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View Full Version : Helicopters are too armoured


Spartan10k
2011-10-17, 23:32
Just what the title says. Helicopters are just so weak now; I think they need to have more armour and more total health.

Here is a video demonstrating just how weak they are:
Useless rockets - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/embed/eYdMahs_Pqw)






/sarcasm


Seriously, which DEV thought it would be a good idea to make helicopters flying tanks?

Stealthgato
2011-10-17, 23:35
It's just the Hueys that are stupidly though. Supposedly they got a nerf in last patch but are still pretty much invulnerable to AA and LATs. All the rest are fine (except for bleeding but that's been or is being addressed).

Navo
2011-10-17, 23:40
Does anyone still bother with attacking Hueys?

Mikemonster
2011-10-18, 00:09
I don't. It's pointless.

Don't waste AA on a transport Helo is the golden rule. Save it for CAS.

Airtanks will be airtanks.


Although in this case he should have shot the pilots out, it's possible with an RPG. HEADSHOT.

karambaitos
2011-10-18, 00:21
Does anyone still bother with attacking Hueys?

unless its coming toward you, shoot the the window on your left side so you kill the pilot, otherwise if you have anything less than a Tunguska its pointless

Spartan10k
2011-10-18, 00:43
I don't. It's pointless.

Don't waste AA on a transport Helo is the golden rule. Save it for CAS.

Airtanks will be airtanks.


Although in this case he should have shot the pilots out, it's possible with an RPG. HEADSHOT.

Clanmate didn't start recording till I was just about to shoot. I'd only set up maybe a second before I shot. I was aiming for the cockpit, but it hit near the rotor shaft. Your statement is just another example of how the DEV's have fucked up rockets of all types, and made helicopters ungodly strong.

This is an honest question for the DEV's, what were y'all thinking?

Rudd
2011-10-18, 08:17
here's a question for you, why have you put a thread description saying the opposite to what your trying to say?

50cal would have done the job very well, on Cuda for example I use the 50cal APC as an AAA platform

your video is very specific imo, it indicates an increase in AT vs Helicopter power is required, it does not indicate a decrease in overal helicopter armour is required

Next time, less sarcasm, more useful feedback please - I've got enough to do today without having to translate people's feedback to what they actually mean.

B0ng_McPuffin
2011-10-18, 09:01
Rudd;1683530']here's a question for you, why have you put a thread description saying the opposite to what your trying to say?

50cal would have done the job very well, on Cuda for example I use the 50cal APC as an AAA platform

your video is very specific imo, it indicates an increase in AT vs Helicopter power is required, it does not indicate a decrease in overal helicopter armour is required

Next time, less sarcasm, more useful feedback please - I've got enough to do today without having to translate people's feedback to what they actually mean.

SHAZAM!

Anyways... I've always thought that hand-held AA was useless unless you had 2 coordinated soldiers to fire them at the same time at the same chopper. Plenty of times I've hit a transport heli on Muttrah with the hand-held AA or even a LAT and its done nothing but make it smoke a little.

I've actually had more heli-kills with my standard scoped rifle by shooting at landing helis when they slow to a hover and hitting the pilot in the back of the head (so far have 8 kills this way spread over 2 months). One time I got lucky and hit a slighty damaged chopper that eventually started smoking/flaming and went down, but it wasn't like you'd expect a DEDICATED AA missile to do.

Also, it seems like BTRs/MTLBs have an incredibly easy time shooting down transport helis due to round velocity and view distance... they can just walk their stream of rounds onto you and track you for like a whole kilometer it seems like, and they take down helis fast! I've been taken down by more MTLBs than AA assets or AA hand-held missiles. Also, HAT rounds travel in entirely way too straight of a line when pointed up at a heli... you shouldn't be able to realistically hit a heli with a HAT missile repeatedly by learning that "sweet spot" for leading the heli in the air. If you were horizontal to the missile then that makes sense, since its designed to lock onto tanks and other land vehicles and is somewhat less effective against airborne vehicles... but if you land your heli and they have a lock on you, then so be it... but being HAT sniped almost every day is slightly discouraging since you'd assume as a pilot MOST of your threats would be Anti-Air based.

Mikemonster
2011-10-18, 11:51
In real life helis stay well away from any cannon, be it 20mm, 30mm, or 120mm. In PR however the CAS choppers with guided missiles should be able to outrange these (they may well, I don't play assets).

Spartan, my reference to headshotting the pilot as the only way to kill with the RPG was supposed to be tongue in cheek (sarcastic). But like you mention it's the only way to get a kill so sometimes we all go for it.

Rudd, this highlights how ineffectual LATs are against Trans helis, however the MANPAD AA is just as bad, and it can also be spoofed.

Pronck
2011-10-18, 14:56
Wait what? You think that taking down chopper is impossible? I have taken out many Hueys on Jabal and Muttrah by using the BTR and MTLB as a mobile AA-Vehicle. As an Insurgent you should fire with everything you have at it. It is possible to take them out but it requires squad-work!

Stealthgato
2011-10-18, 15:06
Wait what? You think that taking down chopper is impossible? I have taken out many Hueys on Jabal and Muttrah by using the BTR and MTLB as a mobile AA-Vehicle. As an Insurgent you should fire with everything you have at it. It is possible to take them out but it requires squad-work!

Read again. It's LATs and AA that are ineffective against Hueys.

PLODDITHANLEY
2011-10-18, 15:17
On muttrah I'll leave AA once the Cobra's down - waste of time manning it for hueys, same on Barra and Jabal.

Rudd
2011-10-18, 15:43
I guess since the AA vs Groudn vehicles was fixed via materials we could just up the power of the AA missile, atm the chances of being hit are right imo, however when they do hit they should really screw up the heli I agree.

AT vs Helicopters is a material issue, and I'm actually not sure how to approach it, as helicopter surivability is important to gameplay - however it is inconsistent for an APC to be taken out by less AT than a helicopter...I guess, AT prevalence on maps like Ramiel can be very very high, so its not a super simple balance. a bump in AT effectiveness via helicopter by around 20% is probably the simpliest way of doing this, increasing the chance of a catestrophic failure when hit by AT, or ofc in a connected thread we talked about decreaseing the amount of damage bleed does to choppers - so combine that with increasing the critical damage level for helicopters means they have a chance to become inoperable to some degree at a higher HP level.

Dev1200
2011-10-18, 17:57
1. Make AA missiles and AT rockets destroy (or critical) choppers with one shot.
2. ???
3. PROFIT


I would also like to see RPG's requiring 2-3 shots to kill APCS, instead of one shot lighting it on fire, regardless where the round hits.

Rudd
2011-10-18, 19:59
I would also like to see RPG's requiring 2-3 shots to kill APCS, instead of one shot lighting it on fire

that was brought in last version afaik for APCs like the warrior and bradley

karambaitos
2011-10-18, 20:47
Wait what? You think that taking down chopper is impossible? I have taken out many Hueys on Jabal and Muttrah by using the BTR and MTLB as a mobile AA-Vehicle. As an Insurgent you should fire with everything you have at it. It is possible to take them out but it requires squad-work!

too bad the MTLB AA version is completely useless, you hit the huey in the nose, nothing happens, you shoot 3 more, he just flies off with his troll face, you need to have some luck to kill one with that thing

TheComedian
2011-10-18, 21:20
too bad the MTLB AA version is completely useless, you hit the huey in the nose, nothing happens, you shoot 3 more, he just flies off with his troll face, you need to have some luck to kill one with that thing

TBH its much more effective as an infantry suppression platform:-P

40mmrain
2011-10-18, 23:39
attacking a huey with AA missiles is a mistake.

You have to use cannon fire.

Spartan10k
2011-10-19, 01:19
attacking a huey with AA missiles is a mistake.

You have to use cannon fire.

Yeah that's a great option playing as an Insurgent.....wait, no it isn't.

Rudd;1683697']I guess since the AA vs Groudn vehicles was fixed via materials we could just up the power of the AA missile, atm the chances of being hit are right imo, however when they do hit they should really screw up the heli I agree.

AT vs Helicopters is a material issue, and I'm actually not sure how to approach it, as helicopter surivability is important to gameplay - however it is inconsistent for an APC to be taken out by less AT than a helicopter...I guess, AT prevalence on maps like Ramiel can be very very high, so its not a super simple balance. a bump in AT effectiveness via helicopter by around 20% is probably the simpliest way of doing this, increasing the chance of a catestrophic failure when hit by AT, or ofc in a connected thread we talked about decreaseing the amount of damage bleed does to choppers - so combine that with increasing the critical damage level for helicopters means they have a chance to become inoperable to some degree at a higher HP level.

Yeah I guess I'm sorry for the way I presented this the other day. Just had a bad day at work, get home and then this bullshit happens.....I was not a happy camper. And frankly I didn't really think y'all would listen. But what I'd like to see is any type of AT weapon be able to kill a helicopter with 1 hit because we know that even a helicopter as big as a Chinook can be taken down by 1 RPG. I guess it was a couple of patch's ago that helicopters got like this, but usually I don't even bother shooting at the flying tanks with RPG's unless it's the Taliban HAT (which will kill a Black Hawk with 1 hit). I just figured since this was the German LAT that it would be powerful enough to take it down....and the fact the pilot was begging to be shot down by being stupid and running people over; confident in the fact that he couldn't be shot down.

Dev1200
2011-10-19, 04:31
Rudd;1683794']that was brought in last version afaik for APCs like the warrior and bradley

I haven't seen this yet ._.

Th3Exiled
2011-10-19, 11:10
too bad the MTLB AA version is completely useless, you hit the huey in the nose, nothing happens, you shoot 3 more, he just flies off with his troll face, you need to have some luck to kill one with that thing

I was flying today for the first time in over a year. Map was jabal, started as trans and then grabbed CAS when a couple of people grabbed the other choppers. I'll agree that the MTLB is kinda pathetic, I sort of feel bad for the people crewing them. Between me and the other guy flying we killed 3 before 1 of us even died (he was killed by cannon fire I think).

Although, I'm not sure the crew was too competent so that may have played into it. I haven't actually used one myself.

Exiled.

Wispit
2011-10-19, 11:41
I was flying today for the first time in over a year. Map was jabal, started as trans and then grabbed CAS when a couple of people grabbed the other choppers. I'll agree that the MTLB is kinda pathetic, I sort of feel bad for the people crewing them. Between me and the other guy flying we killed 3 before 1 of us even died (he was killed by cannon fire I think).

Although, I'm not sure the crew was too competent so that may have played into it. I haven't actually used one myself.

Exiled.

Na it was a good old high ping spike courtesy of family members :(

But he does have a point for the most part the AA isnt a major threat, i fear the BTRs and the AA MTLB is more deadly if it locks you when you arent expecting it. That said from what i read when it was introduced it has paper thin armour yet it seems the hydras do rather minimal splash damage against it, makes it rather hard to kill (for me anyway).

And we were in the huey which is a bit more resilient then most choppers. (Attack choppers such as the apache are what die so easily and so often to AA) But as rudd said, all you need is a 50.cal and the ability to track a target and they are down, only takes a short burst to kill a huey that way. And personally im happy the way it is.

P.S. point blank AA shots (locks not exactly required) tend to kill as well (which i dont think the gunner of the MTLB knew as i got fairly close to him without him shooting but unfortunately the hydras didnt do much against him. Must compare the splash effect on a BTR i have a feeling they die easier....

Pronck
2011-10-19, 12:08
Read again. It's LATs and AA that are ineffective against Hueys.

Well I meant it as being a tip because people just use 1 or 2 weapons for killing it instead of their whole arsenal they have.

karambaitos
2011-10-19, 12:34
And we were in the huey which is a bit more resilient then most choppers. (Attack choppers such as the apache are what die so easily and so often to AA) But as rudd said, all you need is a 50.cal and the ability to track a target and they are down, only takes a short burst to kill a huey that way. And personally im happy the way it is.



what? it takes less bullets to kill a humvee or a m113 with a 50 than it is to kill a huey, and the attack choppers being so much weaker than a huey is just completely stupid, also it doesnt help that the hueys glass isnt penetrable to a G3 (but the MG3 can penetrate it) and lower calibers

Stealthgato
2011-10-19, 14:43
what? it takes less bullets to kill a humvee or a m113 with a 50 than it is to kill a huey, and the attack choppers being so much weaker than a huey is just completely stupid, also it doesnt help that the hueys glass isnt penetrable to a G3 (but the MG3 can penetrate it) and lower calibers

Indeed, which is why the CAS Hueys are so stupidly overpowered in Barracuda. Chinese should have 2 WZ551s with .50s replaced by one with cannon, or replaced by 2 VN-3s.

Jonathan_Archer_nx01
2011-10-20, 17:38
No, I don't think they should be more vulnerable to rockets. However, helicopters should have some weak spots (with higher damage multiplier) which if you manage to get RPG'd with a precise shot, should cause them to shut down and crash. Engine turbines for example.

=HCM= Shwedor
2011-10-24, 05:34
I've seen hueys survive direct hits by the ERYX and live, its more than just AA rockets and LATs that are ineffective. I've shot hueys with over 50 30mm AP rounds from the MTLB on Muttrah and seen them just shrug it off and go all the way from docks to carrier while on fire and live (using HE is even less effective). I've shot over 16 AA missles at one heli, that NEVER popped flares, on Jabal (I actually went RTB to reload the MTLB) and the huey didn't die. It's really just the Huey that is over armored, the Apache will usually die in one AA rocket (Did I miss something? I thought Apaches were the ones that were armored...)

"CAS Hueys are so stupidly overpowered in Barracuda."
Completely true, in the hands of a semi-decent pilot they will without fails get 30+ kills, in the hands of a great pilot 50+. The trees manage to block any decent AA lock, and even if you managed to fire the AA flares will distract them or the Hueys insane armor will shrug them off. Shooting them with a 50 cal? Just as well off shooting them with a pistol.

Steeps
2011-10-24, 07:42
Any chance you could fix the title? :P



But yeah... I feel weak in any helicopter, takes a few rounds from a .50 cal to take down Kiowas. A Blackhawk cannot survive an RPG.

Sgt. Mahi
2011-10-24, 10:03
Totally agree that the huey is way too resilient to any kind of AT. On Barracuda it's even a complete gamebreaker.

The handheld AA is just pathetic as well.. I cannot count the times I've hit a Kiowa on Kokan with the handheld AA just to see it fly back to base with some white smoke... Just ridiculous.

Anazuke
2011-10-24, 11:33
Seems that Lynx and Chinook are better armored than the APCs on Al Basrah. We shot both with HEAT in point blank range with SPG techy and the results were that Chinook -> Light smoke and Lynx -> Nothing happened, it just flew away without even smoking.

Wispit
2011-10-24, 11:35
I've seen hueys survive direct hits by the ERYX and live, its more than just AA rockets and LATs that are ineffective. I've shot hueys with over 50 30mm AP rounds from the MTLB on Muttrah and seen them just shrug it off and go all the way from docks to carrier while on fire and live

Ive survived a shell from the an SRAW (US HAT) in a WZ551 (Chinese APC) and lived. And once i flew a mig into some silos on op clean sweep and it flipped around and i flew away undamaged...doesnt mean its always like that.

As for the 50 shells ill leave these here....



http://www.xfire.com/video/4f5177/

http://www.xfire.com/video/4f5179/


http://www.xfire.com/video/4f5180/

If i could be bothered id do the same for the 50.cal MTLB and even the WZ55A (though i would suspect its the same as the 50.cal MTLB) And while im probably being arrogant i would like to reitterate my point about being able to track aim and hit a moving target. Count the shots the 30mm took 10 shells up close 11 at distance. Did it a couple of times at different spots/ distances to see the effect, it was none.


p.s. fun fact using HE shells required 14 to be fired before the huey exploded. And a CAS huey took 11 shells of AP (in rapid succesion so the 1 less shell at previous times may be due to bleed out...)

Stealthgato
2011-10-24, 15:36
I've seen hueys survive direct hits by the ERYX and live, its more than just AA rockets and LATs that are ineffective. I've shot hueys with over 50 30mm AP rounds from the MTLB on Muttrah and seen them just shrug it off and go all the way from docks to carrier while on fire and live (using HE is even less effective). I've shot over 16 AA missles at one heli, that NEVER popped flares, on Jabal (I actually went RTB to reload the MTLB) and the huey didn't die. It's really just the Huey that is over armored, the Apache will usually die in one AA rocket (Did I miss something? I thought Apaches were the ones that were armored...)

You're definetly hyperbolizing here. Hueys even with their super AA resistance go down pretty fast to cannon rounds, the 30mm MTLB only needs around 15 hits to destroy one, and I highly doubt you fired over 16 missiles at the same helicopter without it having been repaired inbetween.

mockingbird0901
2011-10-24, 15:49
In my mind the only 'problem' is the Huey vs LAT/AA. I have flown pretty much every chopper in the game for an extended amount of time, only exeption being the Chineese trans chopper, and they all respond in a logical way to being fired upon, with the exeption being the Huey. I have shot down many Kiowas using a AA on Kokan, and have survived quite a few flying it. Best defence choppers should have in my mind is the ability to not get shot at.

=HCM= Shwedor
2011-10-24, 16:05
You're definetly hyperbolizing here. Hueys even with their super AA resistance go down pretty fast to cannon rounds, the 30mm MTLB only needs around 15 hits to destroy one, and I highly doubt you fired over 16 missiles at the same helicopter without it having been repaired inbetween.


Im accounting for the huey being in the air and moving. Shooting a huey sitting still is different. The BF2 hitbox sucks for moving targets, you might hit the target and no damage will be registered, just like that LAT shot on the huey. I'm sure if you shot a huey that was not moving, unpiloted, and on the ground it would start to smoke.

velocity
2011-10-24, 16:17
what? it takes less bullets to kill a humvee or a m113 with a 50 than it is to kill a huey, and the attack choppers being so much weaker than a huey is just completely stupid, also it doesnt help that the hueys glass isnt penetrable to a G3 (but the MG3 can penetrate it) and lower calibers

Give it a try on a co-op server. i killed a pilot with a G3 before on Muttrah by north city hotel. as i shot the pilot out, his uncontrolled huey landed on me.

Mikemonster
2011-10-24, 19:13
I've headshotted an enemy pilot out of a Huey with the G3. That said, i've not had any luck recently so possibly it's changed.

We all know that vehicles vs small arms needs fixing, the helis all have bulletproof glass apparently, as well as the known techie problems, etc etc.

Save the comments on small arms to the appropriate thread in feedback and let's keep this about the Heli armour, the small arms problem is related to the hitbox type or something like that (i.e. it's not related to the armour levels).

karambaitos
2011-10-24, 20:11
Give it a try on a co-op server. i killed a pilot with a G3 before on Muttrah by north city hotel. as i shot the pilot out, his uncontrolled huey landed on me.

i know i emptied 2 mags into a pilots front glass when we were screwing around once, and he didnt die

Wispit
2011-10-25, 07:45
Im accounting for the huey being in the air and moving. Shooting a huey sitting still is different. The BF2 hitbox sucks for moving targets, you might hit the target and no damage will be registered, just like that LAT shot on the huey. I'm sure if you shot a huey that was not moving, unpiloted, and on the ground it would start to smoke.

Well then that isnt through a fault of the huey is it?

It does have a higher resiliance to AA then most other choppers, but it can still often get damaged, a handy trick with AA is to fire a split second before you get the lock and you are almost gauranteed to hit and even kill the chopper.

I cant speak for LATs (never really been hit by them in a huey) but HATs will either kill the huey outright or wound instantly to the point that its f****d. AA varies from doing practically nothing, to wounding it to the point of no more lift, depends on luck (and probably the milliseconds between getting a lock and firing).

PFunk
2011-10-27, 18:35
Best defence choppers should have in my mind is the ability to not get shot at.

Then they tell you you're a bad pilot cause you won't do suicide missions into the middle of firefights. :razz:

Killer2354
2011-11-01, 00:10
Totally agree that the huey is way too resilient to any kind of AT. On Barracuda it's even a complete gamebreaker.

The handheld AA is just pathetic as well.. I cannot count the times I've hit a Kiowa on Kokan with the handheld AA just to see it fly back to base with some white smoke... Just ridiculous.

Late reply but... you should really be using the alt AA for the Taliban. The alt AA gives you a stinger missile which will kill the Kiowa on 1 hit, or make it blow up in 5 seconds. It's better than the Russian made AA because it's: Faster, locks at a longer range, deals more damage, and has a larger explosive radius.

Mikemonster
2011-11-01, 11:19
^ POST OF THE MONTH

Sgt. Mahi
2011-11-10, 12:21
Late reply but... you should really be using the alt AA for the Taliban. The alt AA gives you a stinger missile which will kill the Kiowa on 1 hit, or make it blow up in 5 seconds. It's better than the Russian made AA because it's: Faster, locks at a longer range, deals more damage, and has a larger explosive radius.

lol I never knew there was a alternative AA... I'll keep that in mind, thx :D

6Skrillex6
2011-11-20, 11:44
You gotta be kidding me? Helicopters aren't flying tanks at all. Last night I flew about in a Black Hawk and with one RPG hit we had a massive engine failure and headed straight into the ground.

mockingbird0901
2011-11-20, 14:46
The problem skrillex isn't primarily the BH, but the Huey

Von_Gnome
2011-11-20, 15:16
Huey ingame is also known as "the flying tank" for those who didn't knew it.

6Skrillex6
2011-11-20, 15:42
Well, I realized that and I admit that the Huey is a hard target, but quite frankly, I don't see why they should nerf it. If the Huey is hit it is bound to crash unless it RTB's and also there is a large chance that the men being carried by said chopper will be killed.

Drunkenup
2011-11-20, 18:12
Well, I realized that and I admit that the Huey is a hard target, but quite frankly, I don't see why they should nerf it. If the Huey is hit it is bound to crash unless it RTB's and also there is a large chance that the men being carried by said chopper will be killed.

the Huey is a old, old design, it isn't as well designed to take hits when compared to the Blackhawk, Chinook etc. Plus nerfing it would only help the game in terms of realism.. no more inexperienced pilots flying in and out of fire unscathed. helps realism, and encourages strategy.

Mikemonster
2011-11-24, 16:14
Play Jabal against a full complement of CAS on the US side. We built a FOB in the middle of the desert with a good view, and had both a MANPAD AA covering it as well as the deployed/built Quad Launcher AA thing.

The enemy CAS heli basically circled round because he knew we wouldn't hurt him. He actually came back three times because he was a lousy shot.

Also play Barracuda vs the US ;)

CAS Huey is more lethal than the Cobra.

40mmrain
2011-12-05, 05:37
CAS Huey is more lethal than the Cobra.

I can testify for this. Which in reality is seems unrealistic, but im willing to bet it has something to do with PR's draw distance.

Cobra's cannon and hellfires are good for a kilometer or two, the strela or quad cannon are not (of course you could theoretically hit something with 14.5 at that range, but the quad cannon lacks optics, and hitting something moving fast at such a range would be quite difficult)

ALso the hind, in real life is armoured to withstand up to 23mm, with .50 cal just bouncing off it (this includes the cockpit and rotors). The apache is nearly as well armoured. The z10, havoc, and zulu cobra are comparable.

Mikemonster
2011-12-05, 12:55
Oh absolutely. BF2's engine renders realistic assets impossible due to the view distance.. In 'Real Life' there is a standoff distance for tanks, ATGM's, 14.5 etc, at the moment that just isn't possible. CAS jets are ludicrous on such small maps.