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Old 10-10-2015, 12:01 AM   #31
Bluedrake42
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Default Re: PR: ARMA 3 Development Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dougalachi View Post
Normally I don't feed the trolls...

Now is your chance to continue the development of the mod (or have someone else do it for you) assuming you follow the terms of the agreement.

Or are you just here to gloat about other people quitting the project that you were turned down from helping? Somehow I think we all believe this is the real reason.

Put your money where your mouth is, everyone would think better of you for it.

(Sorry for the off-topic)
lol I'm not touching this with a 10 foot pole.

http://www.realitymod.com/forum/f586...ml#post2042388

Quote:
Originally Posted by [R-DEV]epoch View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluedrake42 View Post
As far as I can tell, the entire Project Reality "franchise" is falling apart
No it isn't.

As usual Bluedrake, you're full of shit, and have no idea what you're talking about. Go peddle your propaganda somewhere else. I'll give you time to read this, then I'll be perm banning you because (a) I feel like it, and (b) you clearly don't wanna be round here.
The attitude of the Project Reality team has become considerably more poisonous over the years. The lack of transparency, combined with their refusal to accept either help or criticism is leading to the end of the Project Reality franchise as a whole.

Project Reality 2 has now ceased development, as has Project Reality ArmA... as predicted. We can only hope Project Reality: World War 2 and the Falklands, along with the original mod continue development as long as they can.

The only gloating that should be going around is this. How long are we going to let projects die, and let our worst predictions actually come true before someone admits that something is fundamentally wrong and that it needs to change.

If Project Reality is going to survive, we need to take things back to the drawing board, we need to be more open minded, and we need to start having more open discussions on how to most efficiently and effectively manage the development of projects.

I'm not going to help people who are going to fight me over it. I'm not here to "win people in this community over" lol. I have my own community and we like our own neck of the woods. So if you're gonna say "people would like me better for it" you all can ride this titanic all the way to hell as far as I'm concerned lol. I don't like you any more than you like me.

However, I do believe in the Project Reality brand. At the end of the day I owe it a great deal to my life. And I feel obligated to keep coming back here and trying to keep it alive, and maybe one day we'll all actually get along enough to sit down and be like "okay this shit is falling apart, how can we work together to keep it together."

Otherwise I'm just gonna keep running my server, come in here every so often and be like "yeah that's not good, something is wrong here" have a bunch of people say I'm a lying piece of shit, have no one do anything about it, then have what I say actually come true and everyone be upset about it.

GG.

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Last edited by Bluedrake42; 10-10-2015 at 02:25 AM.. Reason: Grammar Nazi
Old 10-10-2015, 01:15 AM   #32
VOWFallen
Default Re: PR: ARMA 3 Development Update

Lol, permaban cause I feel like it. Never been a better reason to ban someone. I can't believe you're even an admin. In my opinion, nothing Bluedrake even said is grounds to ban him, the first thing you called out was clearly a joke, the second I don't know the truth, so idk who to believe, and the third he even wrote "As far as I can tell" so that's his opinion and not worthy of a ban.
I hope you would never ban him otherwise that would just prove Bluedrake's point.

Btw, I'm not a Bluedrake fan, I personally don't even like how he handles his squads and try to avoid them. I prefer SideStrafe myself. I just feel if you followed through with your threat it would be such an abuse of power.
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Old 10-10-2015, 01:30 AM   #33
[R-DEV]camo
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Default Re: PR: ARMA 3 Development Update

oh lordy this thread has gone down hill.

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Old 10-10-2015, 02:19 AM   #34
Bluedrake42
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Default Re: PR: ARMA 3 Development Update

and I'm just over here like


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Old 10-10-2015, 02:45 AM   #35
[R-DEV]Rhino
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Default Re: PR: ARMA 3 Development Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluedrake42 View Post
The attitude of the Project Reality team has become considerably more poisonous over the years. The lack of transparency, combined with their refusal to accept either help or criticism is leading to the end of the Project Reality franchise as a whole.
In what areas exactly have (The PR:BF2 team at the very least) not been transparent or accepted criticism? Sure in some areas I agree we haven't communicated to the community on stuff as much as we have on the past but I don't think we are hiding anything other than of course things like release dates and some projects we are working on for obvious reasons. I and most of the other devs are willing to answer any questions posted on these forums and many of us spend quite some time every day going over the public forums and answering questions where we can, and while sometimes we might not show it we do consider all (constructive at the very least) criticism the community posts on the forums.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluedrake42 View Post
If Project Reality is going to survive, we need to take things back to the drawing board, we need to be more open minded, and we need to start having more open discussions on how to most efficiently and effectively manage the development of projects.
Project Reality was never setup to be anything more than just a BF2 mod and is really unfit foundation for any other purpose. This is one of the biggest reasons behind the creation of Squad, so they could start fresh without the baggage PR has and with a proper foundation for a commercial game (lots of legal stuff etc to sort out, something you can't do with PR's foundation), which is a lot its gotten over the past 10 years of development with no one from the orignal team being on the mod, with myself being the longest serving dev and I only joined the team in v0.25

As such, Project Reality: BF2, its Mini Mods (PR:WW2 and PR:Falklands) and a bunch of Community Factions that are still in the works are our main focus and the future of PR gamepay as your well aware, is in Squad which is being developed by many ex-PR:BF2 devs but even with Squad in the works, I see PR:BF2 going for some time yet as its going to take Squad some time to get the massive amount of content and features that PR:BF2 that it has gotten from its 10 years of development.

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Last edited by [R-DEV]Rhino; 10-10-2015 at 02:51 AM..
Old 10-10-2015, 02:45 AM   #36
[R-DEV]camo
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Default Re: PR: ARMA 3 Development Update

I wouldn't worry yourself bluedrake, core pr is doing just fine.

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Old 10-10-2015, 02:55 AM   #37
Deadfast
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Default Re: PR: ARMA 3 Development Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluedrake42 View Post
The attitude of the Project Reality team has become considerably more poisonous over the years. The lack of transparency, combined with their refusal to accept either help or criticism is leading to the end of the Project Reality franchise as a whole.
As has the "help" from the community. What do you think "criticism" like this does for the morale of a team? It certainly doesn't help, I can tell you that much.

The project has now been made public on GitHub, you can't go any more transparent than that.

You could argue that we should have done this sooner and I'll be the first one to agree. But please remember that this was my hobby, a side project that we worked on in our spare time.

Unfortunately over time I completely lost motivation, I got burned out. Party because it felt too much like my day job and party because I felt that nobody appreciated what I was doing. As the lead developer this was a death blow to the project and there was nobody else in the team skilled enough to step up and replace me.

I was hoping that one day all the motivation would come back and I would be able to finish the project because I poured hours of my life into it. As we can all see now that has not happened.

It took AncientMan pestering me to realize that. If I could barely force myself to port it from SVN to GitHub how was I meant to ever continue working on it?

So there you have it, you're free to fork it and build your own community around it. I'm actively monitoring the forks and I may even provide feedback when I have a few minutes. Who knows, in time I may even contribute some changes again. I do not, however, foresee myself taking on any kind of extra-active role.

EDIT:
I would also like to point out that this has absolutely no impact on any other project than PR:A3. The A3 and BF2 teams were always separate, something I would say in hindsight was a mistake.
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Last edited by Deadfast; 10-10-2015 at 03:19 AM..
Old 10-10-2015, 04:15 AM   #38
Bluedrake42
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Default Re: PR: ARMA 3 Development Update

Hey that's fine, and I'm happy to actually talk about this as long as I'm not being threatened with bans and whatnot. So if we're at the point where we can actually talk about this without the power plays then cool.

Anyways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by [R-DEV]Rhino View Post
Project Reality was never setup to be anything more than just a BF2 mod and is really unfit foundation for any other purpose. This is one of the biggest reasons behind the creation of Squad, so they could start fresh without the baggage PR has and with a proper foundation for a commercial game.
And I guess that's the root of this. Which was never really openly mentioned to anyone, but if Project Reality is just going to lie down and accept its fate then sure. I guess I can understand that. Makes me a little more depressed sticking around on a game that openly accepts its demise but... at least then we're all on the same page.

Quote:
Originally Posted by [R-DEV]Rhino View Post
In what areas exactly have (The PR:BF2 team at the very least) not been transparent or accepted criticism?
Okay well... first off I'm not talking about PR:BF2. You guys are still around for a reason. If its not broke don't fix it. So I'm not even talking about that.

HOWEVER. I would like to stress, THE AMOUNT OF EFFORT I have to put in just to glean even the smallest piece of information on the status of internal development for both Project Reality 2 and Project Reality ArmA is absurd.

So while I'm sure Epoch and others would like to say "Bluedrake you just don't understand what's going on, and you're making ignorant statements on our internal development process" OF COURSE I AM. Honestly I don't even think you all even communicate with each other. Sometimes I'm sitting here talking with developers, and it seems like you all are just as disconnected with each other as I am. Awesome.

I'm sitting here making the most informed conjectures that I can with the limited information I have available. And what I hear and see troubles me, and when I see stuff like this it only reinforces my opinion that my assumptions were correct, and that there are critical interpersonal and logistical issues keeping Project Reality from moving forward.

Quote:
Originally Posted by [R-DEV]Deadfast View Post
As has the "help" from the community. What do you think "criticism" like this does for the morale of a team? It certainly doesn't help, I can tell you that much.
Okay well... I guess also before we go any further let's just clear that up. To think that I'm any more interested in your all's "morale" than you are interested in mine is kindof insulting. So let's just like... not pretend my sole interest here is to tell you pretty lies that keep you happy. I'm not particularly keen on being anything other than blunt about this. Nothing more than what I'd expect from you all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by [R-DEV]Deadfast View Post
Unfortunately over time I completely lost motivation, I got burned out. Party because it felt too much like my day job and party because I felt that nobody appreciated what I was doing. As the lead developer this was a death blow to the project and there was nobody else in the team skilled enough to step up and replace me.
That's the first mistake. The fact that Project Reality is treated like a AAA development team when its not. The first paramount issue with Project Reality is its inability to make scale-able development plans. Only releasing huge chunks of content at a time and setting absurdly ambitious goals that prove to be too stressful for a team of hobbyist developers.

To scrap an entire project, and the development team behind it (PR:ArmA2) to build an entirely new project from scratch... while simultaneously maintaining such a small dedicated team and ambitious goals was fundamentally misguided. There were many shortcuts and less exhaustive paths that could have been taken, but I am highly suspicious that stubbornness and pride got in the way.

Of course my first solution to this would be "COMMERCIALIZE THE GAME!?!" which I pushed for a long time... but seeing that that never happened, and probably will never happen... I still think there are many ways we can move forward in Project Reality's current state, and make the most of what's left. Being that everyone who agreed with me over at Squad has obviously taken the commercial route, and of course I'm gonna ride that ship all the way to Valhalla... but I'd also prefer not to just commit Project Reality to a death bed.

Quote:
So what am I'm saying can be done?
Project Reality needs to start biting off what it can chew. AKA smaller bites... if you just aren't following me. More frequent updates with smaller projects. To build both more intensive community interaction, and also maintain a steady release schedule to motivate developers.

Also this is a genuine question... what is the cross compatibility for Project Reality assets from Battlefield 2? Like I'm sitting here looking at some of these models and...



Seriously can someone explain to me why you aren't building a core library of assets that can be used cross-platform? Hell like... look at this shit: Military 3D Models and Textures | TurboSquid.com

I've worked with developers before. I have purchased work from that site, and I've had developers use those assets in their games.

And don't get confused... I'm not sitting here telling you that you need to buy models off TurboSquid. However, why aren't you building a similar private library that you can use yourself?

Perhaps you'll tell me "oh well ArmA just accepts a fundamentally different format than Battlefield 2" and I'll be like okay... well. First off... to what extent? Is there still a point where you could build content, maybe without textures... or baking it or like god I have no idea anything. Can you just do work. And have that work mean that other development teams can pull from that pool of work. And not have to do more work in the future.

And then secondly. If you have a core library of assets only compatible with certain games or formats... then maybe just build that core library anyways and only focus on platforms that are compatible with them?

Why do I keep seeing your projects like ArmA and PR2 redeveloping the exact same assets for no reason? Like what's the point of having a single brand if you can't even pull from a joint pool of resources? At that point you might as well not even call it Project Reality ArmA. Just "another random tactical mod that has no affiliation with anything being made by itself" fucking woo.

Holy god its so late.

Look here I'm just saying. I could go on. I'm not a developer, I'm sure you all know more about the specifics than I do. However, I think there are still many ways that we could discuss this... and find considerably more effective and efficient ways to manage your development. You can hate on me all you want, but if we actually hashed this shit out... I guarantee either you or I will think up some pretty good ideas to smooth out your internal and logistical issues.

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Last edited by Bluedrake42; 10-10-2015 at 04:34 AM..
Old 10-10-2015, 04:56 AM   #39
ComedyInK

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Default Re: PR: ARMA 3 Development Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluedrake42 View Post


Perhaps you'll tell me "oh well ArmA just accepts a fundamentally different format than Battlefield 2" and I'll be like okay... well. First off... to what extent? Is there still a point where you could build content, maybe without textures... or baking it or like god I have no idea anything. Can you just do work. And have that work mean that other development teams can pull from that pool of work. And not have to do more work in the future.
Maybe it's time you learn and contribute.

That 'to what extent' is the single reason that I'm not pursing modding for PR:BF2. That is the single reason that my assets for WW2 have taken months to complete when they should take weeks.
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Old 10-10-2015, 05:05 AM   #40
Deadfast
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Default Re: PR: ARMA 3 Development Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluedrake42 View Post
Okay well... I guess also before we go any further let's just clear that up. To think that I'm any more interested in your all's "morale" than you are interested in mine is kindof insulting. So let's just like... not pretend my sole interest here is to tell you pretty lies that keep you happy. I'm not particularly keen on being anything other than blunt about this. Nothing more than what I'd expect from you all.
And that's your mistake. Now I'm not asking for a bi-weekly edition of "Just how amazing Deadfast is" but if every second post is somebody telling you just how wrong and pointless everything you are doing is then you bet it's demoralizing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluedrake42 View Post
That's the first mistake. The fact that Project Reality is treated like a AAA development team when its not. The first paramount issue with Project Reality is its inability to make scale-able development plans. Only releasing huge chunks of content at a time and setting absurdly ambitious goals that prove to be too stressful for a team of hobbyist developers.
I don't know what Project Reality you are talking about (as I already explained there are entirely different teams under the same brand) but the A3 team was never treated as anything resembling AAA development. And huge chunks at a time? Hardly, look at the original roadmap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluedrake42 View Post
To scrap an entire project, and the development team behind it (PR:ArmA2) to build an entirely new project from scratch... while simultaneously maintaining such a small dedicated team and ambitious goals was fundamentally misguided. There were many shortcuts and less exhaustive paths that could have been taken, but I am highly suspicious that stubbornness and pride got in the way.
The reasons for having to rewrite the code were explained in detail in the OP. The code base was on life support, collapsing under the immense weight of technical debt stemming from using shortcuts and less exhaustive paths.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluedrake42 View Post
Of course my first solution to this would be "COMMERCIALIZE THE GAME!?!" which I pushed for a long time... but seeing that that never happened, and probably will never happen... I still think there are many ways we can move forward in Project Reality's current state, and make the most of what's left. Being that everyone who agreed with me over at Squad has obviously taken the commercial route, and of course I'm gonna ride that ship all the way to Valhalla... but I'd also prefer not to just commit Project Reality to a death bed.
For some people making their hobby commercial is not something they are interested in. For some it's exactly what they want. Luckily there are choices!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluedrake42 View Post
Project Reality needs to start biting off what it can chew. AKA smaller bites... if you just aren't following me. More frequent updates with smaller projects. To build both more intensive community interaction, and also maintain a steady release schedule to motivate developers.
For PR:A3 that was the original goal. Put together a stable foundation and build upon that in increments. It was a perfectly reasonable goal at that point in time. Later my availability has changed and we made the mistake of not realizing just how much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluedrake42 View Post
Also this is a genuine question... what is the cross compatibility for Project Reality assets from Battlefield 2? Like I'm sitting here looking at some of these models and...



Seriously can someone explain to me why you aren't building a core library of assets that can be used cross-platform? Hell like... look at this shit.

Military 3D Models and Textures | TurboSquid.com

I've worked with developers before. I have purchased work from that site, and I've had developers use those assets in their games.

And don't get confused... I'm not sitting here telling you that you need to buy models off TurboSquid. However, why aren't you building a similar private library that you can use yourself?

Perhaps you'll tell me "oh well ArmA just accepts a fundamentally different format than Battlefield 2" and I'll be like okay... well. First off... to what extent? Is there still a point where you could build content, maybe without textures... or baking it or like god I have no idea anything. Can you just do work. And have that work mean that other development teams can pull from that pool of work. And not have to do more work in the future.

And then secondly. If you have a core library of assets only compatible with certain games or formats... then maybe just build that core library anyways and only focus on platforms that are compatible with them?

Why do I keep seeing your projects like ArmA and PR2 redeveloping the exact same assets for no reason? Like what's the point of having a single brand if you can't even pull from a joint pool of resources? At that point you might as well not even call it Project Reality ArmA. Just "another random tactical mod that has no affiliation with anything being made by itself" fucking woo.
For gameplay scripts there is absolutely no overlap whatsoever between BF2 and Arma. BF2 uses Python, Arma uses SQF. The difference in language isn't the biggest problem either, you could easily rewrite a script from one language to the other but the way the script "plugs into" the game will be different too.

For vehicle and weapon models it's comparatively simple. But you have to have a high-detail model to start from. That's a problem with many of the older BF2 assets - they were made specifically for the requirements of the BF2 engine. They simply will not look good in a newer engine. Furthermore each engine will require the model to be set up differently. This is a lot of work.

In either case this is irrelevant anyway, for A3 we didn't even get to a stage where models were required.
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