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Old 07-20-2009, 09:25 PM   #1
Icix1
Default Deviation Issues and firefights

One of the most annoying factors of PR is the fact that you have to wait up to 5 seconds to get your shots off accurately. Nothing is more annoying than engaging the enemy and watching your shots go wildly off because you were too quick on the draw. How does this make sense? I was aiming at the person, why would 1 second of aiming not be as effective as 5 seconds? Bullets should go where bullets are aimed. If I am fast enough to draw my weapon and put a bead on the enemy I should be able to get the kill because oftentimes it's a matter of life or death. Especially when the enemy is in a better position/prone/sitting there scoping etc, shouldn't a few quick well placed shots at least come CLOSE to their target? Hell I wouldn't have died half as many times if my original shot had gone even close to the target (and would have kept their heads down). Had my hastily aimed shots gone even near the enemy they probably would have kept their head down.

One time, I was pinned down as a Taliban on Operation Archer. The US soldier had some sort of scope and was firing at me from about 150 yards away. So I decided to fight and try and get his head down. An easy shot to make for a veteran but the problem was that bullets were whizzing over my head. So I went from prone to crouch and let off a few well aimed rounds at the enemy (IE i was drawing a bead right on him). Rounds that should have killed him, for I was in semi auto and aiming right at him. But since I didn't wait the allotted time, my shots were seriously missing. I had the skill to return fire on the enemy but I feel that my ability to eliminate the threat was hindered. But had I sat there and tried to take aim I definitely would have been killed. So this is the issue I am getting at: I feel like I'm being punished for trying to return accurate fire on the enemy threat in a dangerous situation. I feel like the game would rather see me retreat than actually try and return fire, because once you're fired upon there's little hope of returning fire with any accuracy due to the way that bullets are treated.

I feel this highlights something that I see as a major problem in project reality. I feel that the deviance of bullets is something that punishes players who fight on the move and encourages camping. IE you're much more likely to hit anything by staying on a fixed position and sitting there than by actually moving to engage the enemy. Don't get me wrong, what I don't want to see is a bunch of people running around like CS blasting everything. And I definitely don't want to take away the advantages of lying prone/taking aim/using cover and whatnot. I just feel that in some situations I should have been able to return fire, had the accuracy deviance been lowered. I would have been able to get the enemies head down and immediately respond to the threat and in PR, waiting even 3 seconds to aim can be a serious mistake.

This is especially a problem where even exposing myself for a second in many firefights would get me killed. How can I effectively return fire when I have something crippling my aim unless I sit there, exposed, for 5 seconds? Even if I manage to pop up and throw some rounds at the enemy it's not going to go where I was aiming. What's the point? I feel that I'm being punished. It's like the game is telling me "dont bother shooting back just find some hill to prone on"

Now, after all this, I believe that a soldier sitting there taking aim SHOULD be more accurate than someone who just popped up from prone to let some bullets fly. But I also feel there should be a balance. Being able to return fire quickly on an enemy position, even from a crouched position with as little as few seconds aiming SHOULD be possible.

I love this mod and have been playing it for a long time but this is just something that has been bugging me for a while. Sorry for the rant, this is just how I feel.
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Old 07-21-2009, 06:04 AM   #2
wookimonsta
Supporting Member
Default Re: Deviance Issues and firefights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icix1 View Post

I feel that the deviance of bullets is something that punishes players who fight on the move and encourages camping.
yes, that is in fact what it does, and that is what its supposed to do

if you have been walking/sprinting/jumping your aim will be inferior to the guy who has been laying on the ground for 2 minutes and watches you walk into his arch of fire

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icix1 View Post

This is especially a problem where even exposing myself for a second in many firefights would get me killed. How can I effectively return fire when I have something crippling my aim unless I sit there, exposed, for 5 seconds? Even if I manage to pop up and throw some rounds at the enemy it's not going to go where I was aiming.
this is called "the dick end of suppressive fire". avoid it and flank the enemy.
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Old 07-21-2009, 07:04 AM   #3
AirborneForever

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Default Re: Deviance Issues and firefights

If you were pinned down, shouldn't some of your squad be attempting to flank your suppressor? Or were you going Rambo, but couldn't because of how PR's made?


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Old 07-21-2009, 09:01 AM   #4
Gaz
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Default Re: Deviance Issues and firefights

This is exactly what the suppression effect is meant to be for. Trust me, returning accurate fire is far harder than it looks under effective enemy fire.

Don't get seen. If you get ambushed or receive fire first, it's very difficult to regain any kind of upper hand. It's no different in PR.

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Old 07-21-2009, 02:39 PM   #5
Icix1
Default Re: Deviation Issues and firefights

But I thought I made it clear this wasn't a guy on the mg or any big weapons...it was a lone enemy just taking potshots. I wasn't pinned down at all nor was I running around like rambo. I was trying to fire on an enemy who was ineffectively firing at me. But what made me angry is that even though my bullets should have been on the mark....they weren't because of 5 second rule. If I can draw a bead on an enemy my bullets should go where they aim without more than 2-3 seconds of aiming, up to at least 150-200 yards. This is of course providing that my ironsights are actually on target. And if they were, why is it a ridiculous notion to have them [the bullets] go exactly where I aim without more than a few seconds to aim? I don't mean to offend anyone. I just don't understand why assault rifles have trouble hitting targets that should be easy shots.
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Old 07-21-2009, 02:47 PM   #6
DankE_SPB
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Default Re: Deviation Issues and firefights

well, you dont have to worry about, reticle swaing, ballistics and other stuff, if there was no deviation pause weapons would be like lazors


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Old 07-21-2009, 02:52 PM   #7
Icix1
Default Re: Deviation Issues and firefights

Well I don't really want that...but last I checked bullets are really fast and accurate.
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Old 07-21-2009, 02:54 PM   #8
$kelet0r

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Default Re: Deviation Issues and firefights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icix1 View Post
But I thought I made it clear this wasn't a guy on the mg or any big weapons...it was a lone enemy just taking potshots. I wasn't pinned down at all nor was I running around like rambo. I was trying to fire on an enemy who was ineffectively firing at me. But what made me angry is that even though my bullets should have been on the mark....they weren't because of 5 second rule. If I can draw a bead on an enemy my bullets should go where they aim without more than 2-3 seconds of aiming, up to at least 150-200 yards. This is of course providing that my ironsights are actually on target. And if they were, why is it a ridiculous notion to have them [the bullets] go exactly where I aim without more than a few seconds to aim? I don't mean to offend anyone. I just don't understand why assault rifles have trouble hitting targets that should be easy shots.
This whole argument falls apart when you consider that you are using a mouse to aim as opposed to a metre long 3kg+ mixture of plastic and metal. Marksmanship in combat and moving a cursor are worlds apart - hence the 'wait'. In another game (take America's Army or Arma2) you would have to 'wait' for your gun to stop swaying, that is the only difference. BF2 doesn't allow the Devs to put in swaying front posts, you pretty much have to imagine it's there and get into the habit of going pause..1..2..3..bang..1..2..bang..1..2..bang etc.
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Old 07-21-2009, 03:09 PM   #9
DankE_SPB
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Default Re: Deviation Issues and firefights

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Originally Posted by Icix1 View Post
Well I don't really want that...but last I checked bullets are really fast and accurate.
bullets, but not shooters


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Old 07-21-2009, 04:27 PM   #10
McBumLuv

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Default Re: Deviation Issues and firefights

Why is there deviation in game? To simulate the effects on weapons, such as:

Ballistics
Sway (Including any related to moving the weapon)
and to a much, much lesser degree actual deviation and wind effects on the bullet inflight

Ballistics are possible, but the tracer system would be hindered due to a bug where they have different flight characteristics than bullets if they are set to anything other than all bullets or no bullets. Ballistics ARE possible, but the development team has expressed no interest in implementing them.

Weapon sway is not possible in the fact that the weapon will actually move and influence where the bullet will go. It is however possible to get a visual representation of sway, but it would not be accurate or actually affect the weapon at all.

Wind/environmental effects are so minute on the engagements of most weapons aside from sniper rifles perhaps (and only to such a degree), but an insignificant devation is perfectly representative of them if sway and ballistics were implemented.


The Bottom line: For a game without ballistics or sway, the current 0.86 deviation model is near perfect for the majority of small-arm weapons. However, realistic weapon handling would mean that the deviation, which is really just a work-around in a jack-of-all-trades-but-master-of-none engine. Sway isn't possible other than as a visual cue, and while ballistics are possible, the development team is uninterested in them, prehaps because of their minute drawback.

For any changes in ballistics to happen, they would have to be suggested in case by case scenarios really, such as when talking about how their effectivity in CQC, effect on engagement distances, and so on...


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