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Hunt3r
2012-05-28, 08:57
Basically, the trouble with the Bradley in game is that it's basically crap as a tank destroyer right now.

Why, might you ask? A few reasons.

1. IRL Bradleys engage at more than 1000m with TOWs. This makes their gigantic 10 foot stature and clattering diesel engine harder to hear and spot.

2. Given proper terrain, the Bradley can engage targets with nothing more than the TOW launcher and the sights on top of the turret exposed.

3. Cannot compete with it's direct equivalent the BMP-3

Because the game gives the BMP-3 the same capability as the Bradley, but with a faster firing autocannon with greater power, a 100mm HE tosser, lower profile, ability to fire ATGMs immediately from a short halt, and two actually useful MGs in the hull. If we want to assume that these vehicles should be balanced, then the BMP-3 should basically die within a single burst of anything more powerful than 14.5mm AP, the effectiveness of 30mm APBC (yes, that's actually what is used in the autocannon, not APDS) should be drastically reduced compared to the 25mm APDS in the Bradley, and the TOWs on the Bradley should be instant death for any MBT on impact. Oh, and the sights on the Bradley should be moved up to the gunner's optics as they are IRL to make it possible for people to actually be able to set up defensive positions that aren't hilariously easy for an MBT to lolpwn.

TL;DR BMP-3s are OP, Bradleys are broken.

Stealthgato
2012-05-28, 12:43
I'll take a Bradley over a BMP-3 on Kashan anytime. You need to use it properly. I usually kill 2-3 T-72s with the Bradley on Kashan before I lose it.

Rudd
2012-05-28, 13:32
I think the OP just summarised the plot to 'Pentagon Wars'! :D

3rJOXXNCSI0

Bob of Mage
2012-05-28, 18:03
3. Cannot compete with it's direct equivalent the BMP-3

The BMP-3 and M2 Bradley are not meant to be equal. The Bradley was meant to face BMP-2s when it was designed, not BMP-3s. The Bradley is from the early 80s while the BMP-3 was from the end of the decade. In this time it should be no shock that the USSR would try and one up their greatest foe. Such debate is a little point less as the BMP-2 and BMP-2M are going to replace most of the BMP-3s in PR.

[removed this line to avoid people responding to it again, it was needlessly insulting - Spec]

Hunt3r
2012-06-02, 02:55
The BMP-3 and M2 Bradley are not meant to be equal. The Bradley was meant to face BMP-2s when it was designed, not BMP-3s. The Bradley is from the early 80s while the BMP-3 was from the end of the decade. In this time it should be no shock that the USSR would try and one up their greatest foe. Such debate is a little point less as the BMP-2 and BMP-2M are going to replace most of the BMP-3s in PR.

[removed this line to avoid people responding to it again, it was needlessly insulting - Spec]

Yes, the M2A0 and BMP-3 are not meant to be equal.

The M2A2 ODS and BMP-3 should be.

Hunt3r
2012-06-02, 03:42
I'll take a Bradley over a BMP-3 on Kashan anytime. You need to use it properly. I usually kill 2-3 T-72s with the Bradley on Kashan before I lose it.

The problem is that you can't. IRL you can set up from up to about 3 km away, and the only thing you show (if you set up right or are in a fighting emplacement is a TOW launcher and the things that protrude from the roof of the turret.

chrisweb89
2012-06-08, 20:01
The bradley's main drawback in PR is just its design, which if we want to change, we can take the reality out of project reality.
1) Engagements as you know aren't at the same ranges as RL engagements, and because of this we have hellfires shooting at the same range as tank cannons, and HATs going the same distance as TOW missiles, this can't be fixed.
2)There are many hull downs for the Bradley, just like any vehicle in game, there is nothing in its current design that prevents finding a spot where only your turret sticks up.
3)The bradley in my opinion is much better at killing armour, when its missiles are prepared because of the double missiles, and not having to hope for a one shot kill, or finish them off with AP. The BMP is great because of its massive weapons, but thats RL design, something we can't change, and it has its own drawbacks.

The main thing that I wish would change with the current bradley ingame, is a turret unlock time after stopping with TOW loaded of 5 seconds(this isn't a realism number, but a gameplay number), a short loading time when going from AP to TOW, and already stationary(it can't/shouldn't take 15 seconds to switch fire control modes, and a faster missile, currently if you know where a bradley is, you can roll up and kill it before it is bale to fire both missiles at you in a tank because of their long flight time.

Hunt3r
2012-06-10, 06:42
1) Engagements as you know aren't at the same ranges as RL engagements, and because of this we have hellfires shooting at the same range as tank cannons, and HATs going the same distance as TOW missiles, this can't be fixed.
Fair point, but doesn't change the fact that the Bradley can't accomplish it's TD role in game right now.

2)There are many hull downs for the Bradley, just like any vehicle in game, there is nothing in its current design that prevents finding a spot where only your turret sticks up.
That's the thing. The profile of a Bradley under ideal circumstances for a TD role isn't hull down, it's turret down. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/da/Sky-lined_tank.png

Note the difference in profile of the top two photos compared to the bottom two. One is doable to shoot even at long range, the other is just about impossible. The Bradley is fully capable of acquiring and engaging targets from the position that you see in the top two photos.

3)The bradley in my opinion is much better at killing armour, when its missiles are prepared because of the double missiles, and not having to hope for a one shot kill, or finish them off with AP. The BMP is great because of its massive weapons, but thats RL design, something we can't change, and it has its own drawbacks.
The BMP-3 in game is cheap because of the way game mechanics are designed. Yes, it's a drawback that it only can load one missile at a time, but that's hardly a disadvantage when it has an autocannon that fires at 500 rpm. Even when AP doesn't do a ton of damage, the sheer rate of fire makes it incredibly easy to finish off a tank. The Bradley doesn't have this luxury, and firing off a second ATGM takes longer than just finishing off the enemy with AP rounds, which would make sense in the Bradley if it weren't for the fact that it only fires at 200 RPM. Oh, and the fact that the BMP-3 IRL is loaded with APCBC and the Bradley these days fires APFSDS.

The main thing that I wish would change with the current bradley ingame, is a turret unlock time after stopping with TOW loaded of 5 seconds(this isn't a realism number, but a gameplay number), a short loading time when going from AP to TOW, and already stationary(it can't/shouldn't take 15 seconds to switch fire control modes, and a faster missile, currently if you know where a bradley is, you can roll up and kill it before it is bale to fire both missiles at you in a tank because of their long flight time.
1. ATGM flight time should be kept low, the TOW is incredibly slow IRL and it's important to maintain a realistic character in this aspect.

2. Yes, the TOW setup time should be vastly reduced. IRL you don't feel that setup time nearly as much as you do in this game, because at 3km with a turret down pos you spend a drastically lower amount of time staring down the long barrel of a 125mm cannon.

Conman51
2012-06-10, 08:04
The TOW warm up time for the Bradley is really stupid and long. On kashan the Americans are at a bad disadvantage especially since the MEC get the MTLB with TOW and the BMP can pretty much just point and shoot its missile.

Zemciugas
2012-06-10, 10:49
In other words, the op is pissed off because he gets his ass handed to him by a bmp3. No surprise when the bradley is almost as big/high as a tank - easy target for anyone. Furthermore the bradley should stop at main to rearm the 2 rockets. The last time I checked the crew need to manualy reload it by getting out of the apc while the bmp3 haves a autoloader.

TL;DR Bradley design is broken and op wants the bmp3 to be an easy kill for anything.

Also the bradley is not a tank destroyer, it only haves the capability, but it's a troop transport, you shouldn't be going with it against tanks in the frontline, only if there's no other choice.

Hunt3r
2012-06-24, 04:01
The TOW warm up time for the Bradley is really stupid and long. On kashan the Americans are at a bad disadvantage especially since the MEC get the MTLB with TOW and the BMP can pretty much just point and shoot its missile.
This is actually a really good idea. The Bradley should only have the movement penalty for warmup, and 0 warmup for switching from AP/HE, Smoke, to TOW. IRL gunners always raise the TOW as soon as the vehicle stops, and so once it's raised, it stays raised until they move.

In other words, the op is pissed off because he gets his ass handed to him by a bmp3. No surprise when the bradley is almost as big/high as a tank - easy target for anyone. Furthermore the bradley should stop at main to rearm the 2 rockets. The last time I checked the crew need to manualy reload it by getting out of the apc while the bmp3 haves a autoloader.

TL;DR Bradley design is broken and op wants the bmp3 to be an easy kill for anything.

Also the bradley is not a tank destroyer, it only haves the capability, but it's a troop transport, you shouldn't be going with it against tanks in the frontline, only if there's no other choice.

In other words, nice ad hominem argument, you're off to a flying start. No surprise when the Bradley doesn't need to show anything but the gunner sights on top of the turret to engage targets with TOWs. Furthermore you're absolutely idiotic because IRL the Bradley just gets concealed, turns the turret to about 10-11 o'clock and raises the gun up to a high angle, and then people in the back can pop a hatch to reload the TOWs. That's the SOP, and you need to read more about how they work. The BMP3 has an autoloader that is an enormous pain to work with because you must fire off whatever is inside the gun or else you'll have to take an enormous amount of extra time to extract the round. Internal diagrams of a BMP-3 show that there is literally ammo and fuel everywhere inside the crew area, so any hit to the turret or the center of the vehicle will either kill the occupants or light the ammo off, which kills the occupants. The Bradley's storage of ammo is Sherman-esque, where ammo is either in the floor or behind the seats of the hull.

TL;DR You have no idea how it actually works and the BMP-3 IRL is a very easy kill if it isn't careful.

Also the Bradley's deployment is predicated upon it being a tank destroyer, and with proper terrain or prepared position it's identical to one down to being able to reload the ATGMs under armor (although in NBC environments it wouldn't be possible to keep the interior clean), you can go against tanks on the front line, but you certainly shouldn't do so offensively, as you have to count on long range and concealment to buy you time for the ATGM to fly to target.

Learn more about what you're talking about and then maybe you can bring some real concerns to the table.

Sinbe
2012-09-13, 18:09
Hijacking this topic to ask if the Devs are aware that the Bradley on Qwai River can shoot TOW-missiles while moving? I'm guessing that's a bug, but it's been there since forever and it's quite annoying as a suicide attack by the Bradley will actually most of the time kill the tank. Even if the tank gets the first shot, the Bradley only bursts up in flames and can fire a TOW-missile at the tank.

40mmrain
2012-09-13, 18:54
I'd just like to post to agree with the zero warmup time, or near zero of switching to the TOW missile.

I recall an engagement where I was forced to use my bradley to attack south outpost on kashan. We approached it from the north, and snuck up on a bmp-3 sitting there. Because we were moving it would have been impossible to engage with the TOW, so I told my gunner to keep AP rounds loaded. As soon as the silhouette of the bmp was visible, I cut engine, pointed my arc at the BMP and my gunner leaned into the bmp with 25mm, being careful to not overheat, and to not fire too slowly. The BMP didnt return fire for at least 10 seconds, which is a lot of 25mm rounds. when he did, he seemed so calm doing it amidst 25mm fire, he simply pelted us with 30mm at such a rate of fire we lost the fight. I remember seeing AP shells impacting the BMP, from the side mind you, at 1000m wondering when the hell it was going to explode, and trying to stay confident telling my gunner to keep firing.

if the tow operated realistically we could have easily won. Sucks when you outsmart your opponent with a vehicle supposed to be good enough to kill them, but just.. isn't. I've seen countless bmp-3 vs. abrams engagements where the BMP won, but rarely is the bradley worth anything against a bmp, or T72 on kashan. The bradley's cannon loses frequently to the WZ551's on qwai river, being smaller in caliber, and slower in firing, and because of how hard it is to make the TOW useful, that really does hurt the balance of the map.

With 100 player servers coming, I suspect that more armour will be operated simultaneously, so this could screw with kashan's balance more than it does now. Also, i'd like to add that the bradley actually is kind of a piece of crap in real life, but, the abrams is so far superior to the T72 in real life as well, but they are equivalent in PR. If we wish to keep the bradley near worthless in PR, so be it, it's still kind of useful for parking in north vill, and waiting for enemies or something, it isnt totally worthless, but make the Abrams shit all over the T72 like it should.

Hijacking this topic to ask if the Devs are aware that the Bradley on Qwai River can shoot TOW-missiles while moving? I'm guessing that's a bug, but it's been there since forever and it's quite annoying as a suicide attack by the Bradley will actually most of the time kill the tank. Even if the tank gets the first shot, the Bradley only bursts up in flames and can fire a TOW-missile at the tank.

you mean the turret can swivel while on the move? Why do my gunners never tell me this.

oh yeah, and try something for me. Load a HEAT shell in the Type 98, and fire it at a bradley in co-op or a private server or something. I know 125mm of HEAT instantly explodes the MTLB, and tracks or explodes the BMP-3 leaving it impossible for it to return fire, im curious as to what it does to bradley...

tankninja1
2012-09-13, 19:29
I think that the Bradley, and Puma, should be able to move at very low speeds with the TOW deployed, from what I've heard the TOW can be fired from idling speeds, say 5-10mph. A small issue I've noticed too is that the Bradley in-game is the M2A2 but from what I've heard almost all the Bradleys now are M2A3s.

P.S. why are the Strykers, Bradleys, Warriors, Scimitars, and Pumas vulnerable to 14.5mm fire considering all of them are armored to protect against 14.5mm rounds? And 40mmrain that BMP-3 that you engaged on Kashan Desert might have been me (Sgt Hess-[XIII]), and you missed most of your shots, or were a victim of the infamous hit box bug...

40mmrain
2012-09-13, 19:41
P.S. why are the Strykers, Bradleys, Warriors, Scimitars, and Pumas vulnerable to 14.5mm fire considering all of them are armored to protect against 14.5mm rounds?

as far as I know, the bradley, warrior and puma are vulnerable to 14.5 the same way a tank is to 30mm, it takes so many rounds, it's almost negligible. I'm not even sure if two full 50 round 14.5 mags would take out a warrior on the frontal arc.

That's in game, do you have a source on your claims of all those vehicles being totally invulernable in real life? 14.5 is still a pretty big round, though im pretty sure the heavier IFVs are totally invulenrable, based on the fact that 14.5 was basically useless against german tanks in WW2, and that tech is ancient, man

Sinbe
2012-09-13, 22:08
you mean the turret can swivel while on the move? Why do my gunners never tell me this.

Yes, TOW stays fully operational while moving (same way as on BMP-3 and others that use ATGM). Just don't move for 30s (or whatever the time is), switch to TOW, start moving and it never disables itself like it does on Kashan. However if I remember correctly you cannot switch to TOW missiles while on the move. I'm pretty sure it's a bug and I'm surprised that it hasn't been fixed yet. I see it exploited most of the time I play Qwai.

40mmrain
2012-09-13, 23:21
P.S. why are the Strykers, Bradleys, Warriors, Scimitars, and Pumas vulnerable to 14.5mm fire considering all of them are armored to protect against 14.5mm rounds? And 40mmrain that BMP-3 that you engaged on Kashan Desert might have been me (Sgt Hess-[XIII]), and you missed most of your shots, or were a victim of the infamous hit box bug...

oh really? My gunner wasnt that bad I hope, how many rounds does it actually take to kill a bmp at that range with the bradley's gun, that was a while ago, and man did it make me not believe in the bradley at all.