7.62 rounds for Blufor

[autonomousw]

Sounds like lag issues to me, I cant even count the number of head shots and torso shots I've one shot people with from some pretty ridiculous ranges with the L85 In my opinion the 5.56 has been given a lot of love in this game, for a round that most hunters (my self included) consider inadequate for anything much bigger than a coyote its pretty effective in these games.

[Beee8190]

Where's 7.62 for OPFOR I could ask... As it is, the L85 5.56 does a lot more damage than opfor AK's, which is least to say disturbing.Account to that the US/UK soldiers have obviously either higher armor values or bullet penetration values increased and can udjust their scopes to 800m where its still more than easy to get a soldier down from 600m.Thats how incredible are these L85's in game as of now.

Alright, end of my little rant here; all I'm trying to point at is that theres opponent too and their gear could use some love too.

[Ratszo]

Originally Posted by autonomousw

Sounds like lag issues to me, I cant even count the number of head shots and torso shots I've one shot people with from some pretty ridiculous ranges with the L85 In my opinion the 5.56 has been given a lot of love in this game, for a round that most hunters (my self included) consider inadequate for anything much bigger than a coyote its pretty effective in these games.

We're talking solid core rounds --full metal jacket, or 'fmj'. I shot coyotes fmj to preserve the pelt --can't sell a pelt with a tattered exit wound on the back side.

Did the same with bears using a 6.5mm. fmj.

The military uses fmj because of the Geneva convention on war -- it's inhumane to blow a soldier's exit wound out with a soft point.

Nato's 5.56mm. has a flat trajectory owing to its high volocity with a mag much lighter than the old 7.62mm./.308 mags.

Moreover, the .308 drops like a pig at 400m. I use a 7x57mm. on big game, moose. The Africaners shoot elaphants with that round.

Now, at my local gun shop, we got teflon sabot rounds..., faster, flatter, lighter still.

Place micrometer in hand and tell me a 5mm. fmj can't take out a soldier at range compared to a 7mm.

A hundred years ago Mauser chambered 9mm. from 11mm. --and people were mouthing the same bs, "How we gonna kill the enemy with a puny 9mm. round?.

[[R-DEV]Twisted Helix]

The damage rounds do depends on more than just calibre. Rounds can tumble inside the body, causing serious internal injury. Small calibre high velocity rounds tend to do this more easily than larger calibre bullets, but all bullets can do it. Hence its not simply a case that a higher calibre will do more damage. A higher calibre will have more mass and therefore more momentum than a smaller round travelling at the same speed ... but actual damage is about more than momentum.

[[R-DEV]epoch]

Originally Posted by Ratszo

The military uses fmj because of the Geneva convention on war -- it's inhumane to blow a soldier's exit wound out with a soft point.

Hague Conventions actually.

[galzohar]

Originally Posted by [R-DEV]Twisted Helix

The damage rounds do depends on more than just calibre. Rounds can tumble inside the body, causing serious internal injury. Small calibre high velocity rounds tend to do this more easily than larger calibre bullets, but all bullets can do it. Hence its not simply a case that a higher calibre will do more damage. A higher calibre will have more mass and therefore more momentum than a smaller round travelling at the same speed ... but actual damage is about more than momentum.

Here's some nice info about fragmentation for 5.56 rounds:

:: Ammo Oracle (and you might want to browse some other stuff there, they have a very very nice FAQ section)

In other words, with standard SS109 ammo, beyond 50~100m for M4A1s (14.5" barrles), or beyond 150~200m for 20" barrels (sorry no data for LSW's 25.4" barrel), you can pretty much forget about the fragmentation effect that makes 5.56 so deadly. Not that it doesn't hurt at longer ranges, but 7.62 is simply flat out more powerful at those ranges. Of course, IRL there's recoil, weapon and ammo weight to take into consideration, while in Arma 2 only recoil has any effect and even that is a pretty minor one compared to RL.

Not sure how good of a job Arma does at simulating this. In fact, I know for sure that vanilla arma only takes ballistics and damage data from the magazine's config, and not the weapon, so all weapons with stanag 5.56 magazines have the same damage and ballistics. Of course there are ways to work around that problem (as done in ACE).

So in any case, if we keep fighting at ranges of 300m and beyond, especially if the bulkiness of the weapon keeps being a complete non-issue and the recoil only being a minor issue, people will always prefer 7.62X51 or 7.62X54 when they have a choice.

[Ratszo]

Originally Posted by [R-DEV]Twisted Helix

The damage rounds do depends on more than just calibre. Rounds can tumble inside the body, causing serious internal injury. Small calibre high velocity rounds tend to do this more easily than larger calibre bullets, but all bullets can do it. Hence its not simply a case that a higher calibre will do more damage. A higher calibre will have more mass and therefore more momentum than a smaller round travelling at the same speed ... but actual damage is about more than momentum.

I've never seen tumble from a rifled round. A round would have to be perfectly spent to tumble in a bag of jelly.
Have shot a .22 long into a metal bucket full of water @ 200m. or so. The slug didn't pass thru. Or shooting empty oil cans at range, sometimes shake the can and the slug is still there.

A round that purposely tumbled would covene the Geneva convention [Hague Convention] --Mythbusters should look at that.

The US army was accused of using tumble rounds in Viet Nam.

[Ratszo]

Originally Posted by [R-DEV]epoch

Hague Conventions actually.

Cool, ty.

[[R-DEV]Twisted Helix]

Originally Posted by galzohar

Not sure how good of a job Arma does at simulating this.

Pretty crap, but to be fair that is because the actual dynamics of real world ballistics involve non linear polynomial equations which would be simply to expensive for a game engine to perform in real time.

Originally Posted by Ratzo

I've never seen tumble from a rifled round.

Any pointed lead core bullet will turn base over point ("tumble") after penetration in flesh, because the center of gravity is aft of the center of the projectile.

M16 rifle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia







Data from The Effects Of Small Arms On The Human Body, By Martin L. Fackler, Md

Originally Posted by Ratzo

A round would have to be perfectly spent to tumble

Completely incorrect, the opposite is true. Galzohar is right.

The original ammunition for the M16 was the 5.56x45mm M193 round. When fired from a 20″ barrel at ranges of up to 100 meters, the thin-jacketed lead-cored round traveled fast enough (above 2900 ft/s) that the force of striking a human body would cause the round to yaw (or tumble) and fragment into about a dozen pieces of various sizes and thus created wounds that were out of proportion to its caliber.[6] These wounds were much larger than those produced by AK-47 and they were so devastating that many considered the M16 to be an inhumane weapon.[78][79] As the 5.56mm round's velocity decreases, so does the number of fragments that it produces.[19] The 5.56mm round does not normally fragment at distances beyond 200 meters or at velocities below 2500 ft/s, and its lethality become largely dependent on shot placement

Comparison of the AK-47 and M16 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by galzohar

So in any case, if we keep fighting at ranges of 300m and beyond, especially if the bulkiness of the weapon keeps being a complete non-issue and the recoil only being a minor issue, people will always prefer 7.62X51 or 7.62X54 when they have a choice.

Agreed ...

The M16 has always enjoyed a reputation for excellent accuracy.[69][70] Its light recoil, high-velocity and flat trajectory allow shooters to take head shots out to 300 meters.[69] "In Fallujah, Marines with ACOG-equipped M16A4s created a stir by taking so many head shots that until the wounds were closely examined, some observers thought the insurgents had been executed."

Comparison of the AK-47 and M16 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

... but then the better scopes and zeroing should in some way make up for that ?

Originally Posted by Ratzo

A round that purposely tumbled would covene the Geneva convention [Hague Convention]

In the end the Belgian 5.56x45mm SS109 round was chosen (STANAG 4172) in October 1980..[80] The SS109 round was based on the U.S. cartridge but included a new stronger, heavier, 62 grain bullet design, with a small steel tip added to improve penetration (specifically, to consistently penetrate the side of a steel helmet at 600 meters).[19] Due to its lower muzzle velocity (about 3110 ft/s)[8] the Belgian SS109 round is considered more humane because it is less likely to fragment than the U.S. M193 round.

A study in 2006 found that 20% of soldiers using the M4 Carbine wanted more lethality or stopping power.[24] In June 2010, the United States Army announced it began shipping its new 5.56mm lead-free Enhanced Performance Round, the M855A1, to active combat zones.[85] This upgrade is designed to maximize performance of the 5.56x45mm round, to improve penetration and to consistently fragment in soft-tissue when fired from the short-barreled M4 carbines and standard length M16s.

Comparison of the AK-47 and M16 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

At the end of the day, the object of war is to kill people. There is no "nice" way to do it.

Originally Posted by Ratzo

covene the Geneva convention

I think you mean contravene ....