Removal of "Bionic" zoom

[mad rabbit]

Originally Posted by [R-CON]Minimalaco

in the micro-terrain not use carpet of grass xd.

As has been said numerous times in the past the map is looking great and so are the new MAN trucks!

However you'll need to increase the base sizes for a truck that size won't you? In addition the video also highlighted how much harder it's going to be to drive off-road from now on = more ambushes! Great!

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Originally Posted by [R-DEV]wormeaten

There is other issue here people not using legitimate tactics and assets for increase combat efficiency more in way not to be killed than in be more accurate. Don't see much usage of smoke from grenades gl's or mortars. Should be use more frequently than it is right now about teamwork with one team suppressing enemy I could not complain because it is not effective as should be or better say as I will like to be.

I disagree when you post this critique of current player tactics here and in other threads wormy but no offence intended!

Tactics and asset use are going to change depending on heaps of parameters:
- player personality
- squad position
- preferred SL tactics
- team composition
- availability
- situation
- LUCK
...to name but a few

The mod you guys have created defines the parameters, provides the asset but when the bullets start flying only certain things can be controlled. For example currently you can control kit availability but that doesn't mean that you can currently stop 2 to 3 sniper being in one squad. And the more these parameters are restricted, the less dynamic the game play.

Indeed restrictions should only occur due to balancing/fairness and not to curtails players actions to a 'text-book' way of playing. For example, James is a very dynamic player and on one insurgent map he loaded us into a civilian black SUV as BLUFOR to find the cache:

http://youtu.be/hCmgDmSiloQ
EDIT: youtube linking not working or some reason...

Now would you as developers restrict this type of gameplay because it's not 'text-book' use of FOB/Jackals/smoke? Not for me to decide, but it was a very fun element that occurred spontaneously and was a very dynamic use of tactics. It was also in my opinion not unfair to the OPFOR side.

Coming back to your original examples wormy:
- smoke: use only under fire or to conceal known advancement, otherwise just gives away your position
- mortars: mostly useless at the moment due to lack of proper use and personality of mortar operator using for themselves c.f. for team. Also too inaccurate and not enough rounds to track a moving target. Best used for area denial.

Now these are my personal opinions when I SL. Some others such as 76 hate using smoke at all. Most squad members, even regulars don't even bother to pack smoke even when instructed. Some COs construct their whole battleplan around mortar use. Others like me avoid friendly mortars like the plague and are more concerned about friendly-fire. However this may change as the player community develops.

Point being that each player/SL/game will be different and as DEVS you can't/shouldn't 'force' player to do things by the text-book. Curtail, guide, suggest ...sure ... make it extremely difficult for players if they lonewolf for example (see below i.e. enhanced suppression effect). But if you force it I think it will be detrimental to the mod unless it's for the sake of balancing and the feeling of realism.

Specifically in regards to realism and the use of suppression (and even the points I discuss above), a distinction needs to be made with what works in-game and what military doctrine/text-book states. I'd love to have a squad use suppression fire effectively against a lonewolf in-game. But in real-life this single opponent/lone wolf would fear for his life. In-game this lonewolf only has to worry how far he has to walk from the nearest RP/FOB/HO. That's the difference and as such a lonewolf player needs to be guided to feel like it would be disadvantageous to operate alone. Currently this is not the case however and is hence the reason I keep pushing for a more exaggerated/enhanced suppression effect'.

Again wormy I mean no offence and as always I appreciate the thought and free work you guys put into this great mod! I'm in no rush for updates and am very happy with the mod in it's current state (perhaps I'm in the minority here). But I think you DEVS need to come online in-game more and mingle with us plebs for the reasons I stress above. Again I mean no offence by this and I understand as has been posted in other threads that you guys have enough problems working this out amongst yourselves ...but perhaps this is the problem. Just a suggestion and I'm always happy to be proven wrong.

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Back on-topic:

Originally Posted by [R-DEV]wormeaten

removing zoom will be even more make game unbalanced.

In ArmA zoom simulating RL focusing vision when you aiming so it is not that unrealistic.
Also this will give even more advantage to the scoped weapons what is already problem.

Zoom could be removed only if we in same time force PP effect and Head bobbing.

In my opinion rifles are too accurate on larger distance AK or M16 is deadly as sniper on 600m what is not case in RL. It should be reduced in half so will be good for suppressing but not for killing. That means you could kill on that distance but also will be lucky shoot only.

I see points for and against the zoom so that's why I'm not fussed either way. I just think any change you make needs balancing. In fact this balancing i.e. iron sights on PSO optic OPFOR weapons should occur regardless of the zoom issue.

As for rifle accuracy I'd disagree as most of the time a squad has run a good distance to get in position and the stamina really effects the accuracy in-game especially with all those Takistan hills! In addition most engagements that I've had in-game are either very far from a good position or very close in urban areas. This last example reinforces why the OPFOR weapons need dual optics in my opinion.

...possibly the British Enfield SUSAT weapons are too accurate compared to the OPFOR AK PSO weapons but I don't know or care if this is realistic or not, nor if it's changed. I work with the tools I have when playing and I like the sides having a 'flavour'. But again (for the 3rd time) dual optics in OPFOR PSO weapons would be better for balancing as opposed flavour.

[Rashomon]

Originally Posted by mad rabbit

Point being that each player/SL/game will be different and as DEVS you can't/shouldn't 'force' player to do things by the text-book. Curtail, guide, suggest ...sure ... make it extremely difficult for players if they lonewolf for example (see below i.e. enhanced suppression effect). But if you force it I think it will be detrimental to the mod unless it's for the sake of balancing and the feeling of realism.

Apply that same principle to the idea that the zoom provided in game by Arma is somehow "bionic" then... It's not. Is there a point in having a battlefield 25 square kms big, if your vision is restricted to a couple hundred meters. Are the firefights in generic FPShooters that much longer then?

People seem to be craving for longer "realistic" firefights...such as they see on whatever documentary or youtube video. They feel that right now things are skewed as in the sense that the opposite side are like snipers and they don't stand a chance in most firefights...as in "a whole squad getting wiped out by a couple players in 15 seconds! F**k that! IRL that doesn't happen!". In a way this is true, but the question why this is the case, is rarely asked.

I might come upon a "touchy" subject here, but maybe it's because the game is played too haphazardly...? Maybe it's not the weapons or scopes or bionic zoom that causes this, but the way the players themselves play the game?

Is terrain always used to your advantage? Do we really make use of overwatch positions? Are armoured vehicles usually supported by infantry? Are all squads really communicating, planning and supporting eachother? Is indirect fire used in the right way to support infantry movement? Same thing with air support?

The list of questions can go on and on... But if people truly believe that a bunch of hardcore pvp players, whether or not they play in isolated "clan" groups, can defeat a side that is truly applying all those principles, then I'm playing with the wrong people, sry.

Removing a core item as that "bionic zoom" as people call it, seems to be grasping at straws to me... I think it will alienate as much players as people think to attract with it. It's like that DayZ mod...however much you script...however brilliant you're ideas are...in an immense open world such as Arma's, it's the players that make the difference in how the game is approached and played... exactly because of the freedom they have. No corridors, no bosses popping up, no mini maps that you learn by heart in 3 days...just you and a 200 square km open world...

Regardless of what happens with the mod, I'll continue to play it, as I feel that even right now it's already damn good! Thanks in no small part to players like you (Mad), Swedge, Leon, Unknown, Payback, the RGG fellas (Chev,Freak,Dale,Mayr,Xatu...etc...), James, Joku, Grillo and many others. You guys provide the leadership and initiative that keep this mod going for people like me...the grunts (although everybody is an armchair general at home, you still need people that are ok with being bossed around).
But in my opinion the mod is still played too haphazardly with the emphasis on fast play, instead of smart play. And smart play might just be the textbook style Worm is hinting at...

Sent not by my Iphone, but rather under the influence of Havana Club and some limejuice...sorry 'bout that

[[R-DEV]epoch]

Originally Posted by mad rabbit

As has been said numerous times in the past the map is looking great and so are the new MAN trucks!

That is not a PR vehicle and it should not have been 'featured' in a PR video.

[mad rabbit]

All really good points Rashomon!

Certainly something to think about especially:

ON TOPIC

Removing a core item as that "bionic zoom" as people call it, seems to be grasping at straws to me... I think it will alienate as much players as people think to attract with it.

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OFF TOPIC

...maybe it's because the game is played too haphazardly...?

it's the players that make the difference in how the game is approached and played

the mod is still played too haphazardly with the emphasis on fast play, instead of smart play. And smart play might just be the textbook style Worm is hinting at

Although on this last point I was trying to suggest that playing smart/text-book way has been trialed by myself and others and in most ways works e.g. organised FOB placement, inter-team coordination between squads for objectives, team wide use of assets, squad formations.

But for some other crucial more squad based examples it doesn't i.e. large squad suppression of lonewolves. Now some of that is luck and bad planning, but that's from the perspective of the squad. However for a lonewolf player there is no detrimental effect. Again this is my opinion and I think it's been discussed broadly in other threads so I'll leave this here.

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Originally Posted by [R-DEV]epoch

That is not a PR vehicle and it should not have been 'featured' in a PR video.

*erases memory*

[[R-DEV]wormeaten]

Originally Posted by mad rabbit

I disagree when you post this critique of current player tactics here and in other threads wormy but no offence intended!

No problem m8. I like open discussion. Your disagreement is your opinion and have to take it in consideration. Point is we all want to be constructive here and multiple point of view could only help to find best solution.

I am definitely for some changes but I only want to say here removing zoom is not solution there must be combination of more issues which could bring us to satisfying solution.

This problem is closely connected with thread where we talking about too brutal infantry fight.
About smoke it is not ultimate solution same as removal of zoom but reducing lack of cover on open ground and could improve in game impression after all.

[[R-DEV]wormeaten]

Originally Posted by Rashomon

I might come upon a "touchy" subject here, but maybe it's because the game is played too haphazardly...? Maybe it's not the weapons or scopes or bionic zoom that causes this, but the way the players themselves play the game?

Is terrain always used to your advantage? Do we really make use of overwatch positions? Are armoured vehicles usually supported by infantry? Are all squads really communicating, planning and supporting eachother? Is indirect fire used in the right way to support infantry movement? Same thing with air support?

The list of questions can go on and on...

... But in my opinion the mod is still played too haphazardly with the emphasis on fast play, instead of smart play. And smart play might just be the textbook style Worm is hinting at...

Exactly and that is something what is most realistic in this mod. Freedom of making decisions and how human decisions affecting on game results is the best part and advantage of this mod and we will do everything to keep it that way. That doesn't mean we will not doing something about create more balance in mod but will keep it open not linear driven by the engine like is BF3, BFBC2 or CoD games.
Like I always saying in PRAA use your brain it is best weapon in PR, outsmart your enemy.

In my experience from PR always win that side which have better teamwork and strategy and like this is in RL. Difference between noobs and good organized team is like between trained army against not that much trained unmotivated army in real life.

[mad rabbit]

Originally Posted by [R-DEV]wormeaten

...have to take it in consideration
...there must be combination of more issues which could bring us to satisfying solution.

Nice to know the DEVS are taking into account our opinions and I'm sure the combinatorial approach you guys select will be well received!

I'm aware of the other "Infantry Combat Too Brutal" thread you refer to and have added my 2 + 98 cents in the past here:
http://www.realitymod.com/forum/f542...ml#post1772037

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ON TOPIC

We have discussed the potential removal of the zoom feature from normal infantry view, which includes CQB (HALO, CCO, Kobra) sight usage.

What's the general opinions on it's removal from static MGs?

[LithiumFox]

I don't understand why people refer to this as "Bionic zoom", it is simply a means to which a person can bring things to a much more natural sight. The only reason ANYONE feels like it's bionic is because of the fact that their FOV is screwed up from using a single monitor.


The game is a SIMULATOR. A screen is SMALL. In order to deal with the affects of a screen being SMALL, they slightly adjust your vision so things are BIGGER.

It's a very easy concept that no one seems capable of understanding. Not that I play PR:ARMA 2 anyways, mainly because it seem the players are this dumb...


Binoculars are still effective versus, what i call, 'proper fov adjustment', which i proved in another thread is majorly different. The "zoom" you can do with your base vision is still 1/4 what the zoom with a 4x scope is.


Personally, if you got rid of the zoom, I could go and get 2 more monitors, decrease my FOV, and i'll still have that advantage over you. =/

Edit: User was infracted for "flaming" other users. Calling out a whole player base as dumb is well ... <-----

[Rashomon]

Originally Posted by LithiumFox

It's a very easy concept that no one seems capable of understanding. Not that I play PR:ARMA 2 anyways, mainly because it seem the players are this dumb...

A bit over the top in generalising, don't you think? It's a polite discussion between people who do play the mod and enjoy it...they just don't always see eye to eye on different aspects of the game. Incapable of understanding "easy concepts" and dumb?.....Hardly...
Thx for your two cents anyways...

[xatu miller]

Originally Posted by LithiumFox

It's a very easy concept that no one seems capable of understanding. Not that I play PR:ARMA 2 anyways, mainly because it seem the players are this dumb...

Well good for you that you are the smart one here. However I do not think you grasp the concept of a polite discussion.

BACK TO THE TOPIC: It seems like a lot of good points have been made regarding why removing the bionic would be a bad idea. Although i think slightly decreasing it would make sense as currently we are able to make out hostiles from large distances(600+?). Which i think would be pretty hard IRL without optics.