Jumping guzzles my stamina :(

[sickly]

Originally Posted by badmojo420

True, you could navigate most of the maps without having to jump. But, all the current maps were made with knowledge that the player will have the ability to jump.

I'll have to take your word for that because from my experience, the maps seem to be designed specifically so that you can't jumpt to get past most obstacles (I have tried bypassing barriers to flank in many maps and find that it is simply not possible without the Grappling Hook).

Originally Posted by badmojo420

Just removing the jump ability alone would change how maps are played.

Again, from my experience people rarely jump (putting aside situations where they get stuck on pointless obstacles and jump out of sheer frustration).

Originally Posted by badmojo420

I couldn't imagine trying to fire an RPG from behind some of the taller walls. Or sniper from most roofs since i'd have to stand to see over the wall. Also a lot of the accessible rooftops would now be inaccessible since we rely on the few buildings with stairs pushed up against others. And most of the buildings with stairs are EA models with rooftop walls. The list goes on and on.

Those are things you might do but are easily rectified (if necessary). So for example if you're talking about having to jump onto a box to shoot over a wall, then just replace the wall with a shorter wall or get rid of the boxes if it's not something the devs want people to be able to do in that part of the map.

These are things that one could do, but certainly does not need to do for good gameplay.

Originally Posted by badmojo420

They are not just eye-candy, but both long range (because undergrowth like rocks and bushes dont display at distance) and short range cover.

Ok but I was thinking more like leaving rubble-like objects in the middle of highly-used routes and that sort of thing. Unnecessary--just a pain in the a$$ really (e.g. I'm trying to move around from cover to cover and suddenly I find that I've been stopped short by....a beer can--yes, I'm exaggerating).

Originally Posted by badmojo420

How many times have you seen people using the curbs in fallujah as cover? Laying down at a corner or high spot.

Of the few times I have seen that, it is shortly before my bullet goes through the exposed upper portion of their head.

Originally Posted by badmojo420

I agree with you on the curbs of fallujah, but that's a unique case, those are not supposed to be walked on that way.

I meant nay curve; sidewalks are not obstacles. This problem has been inherited from vBF2 (I can't believe it didn't occur to the original designers that this would be a problem).

Originally Posted by badmojo420

So for the most part, like editing a bunch of bf2 and pr statics? Oh wait we can't edit bf2 models, so just edit custom ones and what? Make all new stuff?

Yeah I don't buy that crap coming from EA/DICE: PR is a non-profit mod so I don't see how they can legally prevent people from modifying original content. I find it hard to believe that they would make a legal issue out of something like that.

But that's really up to the devs. If you have to replace, then I don;t see why creating a new 'sidewalk' model has to be such a big deal, but then I'm no mapmaker.

This isn't really essential: I just mentioned it because it's one of those things that has always annoyed me. No big deal.

Originally Posted by badmojo420

So if you've witnessed so little jumping or bunny hopping, why do you want it removed from the game?

Because I'm looking at it like a game designer perspective: it's about what the character can or cannot do more than what players commonly do with the character.

Originally Posted by badmojo420

So a group of soldier don't hop a stone wall and take cover when they start taking fire? Instead they all make a nice line and walk to the gate? Or wait you wanted invisible ramps around every low wall? Which wouldn't look or play very realistic.

I was suggesting placing gaps in the wall (exploded-out sections, entrance ways, whatever). I don't know if a ramp would be needed--I was thinking the stair-climbing function but I would need to know more about how it works. Unless the short wall is needed for tactical reasons (i.e. cover when none is otherwise available), just remove it entirely if that's easier.

Originally Posted by badmojo420

What degrades immersion for me are artificial barriers. Like the edges of the maps, bad collision meshes that create invisible walls, shorelines that are too steep to get up, and if you got your way, 3 ft walls.

I agree, all those things are a pain. See my response regarding short walls above.

Originally Posted by badmojo420

Saying that removing jump from PR would be a big step backwards.

Yes I got that (pardon my failed attempt at being humourous).

You can't jump in most of the Tom Clancy games and they are considered among the most advanced tactical FPS around. And they've mostly done quite well with a wide-ranging playership (i.e. not being able to jump doesn't seem to be an issue--probably because there isn't a need to most of the time, just like in RL).

[badmojo420]

Originally Posted by sickly

I'm looking at it like a game designer perspective

Theres your problem, look at from a modders perspective.

[sickly]

Originally Posted by badmojo420

Theres your problem, look at from a modders perspective.

You're probably right. In my defence, I do take engine limitations into account when making gameplay suggestions.

I'm just not familiar enough with the process of modification (especially when it comes to regarding the use of original content).

I suppose this is really a non-issue considering that bunnyhopping is rare and the lack of realism in this area is insufficient reason to justify the work involved.

I have to admit I raised the issue in part just get an idea where people stand on this (i.e. the jump function, as in the equivalent of climbing); that is, as far as any FPS mod/game is concerned.

(Would be nice to go over this stuff with some Devs but they don't seem to be around much these days.)

To be honest, I think the biggest movement exploit in BF2 is the fact that characters can make impossibly fast changes in direction (especially while sprinting) to avoid fire. THat and instant crouch-to-stand-to-crouch (i.e. teabagging). ...But that's for another thread.


As far as this thread's topic is concerned (i.e. jumping = stamina depletion): I would have to suggest that stamina use per jump be reduced by half.

Why? Because as has been said, jumping is frequently used as the BF2 equivalent of climbing over/onto stuff. As PR presently is, jumping (i.e. the equivalent of climbing/pivoting) over a short barrier results in the player no longer being able to sprint. This means that the player is left without the ability to sprint just when s/he is most exposed.

So for example, you want to run from cover to cover but there is a small obstacle in the way that you must jump over; once you clear the obstacle by jumping over it, you are then limited to travelling the rest of the way to cover at a snail's pace--making you an easy kill.

Of course, in RL you would just step up onto the obstacle or use one hand to pivot your body over it and continue running your ass off to the other side of the street (i.e. you wouldn't be exhausted to the point where the best you could do was a slow jog).

As I see it, an easy fix for this is just to reduce stamina usage from jumps by half. That way, the player has some stamina left over to complete the move, while only giving bunnyhoppers one "free" hop while sprinting (and as we've established, this exploit is not a big issue in PR--in part because of the penalties involved).

It seems to me that the benefits of making the change outweigh the costs of doing so.

That's my reasoning. I think you'll agree that this is an acceptable change for v0.86.

[Wallz]

how the hell does jumping make a game more realistic?

-just my 2 cents..

[redman0123]

I think jumping should have its own "stamina" so you can only jump a few times and have to let it recharge, but does not affect sprint. The current system is just FRUSTRATING.

Yeah... re-doing the entire game to have no jumping... L.O.L

[GrimSoldier]

Yea i agree with the curb thing its really annoying when i try to save my sprint for when i need it in combat but i constantly have to use it just to jump a fricking curb that's 3 inches tall. But i am in 100% support for not allowing bunny hopping to go around.

[sickly]

All canucks here I see.

Originally Posted by redman0123

I think jumping should have its own "stamina" so you can only jump a few times and have to let it recharge, but does not affect sprint. The current system is just FRUSTRATING.

Ok but that doesn't really correspond with RL either (i.e. you don't wind yourself sprinting but are then fine to go play some hoops).

Just do what I said: jump doesn't consume all your stamina so you have some left over to sprint with, but a second jump leaves you exhausted. I think that is a good compromise (i.e. gives you that extra sprint but not enough to bunnyhop/sprint).

Originally Posted by redman0123

Yeah... re-doing the entire game to have no jumping... L.O.L

As I said, probably not a big deal to do (i.e. remove jump function and remove/alter some unnecessary obstacles), as PR maps aren't that jump-friendly to begin with.

My point was that even then, bunnyhopping (i.e. the main gameplay reason for not allowing players to jump) isn't a big enough issue in most PR servers to merit the effort.

As for stamina cost, if you wanted to be truly realistic, you'd have a stamina cost for regular movement, stance changes, and higher cost for brisk changes in direction.

[sickly]

Originally Posted by Wallz

how the hell does jumping make a game more realistic?

As badmojo420 showed before, the justification for the ability to jump is that it allows players to access areas that they could climb on to in RL (i.e. jump = climb/step up onto/over).

The BF2 engine lacks any 'mantling' function, so jumping is the closest thing to it. This is also the reason for air control (i.e. allows stationary player to jump up and onto an object)...not actually intended to let players change direction in mid-air while bunnyhoppoing (God I hate when players do that).

[barbdwyer22]

Pretty much as someone stated before, jumping is just a placeholder for the ability to climb things.

I am seeing a lot of ridiculous assumptions that people do not jump in real life. Do you know how many walls I had to climb over in Iraq? Gaps between buildings and ditches I had to jump across, or small walls I had to jump behind so I would not get shot by a PKM while I ran across a street.

Jumping up onto objects so you can see over stuff is completely realistic as well. There is no need to mod out walls to make them shorter, that would ruin the immersion in my opinion.

I would like to see the ability to do dynamic entries (making your own entrance if you know what I mean.)

Oh yeah, and jumping around with 100+ lbs of gear does suck and eats up a lot of stamina, but we are in pretty good shape before we deploy so. =)

[ubershank47]

I would say that jumping is a necessary evil for the limitations of the BF2 engine, on difficult terrain you sometimes have to get forward momentum coupled with jumping just to scale a hill which can be frustrating and even time consuming (which could be considered realistic I suppose), same goes with Fallujah's infamous "Olympics Curbs" that require you to waste stamina just to navigate (simple solution is to make a small invisible plane that extends like a ramp up the curb so people will "walk up" the curb rather then have to hurdle it, not realistic in some sense but practical none the less, but you wouldn't be able to hide along side the curb.). There is no real solid solution to fixing the problem you could remove jumping all together but people still use other methods such as prone/stand combo while not as effective (takes too much time) it can have the same effect as it makes the target hard to hit especially from medium to long range as well as it is spontaneous.