Infantry combat too brutal

[Jedimushroom]

PR:BF2 has always sought to strike a balance between gameplay and realism, and the same is presumably true of PR Arma 2. I would argue that in its current state, the bar is too far toward the realism side and gameplay is suffering as a result.

The problems

1. Weapons are too accurate, incoming fire too punishing and firefights too short.

2. The medic kit is near-useless as too often a player is unrevivable.

3. Infantry gameplay favours surprise attacks and lone wolf infiltrators over organised firefights.


What can be done

1. The upgrade in infantry level accuracy from PR:BF2 is totally gamechanging. Every soldier in Arma 2 seems to fire like he's on a range, not exhausted and fighting for his life. I of course will concede to the views of an active serviceman on this if one would like to comment.

I believe that for gameplay and possibly realism reasons, accuracy should be decreased across the board. The weapon sway induced when one has sprinted for five or ten seconds seems like an appropriate level, but that will have to be tested internally.

2. The damage level to cause permanent death should be increased significantly. I am in two minds about whether to change the ease with which downed soldiers are 'finished off'; I think that with the changes outlined in 1 this will be less of a problem anyway.

3. I think this is a combined problem with the low level of teamplay in the game currently, plus the other two issues I have already addressed. However, part of it is due to excessively large or poorly designed maps for the number of people playing on them. Zargabad uprising for instance is far too large for the usual 20 players per side you find on it. I think that different map types for different numbers of players should be introduced, ala BF2.

Hopefully with these changes we will see fewer fights where half the squad mysteriously dies instantly and the other half is powerless to do anything, and more proper realistic firefights where the element of surprise isn't everything.

I also have some suggestions regarding infantry assets, such as why unorganised insurgents have access to a Metis launcher and two iglas for use against two warriors and a single merlin (I am inclined to believe it was merely overlooked) but that is a secondary point.

I would like very much to here your opinion on these points, thank you for your time.

[-=Leon=-]

+1
Good points mate.
I do believe that ability to reliably hit targets up to an 800m with a simple rifle is nor realistic nor fun.

[JackONeill]

I approve this post.

[NAPALM47]

I totally agree with the points you have brought up. Being infantry becomes a bit annoying after a while because of all the lonewolfing that happens.

[Steeps]

Going to agree with all the points on this. Not much I can add to it, he covered everything.

[Zapata]

And death penalty system adding secs after death doesnt in favor to people stay to play longer in game.

[[R-DEV]wormeaten]

I do not agree totally with it.
This mod is realistic in the way how serious you are playing. Most of this problems is happened because of lone wolfing so it is enigma to me why people lone wolfing then.

Medic system have 300% for health. It is mean you have 3x more health than usual vanilla life. You are drop unconscious after 100% but you still have life force for 2 lives to be revived. Problem mostly is not medic system problem is again lack of team work. Level of team work like it is in BF2PR is not good enough for PRAA. From my experience in this game and I was prow this point in numerous occasions when squad is moving as group keep cohesion and constantly wait to regroup when they have low number of active squad members. Also when someone get hit everyone chasing who will heal him and no one suppresing and covering medic and then instead of one death you got 4.

Comparing with BF2 medic one of the essence things is using smoke. How many time you see medic using smoke for cover. 1 of 15 occasions someone using smoke for extraction wounded.

Benefit of the grouped squad who keep formation is fire power and they can successfully suppressed and flank enemy giving time for medic to heal.
Also here is situation when someone is unconscious still could be hurt if someone continuing to shoot to victim. If squad suppressing this position those who was attacking you will need to shoot on those who are still active and returning fire not on incapacitated who is not the threat any more.

There is some good point here like accuracy but not much.
In my opinion we need to do something what will increase realism in different way. In real life when someone shooting on you you got reflex reaction to get in cover in game you know you will be respawn so we need something what will simulate adrenalin rush and fear you got in real life what forcing you to go in cover.
We need increasing suppressing fire effect. This will force you to go in cover also will be one more issue which will force people to play in groups not lone wolfing because when you are pinned down only your team m8 could successfully return fire and re suppressed enemy position.

Someone mention additional seconds per death and should be removed. This is in contradiction with this issue. How you can force someone to try stay alive as log as possible than with longer respawn time? In .15 this additional second is reduced from 3 to 2 sec per death in my opinion should be increased to 4 even maybe 5 sec and we need some changes in suicide to discourage people with suicide.

Right most of this problem here could and should be slowed in a way you are playing it.
The biggest advantage of this game is its diversity and freedom of movement, speed strategy, approach. You could play it fast or slow you could more sneaking or attacking frontally and everything is depending on situation on the ground and how your enemy doing. That is just like in real life you don't chose situation you have to adopt to the situation and that's the realism too not just how some rifle is accurate.

This is more complex issue and couldn't be fix with just slight tweaking and allow me to say we are on .15 and to be honest this public play is only feedback and experience with this mod we got and of course we are tracking how it is going on and watching what to do to increase realism and gameplay experience. Remember PRBf2 is developing for 7 years now and ArmA and Bf2 is completely 2 different worlds.

I'm say this not that I don't support your ideas but just want to overview this problem from different angle. Looking from all aspects of some problem we will find better and more satisfied solution.

Thanks.

[Web_cole]

Originally Posted by [R-DEV]wormeaten

Medic system have 300% for health. It is mean you have 3x more health than usual vanilla life. You are drop unconscious after 100% but you still have life force for 2 lives to be revived.

In my (albeit very limited) experience this doesn't actually mean anything. The issue is its too easy to dead-dead a player, either on the initial contact or by shooting them again when they are down.

Comparing to BF2:PR if someone goes down in a firefight that is not the end of their involvement. They should wait for revive, they should relay information to their squad ("There is an enemy walking on my body", "I hear shots really close to where I went down" etc). But most of all the fact that they can be revived 90% of the time makes teamwork within the squad easier to achieve.

Contrast that with A2:PR where any kind of contact is much more likely to be fatal and you have a huge, unwieldy obstacle to squad teamwork, i.e. the necessity of re-grouping on a regular basis.

TLDR: The PRBF2 medic system may not be anywhere near realistic but its makes teamwork easier to achieve and more desirable.

Originally Posted by [R-DEV]wormeaten

Comparing with BF2 medic one of the essence things is using smoke. How many time you see medic using smoke for cover. 1 of 15 occasions someone using smoke for extraction wounded.

I'm not certain what you mean by this comparison? Imo its often very unnecessary to smoke for revive on PRBF2.

[VaoUrshak]

Originally Posted by Web_cole

In my (albeit very limited) experience this doesn't actually mean anything. The issue is its too easy to dead-dead a player, either on the initial contact or by shooting them again when they are down.

Comparing to BF2:PR if someone goes down in a firefight that is not the end of their involvement. They should wait for revive, they should relay information to their squad ("There is an enemy walking on my body", "I hear shots really close to where I went down" etc). But most of all the fact that they can be revived 90% of the time makes teamwork within the squad easier to achieve.

I don't think you should compare PR:BF2 and PR:ARMA2 at all. Just have your medic in PR:BF2 hide a few meters behind the squad, should you get whiped he rezzes when the enemy moves on and you re-engage the enemy in a couple of minutes without really having lost ground. The fact however is that it just takes just as long to rezz a full squad as to all spawn at a rally point in PR:ARMA2. It's just that you have to cover some more ground again, and I think that gives people the feeling it's worse. But you were defeated, you should loose ground then imo...

Also, dead men don't talk. I'm glad you get the black screen of death now when you die. Happened too often in 0.1 beta that you shot someone and he was yelling "HE'S HERE ON ME" or "HE'S 100M WEST OF ME BEHIND THE ROCK", after which you get spammed with nades and MG fire...

Originally Posted by Web_cole

Contrast that with A2:PR where any kind of contact is much more likely to be fatal and you have a huge, unwieldy obstacle to squad teamwork, i.e. the necessity of re-grouping on a regular basis.

TLDR: The PRBF2 medic system may not be anywhere near realistic but its makes teamwork easier to achieve and more desirable.

Yes, it is more fatal but I dare to argue with you that it actually enhances teamwork rather than it being an obstacle. A team with alot of cohession and tactical gameplay are a must in PR:ARMA2. You have to think more about what you're going to do and how you'll do it. It's not like in PR:BF2 "Let's try this and if we die the medic that's hiding in a bush 100m behind us patches us up and we'll keep on pushing further the same way"...

Ohyeah, and rally points are used way too little!

[Swedge]

Hi Jedimushroom mate. A well-considered and thoughtful post!

Originally Posted by Jedimushroom

I would argue that in its current state, the bar is too far toward the realism side and gameplay is suffering as a result.

Personally, I don't believe I can get too close to the realism side. That's what I enjoy most.
I'd be field-stripping and cleaning our weapons during battle prep if they let us

Originally Posted by Jedimushroom

1. Weapons are too accurate, incoming fire too punishing and firefights too short.

I possibly agree that weapons are too accurate and, ironically, could be made less accurate if it's more realistic. I find that incoming fire is not punishing enough. I often feel like I've taken X bullets and should be down for the count by now. I'm happy with the length of firefights. I'm not sure what to say about that. It's very subjective.

Originally Posted by Jedimushroom

2. The medic kit is near-useless as too often a player is unrevivable.

Medics have been discussed with some similar for and against here and here. I do find the medic kit is less useful than most other kits.
I suppose in real-life, medics save guys because 1) they're mates and because, 2) in a bigger sense, if you can get the wounded to safety and healed up it means they'll live to fight another day. If healing Wormeaten was the only way I ever got to play with him again for the rest my life, all those objectives and caches could get #^@$ as far as I'm concerned But we can't do much about 1) since you'll get to see your buddy reincarnated as a reinforcement about 30 seconds later. Given that PR:Arma2 simulates weeks and months of combat in the space of a few hours, an equivalent game mechanic to encourage medics might be offset bonuses to ticket-loss, or respawn timer bonuses, or rally-point ticket bonuses.

Originally Posted by Jedimushroom

3. Infantry gameplay favours surprise attacks and lone wolf infiltrators over organised firefights.

There's nothing wrong with surprise attacks. They're the bread and butter of the infantry.

"One of the strongest weapons of offensive warfare is the surprise attack" -- Carl von Clausewitz

"Always mystify, mislead, and surprise the enemy, if possible" -- Stonewall Jackson

Lone wolf infiltrators can certainly cause damage but, all other things being equal, are generally outgunned by superior numbers and firepower. I think the mod currently favours groups and teamwork. If you disagree, I'd be happy to trial a scheduled event where one side uses groups and teamwork and the other side has neither

Originally Posted by Jedimushroom

3. I think this is a combined problem with the low level of teamplay in the game currently, plus the other two issues I have already addressed. However, part of it is due to excessively large or poorly designed maps for the number of people playing on them. Zargabad uprising for instance is far too large for the usual 20 players per side you find on it. I think that different map types for different numbers of players should be introduced, ala BF2.

There are lots of players that dont use teamwork and there are lots of players that do. That's a human problem or a social problem. It's not so much a gameplay problem. Soccer isn't a lot of fun without teamplay either
The thing about the mod is that many of the key variables adjust and scale automatically based on the server population, including rally-deployment requirements, kit availability, ticket-loss, objective capture-rates, insurgent corpse intel, etc etc. You could maybe argue that some of those need to be tweaked. But if Zargabad Uprising seems too big it's maybe more of a human problem again. If the 20 insurgents are defending the caches and the 20 Blufor are attacking them, that's all the action you need.

These human problems can be addressed by more players taking squad-leader roles, more scheduled events, and more players providing informal and formal training and support to other players.

Another cool thing is that a lot of the lone-wolves will hopefully leave to play DayZ instead

Cheers,
Swedge