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sold67
2012-12-24, 04:21
Removed.

Rhino
2012-12-24, 04:47
The Stinger you will happily hear is only a place holder for the Blowpipe. While the Stinger missile was used in the Falklands war, it was only used by the SAS and only one guy was 100% trained on the system, and he died along with others in a chopper crash iirc 1/2 way though the war, with also loosing a bunch of Stinger missiles with it.

The MANPAD aka, handheld AA we hope to make in the future to replace both the Stinger and the SA-7 for both sides (since both used it) is the Blowpipe Missile:
http://i.imgur.com/k7dAi.jpg

As posted here yesterday: https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f354-community-maps/112321-map-goose-green-2km-wip-pr-f-18.html#post1846207
Rhino;1846207']Will the blowpipe be as good as the stinger or no? The stinger is really good.

Well in r/l, the Blowpipe was utter crap, with less than 10% (possibly even as low as 3%) of all the missiles fired during the war hit their targets.

This is mainly down to its Manual command to line of sight (MCLOS) guidance system, ie, you need to manually guide the missile onto the target in basically the same way a TOW missile is guided ingame, and we all know how hard it would be to hit a jet with one of them :p

When the blowpipe model is done I do plan on trying out a MCLOS guidance system to see how it works in BF2, but with how poor it performed in r/l, mixed with BF2's lag (so to the user it may look like the missile is perfectly tracking the target, but in fact, isn't (normal AA missiles guided by code struggle to hit their targets due to lag...) and how many jets are ingame and to the guys on the ground, sometimes their only defence is a MANPAD, I'm not sure how well its going to work...

As such, we will most likely just have a Blowpipe model, but it locking onto heat targets in much the same way the Stinger dose as we don't want to give troops a totally useless weapon, but possibly with a shorter lock range and stuff like that.

BTW if anyone is up for modelling the Blowpipe its one of the Falklands Community Tasks listed here :D
https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f388-pr-bf2-community-modding/110920-falklands-community-tasks.html


As for how ineffective the Skyraider is on GG, this is what I wrote on that matter the other day in the GG topic linked above:
Rhino;1844219']
In terms of how effective the skyraider is going to be, it really very much depends on both a mixture of how good the pilot is, and how good the guys on the ground at calling in for CAS. If the skyraider stays out of combat until called in for CAS, then I see it being highly effective, in the same way the Cobra on Muttrah can be highly effective, but in the wrong hands doesn't even make a dent.

I've yet to fly it myself on GG to really see but flying it on the main Falklands map, it can be highly effective I know that. Best thing in the Argies gear for taking out the what was the Scimitar, now the Scorpion (and even more effective vs Scorpion since the Scimi would try to take pot shots at you as you flew at it/away from it with its automatic 30mm cannon :p) and on the main Falklands map you have to try and dodge enemy Harriers at the same time and the enemy can spot you from 3kms away :p

The last thing we really want is something that is going to totally obliterate the enemy even in the hands of the worst pilots since they don't have anything to fight against it :p

sold67
2012-12-24, 05:54
Removed.

Rhino
2012-12-24, 06:25
You may just need to learn how to use your flares more, although iirc, the A1H doesn't have that many flares, but what you need to do is put the flares between you and the enemy, then the lock they have on you will be broken and you can get a clean escape :D

And ye, deployable AA will remain the Stinger for the Brits mainly because there wasn't a "LML" version afaik.

But ye, at the end of the day, it all comes down to how well the trials of the MCLOS guidance system works ingame. The more I think about it the more I think that it might be just possible to do in such a way that makes it still somewhat effective, just requiring skill to use well and also has the advantage of not being disrupted by flares, but will not know until we try it out ingame.

EDIT: also in r/l, and I can also see it being very true (if not more so) ingame, is the MCLOS guidance system was most effective against slow, low flying targets, ie, the A-1H (and choppers). If anything it could well be far more effective than the stinger, since it doesn't have a lock timer (Will have a long ass deploy time naturally), it ignores flares totally and the only countermeasure against it is good flying, although the pilot won't even be getting a lock on tone to warn him, he's being targeted (unless we add in the same thing tanks in vBF2 got a lock tone when a AT weapon was pointed at them, but where not technically being "locked on", but this would be unrealistic I'm pretty damn sure). Just think at how people fire the stinger from the hip now without it tracking, at low flying targets and while I have ideas to avoid the exact same thing with the Blowpipe (in basically the same way we are stopping it on the stinger in v1.0) but still, tracking targets with manually firing towards them could be very effective at closish range.

lucky.BOY
2012-12-24, 15:46
What about giving Argentine stinger in the mean time, too? Since they both had the same MANPADs, giving them the same placeholder seems reasonable to me. Would also stop possible stinger>Strela disussions...

As for giving the pilot a lock-on tone in case MCLOS would actually work ingame. It is as realistic as giving him one when an infrared missile locks on him. You dont have a warning in both cases. Both missiles are passive.
Yet we have it, so why not have it for MCLOS, too?

Rhino
2012-12-24, 15:58
What about giving Argentine stinger in the mean time, too? Since they both had the same MANPADs, giving them the same placeholder seems reasonable to me. Would also stop possible stinger>Strela disussions...

The Argies did have a limited number of SA-7's in the Falklands, in basically the same amount that the Brits had Stingers:
http://i.imgur.com/k4K8v.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/OpxDt.jpg

From the SA-7's wiki page:
Falklands War
Strela-2M missiles were available to Argentinian troops in the Falkland Islands during the Falklands War. War Machine Encyclopedia gives no launch recorded, but several missiles were captured.[37] The missiles were supplied by Libya.[38]

The bigger problem is really that the SA-7 code wise is much worse than the stinger, not really sure why...

As for giving the pilot a lock-on tone in case MCLOS would actually work ingame. It is as realistic as giving him one when an infrared missile locks on him. You dont have a warning in both cases. Both missiles are passive.
Yet we have it, so why not have it for MCLOS, too?

Ye true, although it is possible to detect a launch of an IR missile in r/l (basically what we simulate ingame since we don't have targeting warning, only lock warning) but not very accurate and think that tech is more modern than 1982 :p
So ye, don't see why not either.

40mmrain
2012-12-25, 00:23
you could just give the blowpipe the Strela's current coding. In my opinion the stinger is simply too accurate to balance against the pucara/skyraider, but the strela would be appropriate.

risegold8929
2012-12-25, 02:03
Whenever I flew the Skyraider on the falklands I found myself getting killed by the Stinger quite easily. For example on the map "The Falklands" I was Flaring as I came in firing my rockets and cannon, I turn away at the end of my run (while flaring), and I am instantly killed by a stinger (which I believe to be the stinger as I did not recieve any lock and it is the only handheld AA the Brits have, and all enemy jets were down). The Skyraider is extremely fragile to enemy handheld AA who can abuse the hipfiring glitch to take out the skyraider (which is forced to travel in a straight line at its target in order to release its payload providing an excellent target for people who know how to abuse this glitch) as it is quite slow when compared to other jets.
The Skyraiders slow-ish speed in combination with its forced attack run make it severely disadvantaged when facing the handheld Stinger.

The only way to fix this problem I believe is to fix the hip firing glitch which will balance this issue out and provide both sides an equal chance of using and destroying assets, which as Rhino said, will be done in version 1.0 although I would, naturally, prefer it to have been added in v0.98 as it severely limits the Skyraiders capabilities.

sold67
2012-12-25, 02:25
Removed.

risegold8929
2012-12-25, 02:38
If you don't fly in a staright line, you will most likely not hit the target with most of your payload as you are pointing in all different directions as you turn and swerve while firing at your target. (I am talking about the straight line while actually attacking the target, ie in a Dive). As you are diving on your target and firing you are travelling in a straight line (or atleast straight enough to be within the stingers explosion radius), making you prone to the stinger hipfire glitch and there is not a thing you can do about it unless you cut your firing down to a 1/4 of what you could otherwise do and turn prematurely.

sold67
2012-12-25, 02:49
Removed.

pedrooo14
2012-12-25, 15:30
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucky.BOY View Post
What about giving Argentine stinger in the mean time, too? Since they both had the same MANPADs, giving them the same placeholder seems reasonable to me. Would also stop possible stinger>Strela disussions...
The Argies did have a limited number of SA-7's in the Falklands, in basically the same amount that the Brits had Stingers:
This image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 800x600.

This image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 640x271.


From the SA-7's wiki page:
Quote:
Falklands War
Strela-2M missiles were available to Argentinian troops in the Falkland Islands during the Falklands War. War Machine Encyclopedia gives no launch recorded, but several missiles were captured.[37] The missiles were supplied by Libya.[38]
The bigger problem is really that the SA-7 code wise is much worse than the stinger, not really sure why...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucky.BOY View Post
As for giving the pilot a lock-on tone in case MCLOS would actually work ingame. It is as realistic as giving him one when an infrared missile locks on him. You dont have a warning in both cases. Both missiles are passive.
Yet we have it, so why not have it for MCLOS, too?
Ye true, although it is possible to detect a launch of an IR missile in r/l (basically what we simulate ingame since we don't have targeting warning, only lock warning) but not very accurate and think that tech is more modern than 1982
So ye, don't see why not either.


The Strella were triangulated by Peru from Libia, with poor instructions of how to use them. As i know a few Strellas were fired by leutenant D`aloia from the Harriet. About the effectiveness....was very low, he said there where simply, cheaper and rustic. typically russian. He made a test launch and a few days later fired one into a harrier, the missile fall to the ground hiting the rocks and activate his engine, going from rock to rock with no control, hiting a empty carp and falling into the sea. That because he forgot to rise up the weapon before pulling the trigger, (takes a second to activate the missile reactor)

About the Blowpipes, they were very good (compared with strella of course), and is not hard to guide the missile to the aircraft, one missile fired with necessary aiming time in Gran Malvina (the west island) shoot down a harrier. And the arg manpads have no much use was because the harriers appears quicly and surprisingly between mounts.