Sniper VS Scoped MG

[gclark03]

At the distances of the average PR firefight, the marksman is much better at the sniper's job than the sniper could ever hope to be. In real life, professional snipers might be effective at PR range, but snipers in PR are rarely as effective as they would be on the battlefield, and that's just a result of BF2's limitations.

When these snipers have to compete with scoped assault rifles and LMGs, they rarely have a chance to do what they do best. That's no reason to nerf the LMG; it only brings attention to the existing sniper problem.

I'll eventually bring this up in its own topic, but the sniper is the issue in this discussion, not the machine gun.

[{UK}adjacent.power]

simply put nerf of RPG = bad why

all else good the Scoped SAw
*is no substitute for the sniper/marksmankit its loud has tracers and really isnt as accurate at 400m,
*if the enemy moves about in a fixed location he will get hit! this weapon will cut holes! Due to spread if he withdraws, moves back he wont get hit! How often do you see the unprepared squad headless chicken routine wigglers
*SAW can be captured in insurgency lol
*yes at first we saw much (get it) cutting up the maps but ppl have chilled on the slicing a little now, also no one just ambles down the road anymore
*SAW takes ages to steady so if he is covering a retreat he cannot just up stiks and follow wothout a planned fallback as the moment he stops blasting he gunna have a guy pop up ands shoot him, tthink of the moving SAW gunner at distances of 200m as ALMOST a blind man!

i simply ask what is ure problem! the hueys are suspect, on barracuda we used to kill them easier iswear, the rpg has turned sissy! Many bugs on insurgency i noticed concerning falluhah west and sappers BUT the patch rules it changes the dynamic enTIRELY! so take a little time to get used to it

[SocketMan]

First of all VS threads are not allowed
Second the sniper kit still comes with the SOFLAM does it not?
Sniper's job is not just raping infantry from the distance,but providing valuable
Intel about the enemy (behind the lines often).
Also it's a good idea to check out your target 1st with the SOFLAM and perhaps think twice before
shooting at the LMG?
However the MEC having a much smaller zoom on their sniper's kit should get something "extra" imo (maybe a grapple ?)

[M.Warren]

Originally Posted by gclark03

At the distances of the average PR firefight, the marksman is much better at the sniper's job than the sniper could ever hope to be. In real life, professional snipers might be effective at PR range, but snipers in PR are rarely as effective as they would be on the battlefield, and that's just a result of BF2's limitations.

When these snipers have to compete with scoped assault rifles and LMGs, they rarely have a chance to do what they do best. That's no reason to nerf the LMG; it only brings attention to the existing sniper problem.

I'll eventually bring this up in its own topic, but the sniper is the issue in this discussion, not the machine gun.

Listen, one of the most important factors about Snipers is that they can specifically strike a certain body part of an enemy at ranges over 700 meters which is unlike what DMR's are supposed to do. With this in mind, the whole purpose of a Snipers tactical value was trashed when headshots were removed. The ability to fire a round from 700 meters away and drop someone to the floor and KNOW they weren't getting up was the sheer point of Sniping some time ago. To be honest, it worked well as I can tell from personal experience.

DMR's are designed to hit with atleast double the force of a normal assault rifle at the cost of rapid fire capability and the fact that it's accuracy isn't "body part" specific as a Sniper Rifle. Additionally, DMR's are far better suited for Squad Level tactics as they are more flexible as they're balanced between precision and mobility.

The essence of Snipers in PR was the ability to deliver headshots. Despite what the developers feel about the matter in reference to headshots being fatal or not; this is where gameplay balance steps in. PR claims that Snipers are supposed to target enemy infantry of significant importance such as Officers and Medics. If you are able to deliver a fatal blow to the backbone of the infantrymens squad, they'll collapse. Once again this was made redundant when headshots weren't considered fatal.

It's really a hassle to think that if a Sniper spent all that time getting into position... Waiting patiently... and relaying information just to find out after that opportunistic moment where he squeezes his trigger and lands a headshot; a medic dives ontop of the Officer and revives him like nothing happened. I really don't care what people may belive about if that's right or not. The Sniper put the time, effort, skill and work necessary to acquire that kill just to be robbed of his decisive blow. It's just not right.

Do you want to fix snipers so that they once again have a specific and tactical edge on the battlefield? Fine. We'll need the devs to go and edit the values of Sniper projectiles. You know how large .50 caliber HMG's and 20,25,30,120 and 125mm canon rounds pretty much instantly kill infantry? I suggest this:

If a player is skilled enough to land a headshot on an enemy infantrymen with a Sniper rifle up to 800 meters he should be considered dead via a precise headshot. If the Sniper lands the shot on the center body mass (aka Chest/Torso), it'll critically wound him. Other places such as the arms or legs will cause him to be severely injured but alive and bleeding.

Simple as that really, providing it can be done.

________________________________________


The LMG's are a completely different story though. I haven't expanded my opinions on LMG's as I haven't had the time to use them as extensively as other weaponry, however one thing can be said right now:

LMG's currently don't seem to penalize players enough for firing bursts more than 3-6 rounds. Especially when trying to fire at ranges beyond 300 meters. LMG's should be able to reach out accurately to 300-600 meters with the use of controlled burst fire. It feels as if a player has better results holding down the trigger and reaping the benefits from the stream of constant automatic fire.

Additionally, LMG's lack the ability to provide "sweeping" suppressive fire. Most of the time it results in AR operators selecting a specific target and unleashing a hail of bullets in that direction only.

Like I said many moons ago. The best step would have been to increase the suppression effect radius on LMG's and leave them with Ironsights only. This would have allowed AR gunners to survey targets better for sweeping fire and to engage multiple targets at once. The AR operator could theoretically rely on the supression effect to pin the enemy at bay and prevent them from firing back at him.

When the scopes were slapped on the AR kits, the Gunner now has "tunnel vision" which kind of defeats the purpose of having a SAW weapon that was designed to suppress and pin the enemy. So now we've given Automatic Rifleman a spray-style weapon, with accuracy and magnification. It's now taking up the role of a stationary Assault Rifle that's belt-fed that can nearly fire in fully-automatic mode with little downfall. With the exception of how slow the mouse becomes in the "deployed" mode.

[waldo_ii]

The LMG is still innaccurate at the ranges at which a Sniper should be engaging. Just chill, take a sip from your can of coke, keep the sight steady on their head, and fire. They shouldn't be moving at all (they have to retain accuracy), so if you can put your sights on their head before they keep constant suppression, you'll get them.

[lockpicker.=P]

Originally Posted by M.Warren

Listen, one of the most important factors about Snipers is that they can specifically strike a certain body part of an enemy at ranges over 700 meters which is unlike what DMR's are supposed to do. With this in mind, the whole purpose of a Snipers tactical value was trashed when headshots were removed. The ability to fire a round from 700 meters away and drop someone to the floor and KNOW they weren't getting up was the sheer point of Sniping some time ago. To be honest, it worked well as I can tell from personal experience.

DMR's are designed to hit with atleast double the force of a normal assault rifle at the cost of rapid fire capability and the fact that it's accuracy isn't "body part" specific as a Sniper Rifle. Additionally, DMR's are far better suited for Squad Level tactics as they are more flexible as they're balanced between precision and mobility.

The essence of Snipers in PR was the ability to deliver headshots. Despite what the developers feel about the matter in reference to headshots being fatal or not; this is where gameplay balance steps in. PR claims that Snipers are supposed to target enemy infantry of significant importance such as Officers and Medics. If you are able to deliver a fatal blow to the backbone of the infantrymens squad, they'll collapse. Once again this was made redundant when headshots weren't considered fatal.

It's really a hassle to think that if a Sniper spent all that time getting into position... Waiting patiently... and relaying information just to find out after that opportunistic moment where he squeezes his trigger and lands a headshot; a medic dives ontop of the Officer and revives him like nothing happened. I really don't care what people may belive about if that's right or not. The Sniper put the time, effort, skill and work necessary to acquire that kill just to be robbed of his decisive blow. It's just not right.

Do you want to fix snipers so that they once again have a specific and tactical edge on the battlefield? Fine. We'll need the devs to go and edit the values of Sniper projectiles. You know how large .50 caliber HMG's and 20,25,30,120 and 125mm canon rounds pretty much instantly kill infantry? I suggest this:

If a player is skilled enough to land a headshot on an enemy infantrymen with a Sniper rifle up to 800 meters he should be considered dead via a precise headshot. If the Sniper lands the shot on the center body mass (aka Chest/Torso), it'll critically wound him. Other places such as the arms or legs will cause him to be severely injured but alive and bleeding.

Simple as that really, providing it can be done.

[2].

I've already talked about this in another topic but.. this game without headshots is just ridiculous.

"oh, there are so many other fatal places to hit, the headshot can't just be the only one.. so we just took it out.."

Ah cmon.. headshots should deliver instant kill (for obvious reasons).. center mass and dunno if possible, pelvis shots should incapacitate instantly and legs/arms shots serious bleeding.

I mean, an M40 bullet is enough to explode every non covered by kevlar body parts..

[zlzgrom86]

i havnt played PR since like .75 or something... so now i find out that you can't fatally kill someone with a bullet? that means i can kill 5 guys and the squadmate can pick up the dead guy's medic kit and revive his whole squad... as if the incident never happened?

[lockpicker.=P]

Originally Posted by zlzgrom86

i havnt played PR since like .75 or something... so now i find out that you can't fatally kill someone with a bullet? that means i can kill 5 guys and the squadmate can pick up the dead guy's medic kit and revive his whole squad... as if the incident never happened?

yes

10chars

edit: oh, fatally kill if the guy is inside a vehicle, or sit in a anti-air device

[Snazz]

Considering the range and pace of most firefights in PR the scoped MG is better, but it doesn't fill the intended roles of marksmen/sniper.

If marksmen could see further than auto-riflemen and shoot more accurately they may be more effective at engaging far out targets that threaten the squad.

Snipers still fulfill their primary role of spotting, and given a decent position they can take out multiple MGs before they even know what hit them.

ATM I'd rather have a Sniper in the squad than a Marksman, which is a contradiction in their theoretical roles. Sniper rifle is more effective from my experience, it has more of an edge over MGs than the Markman rifle and serves in the anti-sniper role.

[Solid Knight]

Unlike the torso, there a few lines of trajectory that will result in a less than fatal wound on a human head. Having fatal head shots makes more sense than the hardcoded vehicle destruction mechanisms where you can shoot the corner of a bumper and have the entire vehicle explode with the force of a 100 pound bomb.