dive its easy :

- flares dont work like they are suposed to
- We have no FCS or gyroscopic stabilisation this why we dive so the gunner can fire.
- the view distance is so small if you want realistic flyng give us realistic view distance like below :

You can see they easily take out armor from 2000+ meters and this footage is from the 1st gulf war imagine what they can with hellfire nowadays.

0s-LT5p4Nj4



If people want balance because they are killed by an asset designed to kill them they are just stupid even kid can understand this !

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/af/Rock-paper-scissors_%28paper%29.png/100px-Rock-paper-scissors_%28paper%29.pnghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7e/Rock-paper-scissors_%28rock%29.png/100px-Rock-paper-scissors_%28rock%29.pnghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5f/Rock-paper-scissors_%28scissors%29.png/100px-Rock-paper-scissors_%28scissors%29.pnghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e6/Rock_paper_scissors.jpg/300px-Rock_paper_scissors.jpg

Now let my ask for some modification:

- I want the removal of lazer beams on tanks and apcs because no drop on the projectile is bullshit Apc can take down chopper with no compensation for the drop this give to apcs and tank a big edge in Close combat situation with chopers you just have to lead few degres in front of the choppers and they will go down.

-Proper view distance , lock on capabilities on armor :D
-Fcs and gyroscopic stabilisation
-Gravity for kinetic projectiles
-Proper mechanics for flares
-NO hip fire capabilities for MANPAD

I know that DEVS are working on some of those tweaks and I want to thank to all them for the great work.

But people have no idea how CAS his hard to give you an exemple: muttrah it takes 3 to 4 minute do a cycle ( Dive>RTB>Reload>Take altitude>Ready to dive) each 4 minutes you have a window of 10 second to dump everything you have for this you need a good team and spoters CAS is realy realy dependant of spotter and ground intel because we cannot search for targets because of the viewdistance, if you think cas is raping you kill the MOTHERFUCKER who is lazing you for 1hours Turn on your brain pls !
And if you had bad intel you just waisted 8 to 6 minute for nothing or worst ou dive on a target but theyre is an AA covering the target so you die. Also stop building Fixed on roof top and Hill tops and stop rebuilding the same AA 5 or 6 time its obvious that you are going to die.

Some bonus :

Who said that Choppers cannot diver of do barel roll or backflips ?
L4dOvUNO4rg n9ZUXNeBoHo

And for Chrismas
DDPL8RIosnk 3m13s ;)

ComradeHX
2013-02-01, 17:45
Zackyx;1860242']
- I want the removal of lazer beams on tanks and apcs because no drop on the projectile is bullshit Apc can take down chopper with no compensation for the drop this give to apcs and tank a big edge in Close combat situation with chopers you just have to lead few degres in front of the choppers and they will go down.


You were not supposed to go close quarters against apcs and tanks anyway.

ExeTick
2013-02-01, 17:56
Dive>RTB>Reload>Take altitude>Ready to dive)

hopefully they manage to make it harder to come out of a dive so people stop doing it.
diving with a cas helicopter is something that is most unrealistic with cas helicopters atm.

Mikemonster
2013-02-01, 18:01
As Inf I've not really had a problem with enemy CAS chopper. Usually they are busy hunting opposition CAS choppers or tanks etc.

(CAS Hueys aside, these are a nightmare compared to a Cobra or Apache because they are tanks and do attack runs with impunity).

Huey/Havok/Cobra are all 1 shot kills when hit by handheld AA. Can't ask fairer than that.

The real pain is knowing when one respawns. I'm sure in real life soldiers have an egg timer on the battlefield so they know when the enemy CAS duo is due back after their enforced toilet break but nobody bothers in PR, which makes it annoying when you have to tell your guy to get an AA kit again for 'spot defence' (similar to when you hear an enemy tank and tell him to go HAT).

You can't realistically represent Helis in PR, and jets even less so, especially in the A-A modes. Anyone with a semblence of common sense and knowledge realises this. Flying in PR is like flying through soup and the WEZ' reflect this!

Rabbit
2013-02-01, 19:05
I agree with this.



I disagree, while never having first hand witnessed 40mm on soft targets, I have watched 35mm rip into soft targets, and all but one walked away, granted the rest were limping.

ShockUnitBlack
2013-02-01, 20:51
I'd be cool with two hits from AA in exchange for AA radar, better and more AA (eg vehicle AA for the IDF and DShKMs for Insurgents), and reduced helicopter speeds. Maybe the anti-air kit could become a squad limited kit rather than a team one.

Microwaife
2013-02-01, 23:53
I'd be cool with two hits from AA in exchange for AA radar, better and more AA (eg vehicle AA for the IDF and DShKMs for Insurgents), and reduced helicopter speeds. Maybe the anti-air kit could become a squad limited kit rather than a team one.

This would be very unrealistic. If you want choppers to be killed more often, make the AA stronger.

ShockUnitBlack
2013-02-02, 01:10
I'd prefer to see some sort of intermediate stage of damage, with the helicopter limping back to base.

tankninja1
2013-02-02, 03:24
Part of the problem in my opinion is that AA cannot hit anything over 1000m at that point the rockets just shoot straight up, not to mention they won't even start locking until the aircraft is within 1000m

Professorson
2013-02-02, 06:50
Psyrus;1859954']True, but jets basically require ground-intel to be effective [happy to be corrected here] whilst CAS choppers can operate independent of lazes and direct intel [based on my personal observations], especially on desert based maps where they can go tank/fob hunting without horrible man-pad AA hiding in buildings.

this is true , i was simply saying jets are a lot harder to kill compared to attack helis.

assuming a jet squad has at least 2 spotters , which it always does when one of my crew is using them the jet will do a lot more damage as once it's killed the opposition fighter its basically untouchable, unlike attack helis which can be killed alot easier by lucky AA shots , AAV camping main.. basically anything as it doesn't have the ability to be at 2000alt in 5 seconds




The real pain is knowing when one respawns.



just have phlupple on your team and you're set ^_^

chrisweb89
2013-02-02, 07:25
I think he has atleast 5 watches.

Psyrus
2013-02-02, 07:40
this is true , i was simply saying jets are a lot harder to kill compared to attack helis.

I won't deny that a good spotter/jet pilot team is harder to kill than the CAS helicopters... I've definitely been on the receiving end of jet punishment by good spotters, but at the same time I maintain that as an overall package, on the basis of your average players - CAS helicopters are more overpowered. Changes to the helicopters' physics would go a long way to mitigating this imbalance though.

Professorson
2013-02-02, 08:31
Remove vertical dive ie heli at 1400 nose Down firing thru fog and profit op tactics gone

Psyrus
2013-02-02, 08:36
Remove vertical dive ie heli at 1400 nose Down firing thru fog and profit op tactics gone

Couldn't agree more.

Moszeusz6Pl
2013-02-02, 08:49
Maybe decreasing height, when turbulences starts for choppers will limit this issue?

Professorson
2013-02-02, 08:52
Choppers get turbulence ?

Jafar Ironclad
2013-02-02, 09:04
Believe he's talking about the altitude where you lose control of the craft. It mostly applies to jets (in vanilla, at 800m altitude, in PR, at about 4km altitude).

Hokunin
2013-02-02, 09:19
vertical dive ie heli at 1400 nose Down firing

Our strong fob defenses or AA vehicles been destroyed into dust like that lots of times in different servers. Its like, its become a standard win-win tactic of every chopper pilot in PR, everybody know it and uses it. After that, chopper just casually shoots down every infantry that survived. That what happens when your team chopper pilots are noobs and cant defend u from that enemy chopper. Its only a battle of choppers practically.

I don't think in real life, vertical dive shooting from above is standard attack chopper tactics...

Moszeusz6Pl
2013-02-02, 09:21
Yes, I was talking about altitude, when you start loosing control of aircraft. If this will be set to altitude, from which helicopters are usually attacking, this will force them to attack from lover altitude. I am also thinking about not completely disabling control of helicopter, but making it harder to maneuver, so pilots will need to decide, attack from high altitude and stay safe, but make attack slower, because it will be harder to move chopper, and also risk that will go too high, lose control of chopper and overshoot target in result, or from low altitude, attacking faster and more accurate, but risking being shoot down.

Professorson
2013-02-02, 09:46
Lol has anyone ever taken a heli to 4000? Other than the !fly command

viirusiiseli
2013-02-02, 13:10
It's not possible to be completely realistic, and right now the balance and realism are fine except for 2 things, unlocked/guided AA and beyond visual range diving with helis.

Remove those 2 things and neither AA or CAS will be OP.

If you fail to take down a gunship, it's your stupidity, not the helis over poweredness. The point of the game is that skilled people use assets properly, and therefore get kills and win. If you get killed by a gunship, you have done something wrong.

Get killed by apache on kashan while tanking? Didn't have an AAV with you.
Killed on muttrah by a diving cobra? Weren't inside a building as inf/didn't have AA covering your APC.
Killed by enemy gunship while in gunship? Weren't good enough to take him down.

Gunships are not OP. There's always a way to take them down, if you think hard enough you will find it. Instead of telling devs to nerf helis you should concentrate on learning better tactics.

And while I may have 8 CAS montages, I have also lost countless helis to PB kicks, CTDs, lags, AT, AA, enemy helis and a load of other crap. If I recorded the lost helis and the failed attacks for every cas montage you'd get 3 videos of me dying in them or failing to kill the enemies.

therazer
2013-02-02, 13:40
Add more flares to Choppers and Jets. Real HP to choppers. (Mi28 die from single rocket????)
Remove diving. Increase Laser View distance(is it possible?)

[F|H]Zackyx
2013-02-02, 13:41
I dont why people whant to destroy the gameplay its unbelievable Infantry are almost imune to Cas stay in a building and nothing can happen to you since building are made from outer space materials
who can resist every thing. There is no building destruction on Pr Armor and infantry can hide below bulding and bunkers and stay safe.

Give to chopper all real life features and nerf arcarde stuff but dont nerf the arcade stuff to give some sort of balance that is just bullshit if you whant realisme give us everything but not just the part that you want.

Its not because you got killed by a chopper that choppers are op ! maybe you should not run in the open stay in cover and brig AA with you.

Professorson
2013-02-02, 14:27
i'd love to see all the people who call helis OP use it and rack up the kills :P something is only OP if any random can use it and own with it

Smiddey723
2013-02-02, 14:33
You're saying that a CAS chopper can be OP if a good crew is manning it. Well what's the purpose of that, anything would be considered as OP if properly manned then, a tank is also overpowered if a very experienced and good crew is operating it?

Good pilots can do well with a chopper, people lacking experience can be killed easy. Isn't that the purpose of the game itself, having more experienced people for all kind of vehicle?

nAyo has it spot on here

MaxBooZe
2013-02-02, 14:33
Remove the dive, problems solved.

Stemplus
2013-02-02, 17:24
I don't see anything OP in diving, you just need 2 AAs close to each other (but not too close) of any kind, and enemy chopper is going to die if he will dive on you. I know it's terribly unrealistic to dive, but you can't attack your target from 3 km which is unrealistic too. If diving is going to get removed, then CAS helicopters should be able to see lock boxes and lock onto them from further away.

[F|H]Zackyx
2013-02-02, 17:31
I don't see anything OP in diving, you just need 2 AAs close to each other (but not too close) of any kind, and enemy chopper is going to die if he will dive on you. I know it's terribly unrealistic to dive, but you can't attack your target from 3 km which is unrealistic too. If diving is going to get removed, then CAS helicopters should be able to see lock boxes and lock onto them from further away.

I agree !

ExeTick
2013-02-02, 17:53
I don't see anything OP in diving, you just need 2 AAs close to each other (but not too close) of any kind, and enemy chopper is going to die if he will dive on you. I know it's terribly unrealistic to dive, but you can't attack your target from 3 km which is unrealistic too. If diving is going to get removed, then CAS helicopters should be able to see lock boxes and lock onto them from further away.

then AA should be able to lock you on from the same distance you see that lockbox.

Stemplus
2013-02-02, 18:04
then AA should be able to lock you on from the same distance you see that lockbox.

True, but then, it should only apply to certain kinds of AAs, because on muttrah or jabal, or any maps without heavy attack choppers normal choppers would be completely raped.

ExeTick
2013-02-02, 19:17
easier to make it harder to dive with heavy attack choppers then :)

Mikemonster
2013-02-02, 19:20
To be fair if CAS helis had an altitude that was below the view distance it might mean they don't have free roam over the map like they do currently.

They could fly 'behind enemy lines' but it would be a bit risky, as they'd have to fly past/over any potential AA and then be a bit trapped between this and an enemy helo if it turned up. As well as knowing that anyone on the ground could have a pot shot at them from a hidden (old) FOB. And obviously they'd have to return as well.

It's my understanding from the DCS: Black Shark forums that heli on heli combat is generally be avoided by both sides unless one has the clear advantage (and even then would be wary about being lured over an AA trap). They certainly wouldn't go hunting for each other like in PR, to become king of the battlefield for 20mins. The stingers that were trialled were to protect from marauding enemy jets, if I understand correctly - defensive armament. Although it's hard to find sources for or against.

Stemplus
2013-02-02, 19:38
Choppers are flying behind enemy lines a lot of times, you just probably don't see it because when doing that they fly really far away and move quickly so it can seem like they dive, especially on maps like Iron Eagle and Black Gold, you can't even hear them when they are far enough.


And yes, AA missiles on choppers are for defence, and they are used offensively in PR, yet they are only used in the first 10 seconds of the dogfights, and then it turns into a fight of hydras, hellfires and cannon.



So back to topic, in my opinion making it very hard (but not impossible) to dive and increasing the range of hellfires just by a tiny tiny bit so they can shoot a bit over the view distance would be perfect, because they would have to stay still otherwise they would just fly into the AA range like it is happening now, in other words they would have to hover, making them an extremely easy target to APCs, tanks, 50.cal, TOWs, HATs, other AAs, pretty much everything. Ofc, they could also do a fly-by attack, but that would mean they would fly straight into the AA.

ExeTick
2013-02-02, 20:06
increasing the range of hellfires means every map need longer view distance.

I think hellfires have unlimited range in PR so all that have to be changed is viewdistance.

in my opinion making it very hard (but not impossible) to dive and increasing the range of hellfires just by a tiny tiny bit so they can shoot a bit over the view distance would be perfect, because they would have to stay still otherwise they would just fly into the AA range like it is happening now

looks like you want to make AA useless against all cas.
If cas can shoot outside viewrange they can most likely fly away outside viewdistance.

Stemplus
2013-02-02, 20:25
no, you don't need to increase the view distance, just let the chopper lock i.e. 100 meters behind the view distance, but to make it useful, the chopper would have to hover etc etc. And as I said before, AA vehicles would have the same lock on range as the hellfires (extra 100m). Remember, it would only make sense if choppers couldn't dive, so if the chopper would shoot outside of VD it would be an easy target for other assets.



PS, I remember a 10 pages topic about AAs being OP...

40mmrain
2013-02-02, 20:43
i'd love to see all the people who call helis OP use it and rack up the kills :P something is only OP if any random can use it and own with it

I'm a pro pilot and gunner anyone can verify this 8-)

I just think it's gotten to the point where CAS choppers dont act as the sum of a whole team, but rather as individualists, which is unlike any other asset. That's kind like my thesis actually. Whoops, I dont study english, probably should have included that at the start of my OP

SuperHornet
2013-02-02, 21:22
I'm a pro pilot and gunner anyone can verify this 8-)

I just think it's gotten to the point where CAS choppers dont act as the sum of a whole team, but rather as individualists, which is unlike any other asset. That's kind like my thesis actually. Whoops, I dont study english, probably should have included that at the start of my OP

https://7chan.org/7ch/src/13576777529.gif

You can say the same about tanks, APCs, AAVs and even infantry. What about tanks up in A1 on Kashan just sitting there and "flanking" ? Hows that different from a helicopter flying around above 1,300 ?

Jafar Ironclad
2013-02-02, 22:11
So the consensus that you all have arrived at, from my perspective:

-The ability of helicopters to dive on targets (and survive) should be reduced in some way, probably with a tweak to physics.
-Attack helos are not keen on flying low to engage targets due not only to AA dangers, but to surface-to-surface weapons, thus relying on diving tactics, or engaging targets known to not have AA cover.
-One of the main "working" counters to diving helicopters is other helicopters, thanks to their carried air-to-air missiles. Once these are gone, opponent is perceived as having air superiority (even though well-used AA will make clear otherwise).

Less consensus:
-Attack Helicopters are strong, but their thin skin helps level the playing field. (Except for CAS Hueys, which, by the way, we're fixing.)

This sound about right?

ExeTick
2013-02-02, 22:26
-The ability of helicopters to dive on targets (and survive) should be reduced in some way, probably with a tweak to physics.

should be like cobra and tiger heavy attack helicopters. its hard to get out from a dive in those.

Stemplus
2013-02-02, 23:04
Hard to get out of a dive with cobra? Exe, what have you been smoking, its the easiest attack chopper to dive in PR. Just flip it to the side with A-D keys, and then roll the heli sideways untill its horizontal you wont loose much alt and you'll be out of the dive in 5 seconds. Now, Jafar: You're correct, plus the fact that right now diving is the only way to kill an AA. Without diving attack choppers would turn useless in current PR. The counter for it on maps like kashan is to hit the target from above the clouds and from very far away. The problem is that on maps with short VD doing that kind of thing or doing a fly-by attack would be retarded, since AA can kill you from twice as far as you can hit him (VD - 650m, AA range - 1300m). That is why I suggested to increase the HF range so it can shoot 100-200m behind the VD. Ofc it would have to hover to make it any usefull, bla bla bla, etc etc.

lucky.BOY
2013-02-02, 23:13
What i have a problem with is the odd level design, that is putting two CAS chopper into opposition in the first place. There should not be a scenario where one CAS chopper has to defeat opposing CAS chopper to win air superiority. Think again about what CAS stands for.

I think ther eshould be only two scenarios including CAS choppers. Granted air superiority, like in Muttrah, where Opfor is not operating any CAS assets whatsoever. In these scenarios The CAS on one side is opposed only by ground forces of the other side, and map can be tweaked with that in mind to keep it balanced

The other scenario is both teams having CAS choppers as well as fighter jets. This way the air superiority would be fought over by fighter jets, not CAS assets, and more importantly these CAS helicopters would have their own predator, unlike they have atm.

lucky.BOY
2013-02-02, 23:18
HNow, Jafar: You're correct, plus the fact that right now diving is the only way to kill an AA. Without diving attack choppers would turn useless in current PR. The counter for it on maps like kashan is to hit the target from above the clouds and from very far away. The problem is that on maps with short VD doing that kind of thing or doing a fly-by attack would be retarded, since AA can kill you from twice as far as you can hit him (VD - 650m, AA range - 1300m). That is why I suggested to increase the HF range so it can shoot 100-200m behind the VD. Ofc it would have to hover to make it any usefull, bla bla bla, etc etc.

Why should aircraft be trying to kill Anti-Aircraft again? You dont see tanks and IFv hunting for HATs and TOWs, they are scared of them as they should be. Why are not CAS choppers scared of AA in the same way, why they dont let the rest of the team kill it for them?
Somebody brought up rock-paper-scissor in this thread, why it does not work here the same as on teh rest of the battlefield?

40mmrain
2013-02-03, 00:19
You can say the same about tanks, APCs, AAVs and even infantry. What about tanks up in A1 on Kashan just sitting there and "flanking" ? Hows that different from a helicopter flying around above 1,300 ?
indeed and theyre mostly unsuccessful, correct?

the useful armour is on flags, and right next to the inf

L4gi
2013-02-03, 00:41
I'm a pro pilot and gunner anyone can verify this 8-)

I just think it's gotten to the point where CAS choppers dont act as the sum of a whole team, but rather as individualists, which is unlike any other asset. That's kind like my thesis actually. Whoops, I dont study english, probably should have included that at the start of my OP

How the hell is it the assets fault? Its the fucking idiots crewing them that are the problem. I feel sad for the regular pubbies who have never played in an organized match to see how air and ground assets actually work together as a team.

Id rather have a less skilled crew supporting the team than a better crew hunting for enemy cas and doing their own thing. Theres no point to change something that has its roots in player behavior and/or competency.

Its the internet and everyone has an opinion, but luckily I can choose who I play with...

Heavy Death
2013-02-03, 00:53
Jafar Ironclad;1860797']So the consensus that you all have arrived at, from my perspective:

-The ability of helicopters to dive on targets (and survive) should be reduced in some way, probably with a tweak to physics.
-Attack helos are not keen on flying low to engage targets due not only to AA dangers, but to surface-to-surface weapons, thus relying on diving tactics, or engaging targets known to not have AA cover.
-One of the main "working" counters to diving helicopters is other helicopters, thanks to their carried air-to-air missiles. Once these are gone, opponent is perceived as having air superiority (even though well-used AA will make clear otherwise).

Less consensus:
-Attack Helicopters are strong, but their thin skin helps level the playing field. (Except for CAS Hueys, which, by the way, we're fixing.)

This sound about right?

Yes, choppers themselves arent so OP, its the comparison to real life counterpart that makes them look ridiculously OP. Only so much can be done with this engine, sadly, so i hope you get the most out of it.

chrisweb89
2013-02-03, 01:04
Why should aircraft be trying to kill Anti-Aircraft again? You dont see tanks and IFv hunting for HATs and TOWs, they are scared of them as they should be. Why are not CAS choppers scared of AA in the same way, why they dont let the rest of the team kill it for them?

I hunt TOWs and HATs all the time in armour, if a teammate spots it I am going to try to kill it.

Yes, choppers themselves arent so OP, its the comparison to real life counterpart that makes them look ridiculously OP. Only so much can be done with this engine, sadly, so i hope you get the most out of it.

I don't get what you are saying here, RL attack choppers are even more powerful than they are in this game. Attack choppers are expected to destroy 17 times it's production cost (Role and Control of Weapons in the 1990s - Frank Barnaby - Google Books (http://books.google.ca/books?id=Lf_-kqS5gn4C&pg=PA15&dq=&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false)).

Kaland
2013-02-03, 01:37
Zackyx;1860616']I dont why people whant to destroy the gameplay its unbelievable Infantry are almost imune to Cas stay in a building and nothing can happen to you since building are made from outer space materials
who can resist every thing. There is no building destruction on Pr Armor and infantry can hide below bulding and bunkers and stay safe.


Sounds like a complaint tbh, the reason it's like that is beacuse BF2 can only handle so many destroyables before the maps can't run them anymore( they crash)

Not the devs fault, but it's how the engine is made, it simply can't handle more.

Professorson
2013-02-03, 02:46
I'm a pro pilot and gunner anyone can verify this 8-)



joking right ?

Jafar Ironclad
2013-02-03, 03:38
Let's be careful with the thread, guys. Less at each other, more at yourselves and your observations. Experience and skill are assumed. :)

We're getting a lot of useful feedback here, so let's keep it to that.

And yes, the reality is that were attack helicopters (and fixed-wing aircraft, really) modelled to their full real-life footprint, ground battles would be pointless; it'd just be a shooting gallery for the gunships. Our main ace in the hole here in constraining their power is view distance, as well as invincible structures (not that we have much choice with either). The attack helicopter's effective strike range (and ground AA ability to return fire) aren't going to be getting changed all that much.

Those of you who have remained civil and on-topic here, you have my heartfelt thanks. Hopefully I'll have a chance to answer some of your concerns in an upcoming Devcast.

40mmrain
2013-02-03, 04:37
How the hell is it the assets fault?

by being capable of tactics that facilitate that of course. Jets simply are incapable of those tactics because they require lazes. Tanks are incapable of going alone because their counters are numerous, and they are usually more successful not alone. Helicopters are capable of going alone, so they do.

For example a tank battalion could have 3 tanks together, and an AAV. This requires cohesion between two squads. However in current PR, one helicopter, which is only part of one squad would easily counter that. However with improved AA, and physics, then it would require a spotter team, or a separate squad leader lazing. So two squads together beats two. In the same regard, if the tanks didnt have an AAV squad to work with them, then it would only require 1 squad, the helicopter to defeat them. But wait there's more, if the tank squad were to be a hybrid of tank and AAV at once, then they would be shorthanded tanks, and be defeated by enemy armour that works with friendly AAVs, and thus we see more teamwork would be conducive to victory, which is the goal of PR.

8-)

chrisweb89
2013-02-03, 06:04
by being capable of tactics that facilitate that of course. Jets simply are incapable of those tactics because they require lazes. Tanks are incapable of going alone because their counters are numerous, and they are usually more successful not alone. Helicopters are capable of going alone, so they do.

For example a tank battalion could have 3 tanks together, and an AAV. This requires cohesion between two squads. However in current PR, one helicopter, which is only part of one squad would easily counter that. However with improved AA, and physics, then it would require a spotter team, or a separate squad leader lazing. So two squads together beats two. In the same regard, if the tanks didnt have an AAV squad to work with them, then it would only require 1 squad, the helicopter to defeat them. But wait there's more, if the tank squad were to be a hybrid of tank and AAV at once, then they would be shorthanded tanks, and be defeated by enemy armour that works with friendly AAVs, and thus we see more teamwork would be conducive to victory, which is the goal of PR.

8-)

Are you joking that the attack choppers don't have numerous counters? They are super fragile, especially for their offensive power. One AAV and 3 tanks isn't easily countered by 1 attack chopper. It requires intel, lases and the AAV not staying hidden. The way I see tanhk combat most of the time is if you can't kill it with 2 tanks, you can't kill it wih 3 either. When I do run tank squads I run an AAv with them so 2 tanks, and an AAV and it is well worth the trade off.

ShockUnitBlack
2013-02-03, 07:46
This could all go back to chrisweb's previous suggestion in favor of removing helicopter AA missiles.

Stemplus
2013-02-03, 10:09
For example a tank battalion could have 3 tanks together, and an AAV. This requires cohesion between two squads. However in current PR, one helicopter, which is only part of one squad would easily counter that. However with improved AA, and physics, then it would require a spotter team, or a separate squad leader lazing. So two squads together beats two. In the same regard, if the tanks didnt have an AAV squad to work with them, then it would only require 1 squad, the helicopter to defeat them. But wait there's more, if the tank squad were to be a hybrid of tank and AAV at once, then they would be shorthanded tanks, and be defeated by enemy armour that works with friendly AAVs, and thus we see more teamwork would be conducive to victory, which is the goal of PR.

8-)

Wait wait wait...

- If you are running 2 tanks and 1 AAV, then you can't get attacked by enemy chopper. If the enemy is doing the same, then you have a fair 2v2 tank fight.
- If you are running 2 tanks + AAV and enemy is running 3 tanks and no AAV, you call CAS on him, CAS is happy and you are safe.
- If you are running 3 tanks and no AAV, you get killed by enemy CAS, which is completely fine.

I don't see how you need 2 squads for this to be fair. Indeed, choppers and AAs need some tweaks, but I don't see this more unfair than a squad running 2 BMPs and 1 AAV. They can kill FOBs with HEFRAG, they can kill tanks with ATGMs, they can kill APCs with AP, they can kill infantry with HE, they can kill choppers/jets with AAV. I don't see how this is less OP than a chopper that takes 5-10 AP hits or a single AA missile to die.

MADsqirrel
2013-02-03, 11:11
To be honest i dont think CAS choppers are OP.
The effectiveness of the chopper is dependent of the skill of the crew.
Choppers can hunt alone yes, but its never as effective as it is with spotters on the ground.
With a good spotter and lazes it is extremly hard for the enemy to counter your CAS. But a CAS chopper hunting on its own is a lot less dangerous but good enough to hunt down solo Tanks/APCs or single FOBs, but only if the enemy team isnt aware of the threat (or when nobody wants to do AA)
Communication and Teamwork are the Keys!

chrisweb89
2013-02-03, 11:16
I hate doing CAS without a competant spotter, even with the team giving intel and possibly lases I would always rather have a spotter who's full time job is giving me shit to blow up, and trying to keep me alive without worrying about an inf squad to lead.

A roaming chopper flying without intel is often a dead one even in the open deserts of kashan if someone is smart enough to use it's counter, AA. Just like that tank doing the super 1337 flank around the map dies pretty easy to a smart HAT or TOW.

[F|H]Zackyx
2013-02-03, 12:51
Tanks are incapable of going alone because their counters are numerous, and they are usually more successful not alone. Helicopters are capable of going alone, so they do.



Now im sure you have absolutely no clue what you're saying Try to find you own target agaisnt a decent team in muttrah you will be dead instantly, try to scout above Kashan bunker the same, try above burning sands city ....

Only way to find you own target with cas chopper is to fly a medium altitude on edges of the map to find lone wolf tanks or to scout uncapable flags for fobs or mortars flyng above the front line below the visual range is suicide and useless.

Cas need spoters ! maybe you played to much Coop and your confused between Deployment and coop

Notice: User warned for insulting other forum users

Jafar Ironclad
2013-02-03, 13:06
Let's be careful with the thread, guys. Less at each other, more at yourselves and your observations.

Zackyx;1860956']Now im sure you have absolutely no clue what you're saying Try to find you own target agaisnt a decent team in muttrah you will be dead instantly, try to scout above Kashan bunker the same, try above burning sands city ....

Only way to find you own target with cas chopper is to fly a medium altitude on edges of the map to find lone wolf tanks or to scout uncapable flags for fobs or mortars flyng above the front line below the visual range is suicide and useless.

Cas need spoters ! maybe you played to much Coop and your confused between Deployment and coop

I see the point you are trying to make, Zackyx, but I believe you could have made it in a nicer tone.

We're starting to go around in circles discussion-wise, and I'm sensing some hostility going around, so I have locked this thread while its good. I believe all of the essential ground on this subject has been covered. Stay tuned for discussion of changes in a future devcast.

Thanks for the feedback, everyone!