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Old 10-12-2017, 06:04 PM   #101
CAS_ual_TY
PR Server License Administrator

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Default Re: New Vehicle Icons

Quote:
Originally Posted by HOLLYWOODY View Post
[...]What is the point of the current and proposed asset classifications?

server rules>asset classes[current/proposed]>vehicles


v1.4.17 public server vehicle claiming rules: "Transport, Mech Inf/APC, Tank/Armour/SPG, CAS"

Unless a new, simplified classification system matches the server rules, I think there will still exist an unnecessary layer of confusion regarding asset classes.

*server rules>asset classes[matches server rules]>vehicles

[...]
I have written the rules of DPRC and A94. I know what problems the icons are in terms of rules. The current proposed system will allow servers to base of their claiming rules on icons from now on, without any complication or rule changing. Literally only basing the rules of of icons is whats needed. New systems will also be possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HOLLYWOODY View Post
[...]Can we assign every vehicle an individual asset name and icon?

*server rules>asset names[individual vehicles]>vehicles
It is possible. But I wont create icons for every single vehicle and I doubt anyone else will do it. It would also take even more sprite space, while making everything way more complicated as well, and harder to learn.

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Old 10-12-2017, 09:10 PM   #102
[R-DEV]Rhino
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Default Re: New Vehicle Icons

Nice work Casualty, looking really good! Loving the new Heavy ADV (Air Defence Vehicle, ie, AAV but AAV also means Amphib Assult Vehicle ), field gun, UAV and other tweaks!

Have you managed to test the idea of semi-transparent parts ingame for the Harrier GR3 and Dagger icons? Would be nice to see how they turn out as if they work well, we could possibly apply them to other icons to for not so important details etc like seats, windscreens etc

A few small tweaks that I think would help however

Firstly your open-top jeeps could have better seats, as well as all jeeps having a windscreen marked, and also for the centre closed top jeep having an ATGM on it rather than a MG as a quick POC of that idea


For the Anti-Ship (Super Etendard) icon, I think making it slightly wider like this might work better


Also worth doing all the missile loadouts like you have for the others btw

Also still think the Sampan boat could use a bit of work still, making it more the shape it should be, being thinner etc and with a more obvious front and back (more square back, with engine and possibly with the propeller rod sticking out?) and possibly an MG on the front of it too?

Other than that, think the others are perfect!

Keep up[ the excellent work!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivancic1941 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vista View Post
Give this young fella some R-CON tags already
Haha lollllll Good one!
Ivancic I don't know if your aware of this but every R- Dev, Con etc has come from the community, by doing work in these forums just like this, including myself and we often still promote people, only a few weeks ago w0lf3k for his work on the CG.

Also speaking frankly about Casualty here, at this point unless any of the team has a serious objection, the only thing that would stop him from getting R-CON tags is if he didn't want to do any future work for PR and this is just a one-off thing but we will be speaking soon to him about soon this since the quality of this work and how he has taken onboard feedback etc is exactly what we look for in team members.

Finally, I shouldn't have to do this but just to prove the fact this is the case, I, in fact, made a topic about Casualty a couple of weeks ago about the possibility of making an R-CON for his work here:


Quote:
Originally Posted by HOLLYWOODY View Post
...
Please don't spam questions if you don't get an immediate response. No one is going to take you seriously if you do and you will just end up with infractions if you continue. Thanks.

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Last edited by [R-DEV]Rhino; 10-12-2017 at 09:16 PM..
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Old 10-13-2017, 02:27 AM   #103
HOLLYWOODY
Default Re: New Vehicle Icons

CAS_ual_TY,
Unless it was just less work in beginning for Chuc or whoever, I still don't understand the need for the current asset classification system. You said the proposed system will allow servers to have claiming rules based on icons. Let me break the problem down further by your two server examples:

1. DPRC

5. Assets and Claiming
5.1. Squads named, “Mortar”, “APC”, “Tank”, “Trans” or “CAS” claim specific assets. The name has to be clear (not “C@$” etc.)!
5.2. Claiming asset squads can only claim 1 type of assets at once!
5.3. The squadleader of claiming asset squads has full controll over the assets. Do not steal any assets and do not take them if the squadleader does not tell you to do so.
5.4. All available assets must be used immediately on spawn if the situation does not lead to an instant death of the asset after leaving main base (1 jet vs. 4 jets etc.).
5.5. “Mortar” claims all mortar emplacements.
5.6. “APC” claims all armored personnel carriers (APCs) and infantry fighting vehicles (IFVs).
5.7. “Tank” claims all tanks (MBTs). “Armour” does not claim anything!
5.8. “Trans” claims all transportation helicopters and planes. May be locked with 3 players.
5.9. “CAS” claims all jets and helicopters which give the pilot and/or the co-pilot the ability to fire any type of weapon.
5.10. Do not dublicate a claiming asset squad that already exists.
5.11. Do not take assets if you don’t know how to use them.
5.12. If the asset is not claimable or it has not yet been claimed the player who comes first gets controll over the asset. Leaving the asset means you also lose controll over it.
5.13. Do not waste any assets.
5.14. All assets have to be used properly (taking AAV just for roadkilling etc.).
5.15. Anti-air vehicles (AAVs) and anti-tank missile mounted vehicles (ATMs) are not claimable and considered heavy.

-Who gets rec_?

2. A94

6. Assets and Claiming
6.1. Squads named "Mortar", "APC", "Tank", "Trans" or "CAS" claim specific assets and are considered as asset squads. The name has to be clear!
6.2. "Mortar" claims all mortar emplacements.
6.3. "APC" claims all infantry fighting vehicles (IFVs) and armored personnel carriers (APCs) that require 2 crewman kits to be operated.
6.4. "Tank" claims all tanks (MBTs).
6.5. "Trans" claims all transportation helicopters and planes. May be locked with 3 players.
6.6. "CAS" claims all jets and attack helicopters.
6.7. Asset squads can only claim 1 type of assets at once!
6.8. Do not lock asset squads with less people than required to properly man all available assets except when allowed to do so.
6.9. The squadleader of asset squads has full controll over the assets. Do not steal any assets and do not take them if the squadleader does not tell you to do so.
6.10. All available assets must be used immediately on spawn if the situation does not lead to an immediate death of the asset after leaving main base (1 jet vs. 4 jets etc.).
6.11. Do not duplicate an asset squad that already exists.
6.12. Do not take assets if you don't know how to use them.
6.13. If the asset is not claimable or it has not yet been claimed the player who comes first gets controll over the asset until he leaves it.
6.14. All assets have to be used properly (not taking AAV just for roadkilling etc.).

-Who gets rec_?
-Who gets aav_?
-Who gets atm_?

On top of these rule problems, the proposed system has at least 3 sub-classification icons for all major vehicle classifications. This appears to be complicated and in need of rule changes unlike you claim.

Putting it overly simple, we could create one icon each for all Tanks, APCs, CAS, and Trans because that's what most servers recognize. If everyone is against this because it's too basic, then we should give every vehicle its own icon instead of symbols of their class. You said this is possible. If you won't create icons for every vehicle then I will if that's what needs to be done. I don't know what you mean by more sprite space or harder to learn. I agree that custom icons will be a little bit more complicated to implement than the proposed system but the final product will be superior because of individual vehicle distinction. The proposed changes shouldn't be considered like Tbob fixing the game-font resolution. That makes the alphabet look better, the alphabet is fine how it works. The proposed system is trying to accomplish the same kind of visual improvement for vehicle icons but our "vehicle alphabet" is the actual problem I'm trying to address which the changes don't seem to be solving when they can too. All I'm saying is if we want better icons, the best icons would obviously be those for every individual vehicle. The easy fix is basic asset icons to match generic server asset classification. Your proposed system still requires rule changes, sub-asset-classification translation and uses the same icons for similar but different vehicles. The longer fix is custom vehicle icons that can all be differentiated to look as close to what they actually are and will allow servers to list the specific vehicles each squad can claim.


Rhino,
I will try not to but I respectfully disagree. The original post author and a developer both initially passed up my valid question. How am I supposed to know whether or not anyone sees a post unless someone responds to it specifically? If I don't respond to someone by accident, I hope they would have the courage to get my attention without the fear of receiving infractions; especially it they are trying to help. I'm actually trying to be constructive like you while others are actually diluting the thread. Also, for your information, I have exercised patience here before with no result. I still haven't received responses from any PR team members that I sent basic private messages to only once which is separately frustrating.

Anyway, do you have thoughts on the issues I presented?
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Last edited by HOLLYWOODY; 10-13-2017 at 07:25 AM.. Reason: corrected DPRC rules
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Old 10-13-2017, 03:11 AM   #104
CAS_ual_TY
PR Server License Administrator

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Default Re: New Vehicle Icons

I dont see a single point. You took the DPRC Squad rules btw. And our question of "who claims x" is simple: No one, just like now. Just because I make it possible, doesnt mean everything has to be claimable.

So, up to this point, not a single problem.

And now your main "point": "This system making it overly complicated": It doesnt. This is simpler than having a custom icon for every vehicle. And if youd give the same icon to all APCs, then you have the same icon for:

BTR-60PB, MT-LB, MT-LB 6MA, Boragh on Muttrah. 4 vehicles sharing the same icon.

Really like, I dont see a valid point here, at all

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Old 10-13-2017, 06:00 AM   #105
HOLLYWOODY
Default Re: New Vehicle Icons

My mistake with the wrong DPRC rules, I should've double checked when I thought something seemed off but I didn't know they had a squad server also. The rec_ vehicles are still in question regarding their PR rule set.

The first concept I'm proposing is that whatever is claimable should be very obvious without any asset classification translation. For example, if any vehicle has a basic APC icon, it would be claimed by the APC squad. The generic icons may be too basic but this concept would be the easiest to grasp for anyone new to the game. This is the point. For your Muttrah example, presumably, the Boragh wouldn't have the same APC icon as the other 3 on A94 since it only needs one crewman and is unclaimable. The proposed system would show 4 different but very similar icons, one of which is not claimable.

Custom icons may be a little bit more work but we would definitely get a better final product, right? Besides the extra work, which we can all help with, you haven't provided a good reason why we shouldn't give every vehicle its own icon. I feel like with all the different sub-classifications we might as well just give every vehicle its own icon and get rid of the classifications altogether. If icon continuity on different maps matters then the proposed system should just move towards the more generic icons approach otherwise we need to fully commit to custom icons.

I just don't see why the new system should continue to make us settle somewhere between easy comprehension and maximum detail. We shouldn't have to go to an external website to see which squad claims which types of vehicles then figure out which specific vehicles fall into those type categories. If we do have to follow guidelines somewhere, they should list the specific vehicles every squad claims and every vehicle should get its own icon for aesthetic purposes. Does this make any sense?
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Old 10-13-2017, 07:32 AM   #106
CAS_ual_TY
PR Server License Administrator

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Default Re: New Vehicle Icons

About the first point: Please look at the Shitbox/APC/IFV icons again. All use the same base. But you can easily see the difference between Shitboxes (single-pixel turrets), APCs (round, blanc turret), IFVs (squared turret, hatch, ATGM carrier, small coax barrel). A94 can easily make their rules depend on icons. Open 1-crewman APCs use the light shitbox icon (left of the Shitbox row), including Boragh, M113, Fuchs, VAB etc. I made that icon purposely have a bit more difference than other icons having that rule in mind. So for the rules I add all 3 IFV, all 3 APC, but only medium and heavy shitbox icon. Done.

I have given a reason. Another reason is that you simply can not make that many icons while making them look good as well. Try making all these different helicopters with different loadouts and you will see, 80% will look shit, or all will look the same.

But right now you have to go to an external website to see claiming rules? And why is it less complicated to list every single asset than just saying: "APC claims these 5 icons X X X X X", "CAS claims these icons: X X X X X X X" etc.

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Old 10-13-2017, 08:47 AM   #107
Ivancic1941
Default Re: New Vehicle Icons

Quote:
Originally Posted by [R-DEV]Rhino View Post




Ivancic I don't know if your aware of this but every R- Dev, Con etc has come from the community, by doing work in these forums just like this, including myself and we often still promote people, only a few weeks ago w0lf3k for his work on the CG.

Also speaking frankly about Casualty here, at this point unless any of the team has a serious objection, the only thing that would stop him from getting R-CON tags is if he didn't want to do any future work for PR and this is just a one-off thing but we will be speaking soon to him about soon this since the quality of this work and how he has taken onboard feedback etc is exactly what we look for in team members.

Finally, I shouldn't have to do this but just to prove the fact this is the case, I, in fact, made a topic about Casualty a couple of weeks ago about the possibility of making an R-CON for his work here:




Please don't spam questions if you don't get an immediate response. No one is going to take you seriously if you do and you will just end up with infractions if you continue. Thanks.
Upps, I REALLY REALLY didnt taugh that about Casual,actually Im folowing his work from begining and wanted to ask FH2 devs if they have someone to do same for FH2 icons.
I somehow taught that Vista refered to Hollywood because hes annoyingly spaming thread, but.... Just forget it.

Casual sry for that. If this gets ingame, my eyes wont go red anymore of looking icons on minimap .

Also can minimap can be upgraded to HD somehow? Looking at Rhinos post with old version of your icons ingame, they look like they bounce of the minimap.
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Old 10-13-2017, 10:53 AM   #108
CAS_ual_TY
PR Server License Administrator

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Default Re: New Vehicle Icons

Okay. To start this off: I still recommend using the AAV/ATM icons I proposed, even for things like the SPG and the AA truck, as well as the TOW HMMWV. Simply because these vehicles all have the same "style" and base, and when it comes to them, their threat is more important than their "type". I also suggest using the jeep icons for the techie.

However, I made alternatives anyways. AA truck, TOW jeep, ammo/50/spg/rocket techie now have their own icons. If you wanna use them, go ahead. I still, however, do not recomment it.

Now the changes:
- Changed all jeep icons
- Changed light AAV icon
- Changed Super Etendard (I suggest simply using the attack version (no missiles shown) as the AS version)
- Changed sampan
- Added already mentioned alternatives (1st picture)


























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Old 10-13-2017, 05:32 PM   #109
[R-DEV]Rhino
PR:BF2 Developer
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Default Re: New Vehicle Icons

Awesome, loving the jeep icons! Your TOW Jeep is much better than mine hehe

I know what you mean in terms of them having the same sort of attack power of an ATGM carrier (other than only having one launcher opposed to multiple ones so longer time delay between fire), but the main difference is in manoeuvrability and armour, where a TOW HMMWV is a lot easier to kill than say a WZ550 etc and feel it is worth showing that

If others feel as you do then ye, can have them all using the ATGM carrier icon but think it is worth showing it

On the Anti-Ship Sup Et, while in r/l it didn't carry any AA missiles into battle, it could of and to make it more versatile I am planning on giving it tow R.550 Magic SRAAMs. As such, we could maybe do this to show it is carrying an Exocet? I know it isn't symmetrical and is unbalanced but don't think it is best not to show the drop tank as that will just confuse things more and sticks out more if you only show the Exocet



I've also made the cockpit a tiny bit bigger, think it looks better myself

BTW decent ref with Exocet it if you want to improve: https://i.imgur.com/v6nFSWO.jpg


Sampan updates are good but I think it is worth making it smaller and thinner, as right now it is pretty much the same size as a Swiftboat where they are on the whole, much smaller than even a RPB


Keep up the excellent work!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivancic1941 View Post
Also can minimap can be upgraded to HD somehow? Looking at Rhinos post with old version of your icons ingame, they look like they bounce of the minimap.
You mean the actual minimap image? Yes we can make them higher rez but doing so eats up a hell of a lot of memory, far more than just upping the rez of the icons for not that much return.

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Old 10-13-2017, 06:36 PM   #110
HOLLYWOODY
Default Re: New Vehicle Icons

I can see the differences between the icons. I don't understand why you don't think we can make good custom icons when you noted the distinct detail that's capable.

1. Muttrah problem: "APC" claims APCs/IFVs/etc.

-What is considered an APC? What is considered an IFV?

2a. Proposed system solution: "APC" claims icons C (rec_ icon), E/F (box_ icons), G/I (apc_ icons)

-Icon 'D' looks like 'E/F' + different faction vehicles share icons

2b. Basic system solution: "APC" claims APCs(one apc_ icon) or APCs(one apc_ icon)/IFVs(one ifv_ icon)

-One or two emcompassing icons + different vehicles share icons + different faction vehicles share icons

2c. Detailed system solution: "APC" claims MT-LB, MT-LB 6M, MT-LB 6MA, BTR-60PB, FV101 Scorpion, etc. (custom icons)

-All vehicles have unique icons

I'm trying to think big picture and pretending to be new to the game. We should be able to easily tell which vehicles are apart of which squad, the detail is mostly irrelvant. I shouldn't have to know which vehicles fall into which asset classes. I shouldn't have to study hieroglyphs to figure out exactly which vehicles I can use. If we want more detail and differentiation then let's make custom icons because squads will be able to claim assets by name, not by asset classification or symbol; unless the classification and/or symbol are generic.
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Last edited by HOLLYWOODY; 10-13-2017 at 08:37 PM..
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