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Old 12-15-2011, 01:23 AM   #11
Pvt.LHeureux
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Default Re: Give incentive for Karabiner 98k kit

Tyso, I think what Ts4EVER meant is that arty pieces planes, bomber planes, tanks, MGs, missiles, etc, all that stuff killed way more people and were more a key in the fights of WW2.


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Old 12-15-2011, 03:13 AM   #12
lucky.BOY
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Default Re: Give incentive for Karabiner 98k kit

Stoickk, I just have to say i love your posts. Always well written, sourced, and contructive. This is the way we should discuss things here.

Back on topic, what about this. People are compaining that BAR is unbalacing it for Yanks, so if we leave BAR as AR for Yanks and limit the use of G43 on wermacht side, it could balance things out, couldn't it?
Assymetrical balance FTW!

-lucky


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Old 12-15-2011, 08:35 AM   #13
Ts4EVER
Default Re: Give incentive for Karabiner 98k kit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyso3 View Post
This is utter crap. Rifles were extremely important in much of WW2.


As PR accuratley shows, most infantry regiments espeially those used on the Wermacht side at Normandy were issued 90% with Rifles.

SMG's had such short range, lack of accuracy and the assault rifle was still in the works.
The K98 was produced in such short supply during the war as it had been mass produced prior.

the MP40 came into play a lot more towards the end as it was cheap, however it was more reserved for Unterofficers and Assault groups.

The power of the Rifle has stayed into effect till this day.
Of course most people had rifles, but (at east in the german system) the MG did 90% of the killing and dealt out 90% of the fire power, which is what wins firefights. And that is only when you look at the infantry squad, once mortars come into the equation, the percentages drop down even more.
In fact, one could argue that unless forced into extreme close combat, riflemen in a German infantry squad were nothing more than glorified ammo carriers for the machine guns. This only changed after the introduction of assault rifles, which is one of the reasons why infantry squads tend to be smaller these days: The single soldier now has noticable firepower at his disposal.

The G43 production numbers actually kind off prove my point, as they were never seen as really important in the big scheme of things. The production of the G43 started in October 1943. By the end of that year, a whopping 21 had reached the frontlines the transportation capacity was reserved for more pressing ressources.


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Old 12-16-2011, 11:41 PM   #14
Stoickk

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Default Re: Give incentive for Karabiner 98k kit

Thanks, Lucky, I appreciate the compliment.

TS, while in terms of casualty numbers, you are partially correct; the MG's and such deal out more raw firepower. This being said, the importance of rifles can not be understated in terms of infantry combat, then or now. Regardless of advances in weapons technology, the rifle has reigned supreme as the weapon of choice for the basic infantryman. Even with assault rifles having burst and automatic fire capabilities, precision rifle fire, one shot at a time, is still the basis of infantry combat, and has been almost since the rifle's inception. There is a reason that even in the 21st century the rifle is the preferred weapon of the Infantryman. If it were all about firepower, or the raw number of rounds down range, the U.S. Army would just issue everyone M240's. They don't. They still issue M16's. Even during the Vietnam War era, when full automatic fire was seen as preferable to precise semi-automatic fire, rifles were still issued as the basic infantryman's weapon. Even during that time, the U.S. had the industrial capabilities to issue every soldier with an M60, but did not. Let's say weight is the only consideration. Enter the M249 Squad Automatic Weapon. At approximately 16 pounds, that weapon is a full ten pounds lighter than the M60. This still was not issued as the primary infantryman's weapon. Whether in World War II or today, the rifle is still at the heart of infantry warfare.

The basic infantry rifle had been a major contributing factor in warfare up to the beginning of World War II, and the K98 was one of the best rifles of its time, which should be noted began prior to World War I as the Gewehr 98 (the K98 is simply a shortened version; the action and function are unchanged). Nazi Germany failed to compete effectively with the U.S. produced M1 Garand and the Soviet Tokarev SVT 40. This can partially be blamed on Germany's obsession with new technology, but to a greater extent on the proven battlefield success of the K98. Initially, the K98 was seen by German military leadership as one of the few areas in the Wehrmacht that did not need significant improvement, thus the research and development efforts were focused elsewhere. Other significant military forces of the period used bolt action rifles, such as the Lee Enfield SMLE of the British Army (and many others) and the Springfield M1903 of the United States (the M1 Garand was initially in short supply, and the M1903 was issued regularly as a stopgap measure until approximately 1942). Early battlefield reports backed up these beliefs. The rifle had proven accuracy at ranges up to 2000m, legendary reliability, a ready supply of parts and ammunition, and such a simple design that it was very easy to train soldiers on. These were all contributing factors to the Mauser K98's success. The characteristics of warfare had changed dramatically by World War II, however, and extreme accuracy to the level of the K98 was not nearly as important as sustained rate of fire. Specifically, it was not until the Nazis encountered significant resistance at the hands of the Soviets, armed with the new Tokarev SVT 40's, that feelings on this subject began to change. In fact, the captured Tokarev SVT 40 rifles were the basis for the design of the Gewehr 41, which was later improved to the Gewehr 43.

The M1 Garand had several of the same qualities of the K98: reliability, simplicity of design, ease of use, a high degree of accuracy, and a ready supply of parts and ammunition. What the Garand also had that the K98 lacked was a high sustained rate of fire due to being semi-automatic versus bolt action as well as having a much faster reload time. These two major improvements allowed U.S. infantrymen to provide a much higher volume of firepower on the battlefield than their German counterparts. By the time that leadership of the Third Reich realized their mistake and began to take steps to adopt a semi-automatic rifle as standard armament for the Wehrmacht, it would prove to be too little, too late, especially once Germany was engaged with U.S. forces equipped with the M1 Garand. Germany learned this lesson the hard way, but was unable to refit an entire army with a completely new primary weapon system while at war, especially with factories and other logistical assets facing destruction at the hands of Allied bombers and saboteurs on a regular basis. It could be argued that this was a major factor contributing to Germany's loss in World War II.

Machine guns and mortars, just like all infantry weapons, have specific roles to fulfill on the battlefield. The rifle is no exception. Nazi Germany, strictly speaking from a standpoint of innovation in the arena of military technology, was one of the most advanced countries on the planet in its day. I am no fan of the ideology, politics, or world views, by any stretch of the imagination. Their technological feats, however, speak for themselves. Whether you look at feats of rocketry (V series theater ballistic missiles) aircraft development (Me 163b Komet rocket powered aircraft, or Me 262 Sturmvogel, world's first operational jet powered aircraft) naval warfare (U Boats, "Wolfpack" submarine versus surface fleet tactics), land warfare (Panzer series tanks, in particular the Panther), combined arms tactics ("Blitzkrieg" which is the basis for all modern conventional warfare to this day) or infantry small arms such as the StG 44, the world's first true assault rifle, or the FG 42, which would have had this distinction had it not been for its use of a full size rifle cartridge.

To expand further on Nazi Germany's small arms development, consider the following. This is just a small sample of the small arms developed and fielded by the Nazis during WWII in an attempt to gain a technological edge on the battlefield. From 1939 to 1945, Nazi Germany produced and fielded the following infantry weapon systems.
  • FG 42 - Airborne forces assault rifle
  • Gewehr 41 - Semi-automatic rifle
  • Gewehr 43 - Semi-automatic rifle
  • Sturmgewehr 44 - Assault rifle
  • Karabiner 98K - Bolt-action rifle
  • MG 08 - Heavy water-cooled machine gun (WWI design, phased out by 1942)
  • MG 15 - General-purpose air-cooled machine gun (originally an aircraft defense weapon, later many were modified for infantry use)
  • MG 34 - General-purpose air-cooled machine gun
  • MG 42 - General-purpose air-cooled machine gun
  • MG 81 - General-purpose air-cooled machine gun (originally an aircraft defense weapon, later many were modified for infantry use)
  • MP 28 - Submachine gun
  • MP3008 (commonly referred to as the Erma) - Submachine gun
  • MP 34 - Submachine Gun
  • MP 38 - Submachine gun
  • MP 40 - Submachine gun
  • MP 41 - Submachine gun
  • Pistole 08 (Luger) - Semi-automatic pistol
  • Walther P38 - Semi-automatic pistol
  • Walther PP - Semi-automatic pistol
  • Panzerb?chse 38 - Antitank rifle
  • Panzerb?chse 39 - Antitank rifle
  • Panzerfaust 30/60/100/150 - Single Shot disposable antitank rocket launcher (number refers to effective range
  • Panzershreck - Antitank rocket launcher

This list does not include multiple prototype weapons, private venture weapons, weapons that were not formally adopted, foreign produced weapons that were adopted for use, and special purpose weapons (such as the Flammenwerfer series of flamethrowers), that were developed or used but not as broadly during this time frame.

The above pieces of information, specifically items such as weapon designations and features, were pulled from a variety of sources, many in print versus online. I will be happy to provide sources upon request, however have not done so with this post, simply because I did not want to spend the time looking up information that is general knowledge, or readily available to me in print that I did not want to look up a source for online. Other items are my own conclusions, and as such are my personal opinions, drawn from the available information. Feel free to agree or disagree at your discretion. I welcome constructive criticism and debate.

Sorry to be long winded, but this is one of my favorite subjects, if you couldn't tell.

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Old 12-17-2011, 07:30 AM   #15
Ts4EVER
Default Re: Give incentive for Karabiner 98k kit

Well you are right, of course the rifle is not completely useless, otherwise they wouldn't have fielded any. But in the big scheme of combat, modern battles are still decided by firepower output and in that department bolt action rifles were probably even outdated by WW1, considering the shortish combat distances.
BTW you mention the Tokarev SVT40 rifle: at the beginning of the war, these were supposed to become the standard Soviet infantry rifle, however, the Russians actually put the Mosin Nagant back into production. In the end, ease of production and maintenance were much bigger factors than any increase in combat efficiency. At the same time, the Russian stocked up the standard number of lmgs in their infantry squads from 1 to 3.

About your weapon list:

Quote:
MG 08 - Heavy water-cooled machine gun (WWI design, phased out by 1942)
Was used until the end of the war.

Quote:
MP3008 (commonly referred to as the Erma) - Submachine gun
This was mostly for militia use, I don't even know if any were ever fielded outside of the factory.

Quote:
MP 28 - Submachine gun
MP 34 - Submachine Gun
I would also include the MP35/I (produced in large numbers exclusively for the SS in Denmark) and the EMP35 (produced for SS and captured from France) in that list. These kinds of MP18 derivatives were very popular with SS and police units.
Generally speaking though, the Germans fielded more PPsh41s (also as the MP41(r) in 9mm) and Beretta smgs (more of those were produced by Germany than the MP40 in the last months of the war) than these older models.

Quote:
MP 41 - Submachine gun
This was used by SS exclusively and stopped production due to copy right issues.
One of the SS soldiers in this famous Photo fromt he Warsaw Ghetto uprising has one, btw:



Other than that, there are several items missing on that list that were very common, but not necessarily produced in Germany.

This baby for example:



Foreign lmgs like that one or the French FM24/29 as well as the polish and belgian BARs were very common among the fortress units guarding the Normandy beaches, probably more common than the MG42 (with the exception of the 352. Infanterie).


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Old 12-17-2011, 09:30 AM   #16
Stoickk

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Default Re: Give incentive for Karabiner 98k kit



I am glad to see someone that shares my love for the subject. As stated, my list was not all inclusive. I restricted it to German designed weapons, and as such did not include captured and adopted weapons, or those that were of design origins outside Germany. As for the Erma, they did see use, especially early in the war, as they were basically a copy of the British Sten. They were replaced quickly as the design was generally unreliable and prone to mechanical problems. As for the MG 08, by the end of 1942, the only use the MG08 saw was rear echelon usage as an AA emplacement. The MG 34 and the MG 42 had replaced it for infantry type units due to the weight issues accompanying a water cooled weapon. Additionally the modified aircraft machine guns such as the MG 15 were used in that role as well.

You are also correct about the Soviets putting the Mosin Nagant back into production. Again, ease of production, availability of parts and ammunition, ease of training, etc. played a role in this. Also playing a role in this decision would be the heavy damage to both Soviet infrastructure and manpower in the early years of the war. The Mosin Nagant was very easy to issue to personnel with minimal training, such as the conscripted personnel that were in broad use in the Soviet Army.

My reference to the SVT 40 was primarily from Germany's initial offensive against the Soviets, in their first push to take Moscow. They were handed heavy losses, and German high command learned quickly that while Blitzkrieg tactics were effective, one area that they had neglected was improvement of their standard infantry weapon. The Soviets learned from those battles as well, thus their increase in the deployment of machine guns to their infantry.

Every military learns lessons in wartime, and is forced to adapt and improve, or be eliminated. France would be a prime example of this. They insisted on maintaining their Maginot line for defense, which Germany crushed in very short order. France tried to fight in World War II the way that World War I was fought, and failed miserably. Accordingly, the British lost their largest naval ally very early in the war. Many don't realize, but France had the fourth largest navy in the world at the time. This loss cost the allies dearly, as German U boats ended up sinking 14.5 million tons of allied shipping before the end of the war, killing over 36,000 merchant sailors, another 36,000 naval personnel, approximately 3500 merchant vessels, and 175 warships. Just think how much differently the Battle of the Atlantic would have gone with the French Navy in the fight.

Man, I love this stuff.

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Old 12-17-2011, 12:46 PM   #17
Ts4EVER
Default Re: Give incentive for Karabiner 98k kit

The MP3008 in early war? AFAIK it was a last ditch defensive weapon. You might be thinking of the EMP35, which was also made by the Erma company.


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Old 12-17-2011, 01:32 PM   #18
Stoickk

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Default Re: Give incentive for Karabiner 98k kit

I stand corrected, Sir. You are indeed correct. The Erma MP3008 was indeed a late war last ditch weapon, and only about 10,000 were produced. These were designed and produced around the same time frame as the VG 1 through 5 series rifles. I probably was thinking of the EMP35.

Back to the topic at hand though, we're probably boring the hell out of people with the history lessons.

How do we balance game play for Wehrmacht players with K98's versus U.S. players with M1 Garands?

Historically, the two rifles shared comparable accuracy, stopping power, and range. Therefore, deviation or projectile damage simply does not work for balancing. Personally, I am in favor of the suggested asymmetric balancing proposed earlier in the thread. However, I think it goes beyond just the BAR versus the MG34. While those two weapons help to even the gap somewhat, they don't balance the battlefield. Some other possibilities (keep in mind that I am merely brainstorming here, and all of these ideas are simply that, and open to criticism and suggestion) might be to increase panzershreck damage, as historically the panzershreck hit considerably harder than the bazooka. It had a full 50mm more armor penetration. If it were possible to get a model, the STG 44 could be added as either an alt AR or an alt Grenadier weapon. I am thinking that, due to the strong similarities of appearance, starting with a basic AK47 model, modification wouldn't be overly difficult. However, I am not a modeler, so I may very well be talking out of my ass on that one. One thing about the K98 that was an advantage over the Garand was that "topping off" the rifle without emptying the magazine was much easier due to the design. Perhaps changing the K98 to a single round ammo count versus a magazine count, allowing Wehrmacht soldiers to top off individual rounds expended would help. This would give them a bit more longevity in lengthy firefights where supplies are low. A bonus would be if Garands could be coded to not allow reloads mid magazine. I don't know if that is possible with the BF2 engine though. I'll post more ideas on this subject if I come up with any.

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Old 12-17-2011, 02:05 PM   #19
[R-DEV]AfterDune
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Default Re: Give incentive for Karabiner 98k kit

Also, the M1 Garand right now has 10 bullets, which will be 8 in a next version. Plus, you can reload in the middle of a magazine. I'm hoping to make it just like in FH2, that you can only reload when your mag is empty. That would balance the two rifles a bit as well.


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Old 12-17-2011, 02:12 PM   #20
Ts4EVER
Default Re: Give incentive for Karabiner 98k kit

Note that the Garand can be reloaded mid clip irl. The only reason this is impossible in Fh2 is because it is the only way to get the "Ping" in.


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