Jumping guzzles my stamina :(

[PhiR]

Originally Posted by Psykogundam

i have a slight issue with this. i got chased off a ladder on the top of a roof today. I had a PKM and my opponant had an L86. but i had to do a full bloomin brass check and all he had to do was a mag reload.

i am totally against bunnys, but what about ladders and coaxial guns? Do we really need to do a brass check or mag load when we get off a ladder? maybe this could be looked into?

To be honest the check is merely a placeholder. The spirit is that with that kind of heavy gun you can't do anything fast. You can't wave a 20 lbs gun around like a glock.

[Slavak]

It would be nice if you could get 1 "free" jump every 10 seconds or so and every jump after the first one used your stamina at a really fast rate. Makes more sense than punishing every jump.

[sickly]

Originally Posted by Slavak

It would be nice if you could get 1 "free" jump every 10 seconds or so and every jump after the first one used your stamina at a really fast rate. Makes more sense than punishing every jump.

Yes of course, obviously. That has never been implemented because as I understand it, the BF2 engine has a fixed delay after each jump--or more accurately, it has no delay function at all (i.e. there's no value that you can change).

As a result, a modder is left with only 1 of two options a) add penalties (e.g. stamina drop, inability to shoot, etc.) to discourage jumping or b) remove the ability to jump altogether.

I suggest that option (b) is better because it both completely eliminates the bunnyhopping exploit and makes the mod more realistic (particularly appropriate to a mod that focuses on realistic combat).

The problem is that the maps would have to be altered in order to ensure that a player would NEVER have any reason to jump. Doing this AND maintaining RL characteristics of the maps is difficult.

I was thinking that the game function that allows characters to ascend stairs might be applied to objects at 'knee' height (e.g. when character moves toward a small dividing wall or box, he will automatically step onto it).

If that isn't do-able then as I said before, I would just suggest that maps just be altered so that players are not faced with any situations in which they would NEED to step over objects to move normally about the map (i.e. no unrealistically impassable obstacles).

I was thinking that applying the 'ladder' function to certain objects that would be 'climb-able' in RL (i.e. when you move up to object, you get the 'climb' function and associated character animation). Also, as long as the "ladder" side of the object is not more than x meters high, the bots will supposedly follow the navmesh onto it and not jump off before they get to the top.

[BTW, if for whatever reason the 'jump' function cannot be deactivated, then might I suggest reducing the effect to zero (i.e. if a player tries to use the function, his character will stay on the ground) and just re-map the key/spacebar to some other function.]

As for how this would affect overall gameplay and tactics: well, there are plenty of tactical shooters that don't allow jumping and they had no problems in this regard.

[thebigkiller1256]

I hate when you jump, you uses verry much stamina. I am jumping just for fun and then i have lost all my stamina

[badmojo420]

sickly, what your asking for is possible. But it would require a total rework of not only the mod, but a lot of bf2 statics. Anything that would need to be passable would need new collision meshes done with invisible ramps. And also it would be returning first person shooters to the days of Doom, jumping is not only realistic, but adds a huge dynamic to a game.

[Spaz]

Originally Posted by thebigkiller1256

I hate when you jump, you uses verry much stamina. I am jumping just for fun and then i have lost all my stamina

I have a solution for that, stop jumping.

[sickly]

Originally Posted by badmojo420

sickly, what your asking for is possible. But it would require a total rework of not only the mod, but a lot of bf2 statics. Anything that would need to be passable would need new collision meshes done with invisible ramps. And also it would be returning first person shooters to the days of Doom, jumping is not only realistic, but adds a huge dynamic to a game.

Yes, it potentially means more work (depending on how much altering you're talking about), but hardly an impossible task.

To be honest, you could just get rid of the jump feature, leave the maps as they are and the change would hardly be noticeable to most players.

A player can already navigate around most of the PR maps without having to jump at all (my earlier comment was in reference to situations where I was trying to get quick access to an area, instead of patiently going around said static object).

If you are going to change the maps, most objects don't need to be altered, just gotten rid of--their main purpose is to be eye-candy and are definitely not necessary to good gameplay.

As others have mentioned, some changes to statics like curbs would be for convenience's sake--I mean, getting stopped in your tracks just because you approach a curb from a diagonal direction...please.

For the most part it just means adding gaps in short walls that you would normally jump over, or replacing them with higher walls that you could never jump over.

Please do not exaggerate: jumping does not add a HUGE dynamic to the game.

Most PR maps are built around choke points (i.e. they are maze-like to focus fighting into specific areas). Jumping will not allow you to bypass most barriers (believe me, I have tried); you need the Grappling Hook for that. I have witnessed little to no jumping in the PR rounds I have played (and almost no bunnyhopping I'm happy to say).

As for realism: ...hah! Soldiers do not jump up onto stuff in RL combat situations. They rarely climb up onto stuff in RL combat situations (which is what the jumping would supposedly simulate as the mantling function is not implemented in the BF2 engine). Their feet stay firmly on the ground 99% of the time.

Also it looks terribly cheesy when you see BF2 characters jumping, which just degrades immersion.

If you want to jump onto/over objects perhaps Super Mario is the game for you.

...And what's wrong with Doom?!

[[R-CON]ChiefRyza]

Yes but with the way BF2 terrain is by default, sometimes jumping is the only way to get up, this can be seen at its most (annoying) on Korengal Valley. Its limited size means that if you wanted a climbable cliffside you would have to stretch it out about 1000 meters so its angle is low enough to scale. Jumping is also the only way to move over a tiny object as well sometimes.

You take out jumping, and you'll see people struggling to get over a gutter on the side of a road, or get on top of a crate to get a better firing position. If the engine wasn't so damn limited, we might be able to add a climb up feature and THAT would be a great alternative. The truth is though that jumping is the closest thing we have to this and mappers jobs are going to be extremely hard just trying to make a map navigable without it.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see an end to bunny hoppers (though in PR bunny hoppers normally die quicker than anyone else) but this is a simple side effect.

[sickly]

Originally Posted by ChiefRyza

Yes but with the way BF2 terrain is by default, sometimes jumping is the only way to get up, this can be seen at its most (annoying) on Korengal Valley. Its limited size means that if you wanted a climbable cliffside you would have to stretch it out about 1000 meters so its angle is low enough to scale.

Ok but jumping makes little to no difference when ascending hills (i.e. the angle is the same no matter what, so either you can get up it or you can't).

Originally Posted by ChiefRyza

Jumping is also the only way to move over a tiny object as well sometimes.

Yes that is true and they are frustrating. Get rid of them. They are not needed.

Originally Posted by ChiefRyza

You take out jumping, and you'll see people struggling to get over a gutter on the side of a road, or get on top of a crate to get a better firing position.

Yes but you can get past the curb/gutter if you approach it from a perpendicular angle and the crate should be gotten rid of if it's not necessary to gameplay--in RL, soldiers would hide behind it at best (wouldn't get on top of it), usually they'd avoid it altogether as it offers too little cover.

Originally Posted by ChiefRyza

If the engine wasn't so damn limited, we might be able to add a climb up feature and THAT would be a great alternative. The truth is though that jumping is the closest thing we have to this and mappers jobs are going to be extremely hard just trying to make a map navigable without it.

Yes it would be nice to be able to climb and I am taking the jump equivalent into account but as I said, most maps are perfectly navigable without jumping (areas where you normally would climb are climbable using grappling hook or there is a ladder/stairs).

Jumping over small obstacles just saves you having to go around (so speeds things up a bit and/or reduces exposure). The map modder's job is to alter the objects slightly so that jumping will give you virtually no advantage (I suggested just adding in convenient gaps in some of the short barriers) or just plain get rid of them.

Originally Posted by ChiefRyza

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see an end to bunny hoppers (though in PR bunny hoppers normally die quicker than anyone else) but this is a simple side effect.

That's because us mature players make damn sure to let those guys know what we think of that $hit by giving them our full attention.

[badmojo420]

Originally Posted by sickly

Yes, it potentially means more work (depending on how much altering you're talking about), but hardly an impossible task.

To be honest, you could just get rid of the jump feature, leave the maps as they are and the change would hardly be noticeable to most players.

A player can already navigate around most of the PR maps without having to jump at all (my earlier comment was in reference to situations where I was trying to get quick access to an area, instead of patiently going around said static object).

True, you could navigate most of the maps without having to jump. But, all the current maps were made with knowledge that the player will have the ability to jump. To clear a small wall or rock, etc. Just removing the jump ability alone would change how maps are played. I couldn't imagine trying to fire an RPG from behind some of the taller walls. Or sniper from most roofs since i'd have to stand to see over the wall. Also a lot of the accessible rooftops would now be inaccessible since we rely on the few buildings with stairs pushed up against others. And most of the buildings with stairs are EA models with rooftop walls. The list goes on and on.

If you are going to change the maps, most objects don't need to be altered, just gotten rid of--their main purpose is to be eye-candy and are definitely not necessary to good gameplay.

They are not just eye-candy, but both long range (because undergrowth like rocks and bushes dont display at distance) and short range cover. How many times have you seen people using the curbs in fallujah as cover? Laying down at a corner or high spot.

As others have mentioned, some changes to statics like curbs would be for convenience's sake--I mean, getting stopped in your tracks just because you approach a curb from a diagonal direction...please.

I agree with you on the curbs of fallujah, but that's a unique case, those are not supposed to be walked on that way.

For the most part it just means adding gaps in short walls that you would normally jump over, or replacing them with higher walls that you could never jump over.

So for the most part, like editing a bunch of bf2 and pr statics? Oh wait we can't edit bf2 models, so just edit custom ones and what? Make all new stuff?

Please do not exaggerate: jumping does not add a HUGE dynamic to the game.

Does jumping add a HUGE dynamic to a game? No

Does jumping add a HUGE dynamic to PR in its current state? Yes

Most PR maps are built around choke points (i.e. they are maze-like to focus fighting into specific areas). Jumping will not allow you to bypass most barriers (believe me, I have tried); you need the Grappling Hook for that. I have witnessed little to no jumping in the PR rounds I have played (and almost no bunnyhopping I'm happy to say).

So if you've witnessed so little jumping or bunny hopping, why do you want it removed from the game? So a group of soldier don't hop a stone wall and take cover when they start taking fire? Instead they all make a nice line and walk to the gate? Or wait you wanted invisible ramps around every low wall? Which wouldn't look or play very realistic.

As for realism: ...hah! Soldiers do not jump up onto stuff in RL combat situations. They rarely climb up onto stuff in RL combat situations (which is what the jumping would supposedly simulate as the mantling function is not implemented in the BF2 engine). Their feet stay firmly on the ground 99% of the time.

Also it looks terribly cheesy when you see BF2 characters jumping, which just degrades immersion.

You've never seen a soldier step over a low wall? Climb onto a roof top? Step across a small ditch?

What degrades immersion for me are artificial barriers. Like the edges of the maps, bad collision meshes that create invisible walls, shorelines that are too steep to get up, and if you got your way, 3 ft walls.

If you want to jump onto/over objects perhaps Super Mario is the game for you.

...And what's wrong with Doom?!

If i owned a WII i would buy it. I played them all upto Mario 64. I still break out the GBA with NES version of Super Marios Bros 3 sometimes. I also have Doom for it they're both great games. I referenced doom because it was 15 years old. Saying that removing jump from PR would be a big step backwards.