[Map] Xiangjiang River (2km) [WIP]

[[R-DEV]MAINERROR]

Looks promosing, keep it up.

I'll come up with a comment of a wise guy.

Originally Posted by [R-DEV]Dr Rank

I'm showing you as much progress as I can without showing really heavy WIP stuff because all I'll get from that is comments about how bad this bit is, and how people are worried about it not working etc etc. I already get enough of that as it is...

[[R-DEV]Hauteclocque]

Nice beginning.

[Tiny]

@ WilsonPL, constructive criticism. Not just I don't see anything new kthxbai. Anywho, do you see a map this size with the same layout, trees etc in PR atm?

@ HughJass, it's probably just as Tonnie said, the lightmapping. Rough quote from a chat with Nickbond "So when mappers take WIP their screenshots often look like crap because they haven't finished or even started lightmapping".

Looks good so far Madhouse, there's a lot of cover while at the same time being open, should make for some interesting firefights.

[Kenny]

Looks very nice so far I like the nice balance of the map and theirs going to be some nice batlles on that plateo in the Windfarm flag, also I noticed that black mark near the citidel on the bottem left what is it?

[[R-DEV]Rhino]

Yay a community faction map that is in China. Thank god its not anouther Afghan map, not that I have anything against them its just basically every community faction map is a afghan one

Right first of all to talk about your map layout etc, tbh I can't see the map working very well in its current layout. The main problem being that you have basically boxed in the ADF main in the corner, by 2 flags very close to it (its normally a bad idea to have flags very close to a main base since its very easy to hop from them to the main easily wiping out the other team before they can set-up a "last stand defence") and yoiu have also boxed them in quite a bit with the river. I'm also not much of a fan of having the main base so close to the edge of the map, which it will need to be right on the edge in this case.

Just to show you exactly what I mean I've drawn up a little diagram in photoshop of the NE corner of your map showing the only possible directions ADF can advance in and if the PLA team advanced this far up, where they could easily block in and hold the ADF from advancing.



From here the PLA have little to no chance braking though, PLA will most likley be in range of there main base, anything leaving or possibly even in there main base will be in the range of there guns so only a fully coordinated spear head would be able to punch though this defence at one point and if the PLA can shoot into there main that is hardly an option.

So IMO this part needs to be radically designed before you progress any further with the map.

As mentioned before I do not like main bases or other high value points being on the edge of the map, not just because you can see the outside terrain etc which on its own is a good enough reason why not to do it, but also because it takes away an options what so ever you might have to be able to flank your enemy. If there was some terrain behind the ADF main base here, your team would be able to double back and out flank the PLA defences, or if the PLA tried to surround your entire base then there defences would be so thin you could most likley punch though at most points with a small spearhead attack. But as such here the PLA only have 3 points to defend, with the terrain to there advantage such as the village, the rivers and the hills etc.

Now moving on from the ADF main base, what is the "Ancient Site" meant to be exactly? To me it dont seem much like a strategic location of any kind? Also what is the substation meant to be? I hope its not anouther missile silo... for your Wind Farm, its in a pretty damn odd location, in the middle of no where ontop of a hill with loads of trees which will be sucking out the wind? The only real strategic point about this flag is it is on the top of a hill, and as such its high ground which gives a little strategic advantage. Other than that it dont seem much like a high value point. The fact that there is a wind farm there still dont make that much seance, most of China's wind farms are in the west of china, where it is mainly open desert and there dose not seem to be much of a power requirement any where near these wind farms that I'm guessing via the terrain etc. You could possible get away with it there but I like things like that to make seance
For your Rest stop, seems just like an excuse to have a control point there, its jut a cross roads?
As for your Citadel, again not really a fan of it, seems too much of a copy of 7 gates kinda thing and its in kinda an odd location for one to be built in, apart from the hill and the rivers but none of the rest of the map would show any reason for one to be there? As for your China Main, again like the ADF main would move it away from the edge of your map and would also build it up into something looking semi strategical so lots of hesco etc. I'm also not too happy about the general location of your chinese main, that being that there is only a strait ~1.7km distance between the 2 mains, and if someone was going to travel in the direction of the enemy main (which you would be supervised how many ppl sometimes do) they would miss out 80% of the map. Also what types of vehicles are you thinking for this map? I know many people say "You shouldn't plan the exact assets you plan to have on the map when starting" but saying that, you should have an idea of what types of assets you would like to have on the map. For example, do you want any choppers on this map and if so, what types of chopper? attack, transport, light etc. Do you want just ground vehicles, are you planning any tanks, etc? These are all important things you need to keep in mind when desging a map, since if you have choppers then that can drastically change how a map will play if it was designed to be only a ground pounder map as things like choke points can be missed out by a chopper etc. I would also advise not to get carried away with "I want ADF to have 1 tank and 2 jeeps etc etc" but its a good idea to keep in mind what kind of assets are going onto this map and how they will effect how the map is played.


But anyways going back to control points, its up to you to decide on what exactly the control points are going to be and to try and make seance out of why they are there etc but here is what I would advise for your control point layout as in the positions of each flag etc.




Here I've made some pretty radical changes to your design. I've set this out with only ground vehicles in mind, some bits will need to be changed in order for it to work well with choppers too. What we want is all the bridges being big choke points and as such, they will be very valuable and will them and the rivers will play a very important part in the battle.

To start off with on terrain changes, added a river to the east of the map that joins onto the main river and added an important bridge of some kind crossing it. To the south of that I've added some kind of impassable terrain by land vehicles, ie, lots of steep cliffs and rocky edges, ie, a mountain or something. It is important that this can't be crossed by land vehicles. This is so the PLA can't rush strait too there from there main and the ADF can't rush into the PLA main. Next is I've removed the village from its old location and shoved it down south so its also nearer the citadel and its in a better place from a gameplay perspective. Added a random flag to the west, you will need to think up what it could be
Then also I've added a possible 2nd "PLA Main", which is really more a 2nd PLA spawn point since if you look at the supply group numbers I've added, both PLA mains dont have any. Instead what I think would be best is to attach both PLA mains onto the Citadel CP for that being PLA's last stand point. The ADF also really need something like that as it plays out much better if you dont have the final flag ontop of the location where the players and vehicles spawn as it just turns into a spawn rape at the end of the game.

If you where going to add any choppers on this map, PLA's would need to be in there SW base would be best, but would keep choppers to a minimum / none and only "light choppers" where possible. I wouldn't give any one any heavy transport choppers with supply crates etc and yes, with any luck at some point PLA should be getting a proper light transport chopper.


On other points, would really rethink your overgrowth, the current mix of fir and yellow birch looks really bad, for a start not much fir/pine actually grows in China even thou most of our chinese maps have it all over them so would try and use some other trees, the deciduous trees are quite good.

Originally Posted by HughJass

doesn't look bad for now, but I think the sky needs to be changed to a more sunny one if you are going with that lighting for the terrain/vegetation.

Ye, for a start your sky texture is used on soo many maps, OGT, AoM, Bi Ming and a bunch of others... Would look into a different sky as that one is really overused, but if you are going to use it you really need to change your lighting. What tonnie is saying is not acturally that true, yes lightmaps do have an effect on the overal appearance BUT they should not change your current lighting drastically, they should really just add shadows etc if done right, with your main light settings doing the main work, as otherwise objects that are not lightmapped such as dynamic objects like vehicles rolling around the map will stick out like a saw thumb and will be a simple target for a AT guy to pick out this glowing tank amongst the dark buildings.

I would also use more of the road tool and less of "painted roads" since the road tool adds lots more detail to a road


Anyways so far a good start, keep it up


EDIT: also some other idea might be to do this setup here:



it might look that its trying to not use that eastern part of the map but this layout actually gives that eastern part of the map a huge tactical advantage

[[R-DEV]Tonnie]

Rhino + lots of info and pics = You must finish

[[R-DEV]MAINERROR]

Ye if Rhino starts putting so much effort into your map than you have to finish it.

[WilsonPL]

do you see a map this size with the same layout, trees etc in PR atm?

Trees -> ghost train, qwai, kyonganni,
Sky -> ghost train,

imo It need some custom objects, not just default temples and chinese buildings.

[Madhouse]

Well you know, I was actually looking forward to Rhino's essay, he seems to always provide so much detail in his suggestions and critisms.

Now the fun of replying to all his points.

Originally Posted by [R-DEV]Rhino

Also what is the substation meant to be? I hope its not anouther missile silo...

Nope, a Substation in Australia is part of the electricity network. So its basically a power station for the windfarms power.

for your Wind Farm, its in a pretty damn odd location, in the middle of no where ontop of a hill with loads of trees which will be sucking out the wind? The only real strategic point about this flag is it is on the top of a hill, and as such its high ground which gives a little strategic advantage. Other than that it dont seem much like a high value point. The fact that there is a wind farm there still dont make that much seance, most of China's wind farms are in the west of china, where it is mainly open desert and there dose not seem to be much of a power requirement any where near these wind farms that I'm guessing via the terrain etc. You could possible get away with it there but I like things like that to make seance

In Australia, our windfarms are found atop of the higher mountain ranges, theres a windfarm just 30mins up the road from me stuck ontop of a ridge. The tree issue is void because i cleared the top and places some stumps.

As for strategic value, its got as much as a donkey with shaved testicals but in my wisdom as a beginner mapper i thought it'd be soo uber awesome to have a cappable windfarm on a map, something unique.

For your Rest stop, seems just like an excuse to have a control point there, its jut a cross roads?

Yerp was an excuse for a flag, its gone.

As for your Citadel, again not really a fan of it, seems too much of a copy of 7 gates kinda thing and its in kinda an odd location for one to be built in, apart from the hill and the rivers but none of the rest of the map would show any reason for one to be there?

It has that 7gates feel i admit, but i have thought of putting an underground complex under it like hills of hamong... but then again probabley not feasable.

As for your China Main, again like the ADF main would move it away from the edge of your map and would also build it up into something looking semi strategical so lots of hesco etc. I'm also not too happy about the general location of your chinese main, that being that there is only a strait ~1.7km distance between the 2 mains, and if someone was going to travel in the direction of the enemy main (which you would be supervised how many ppl sometimes do) they would miss out 80% of the map.

This will be fixed in the overhaul stated below.

Also what types of vehicles are you thinking for this map? I know many people say "You shouldn't plan the exact assets you plan to have on the map when starting" but saying that, you should have an idea of what types of assets you would like to have on the map. For example, do you want any choppers on this map and if so, what types of chopper? attack, transport, light etc. Do you want just ground vehicles, are you planning any tanks, etc? These are all important things you need to keep in mind when desging a map, since if you have choppers then that can drastically change how a map will play if it was designed to be only a ground pounder map as things like choke points can be missed out by a chopper etc. I would also advise not to get carried away with "I want ADF to have 1 tank and 2 jeeps etc etc" but its a good idea to keep in mind what kind of assets are going onto this map and how they will effect how the map is played.

I'm a infantry fan myself and the whole time while thinking out this map and making it is for infantry and light vechlies like the trucks and the bushmasters.

But anyways going back to control points, its up to you to decide on what exactly the control points are going to be and to try and make seance out of why they are there etc but here is what I would advise for your control point layout as in the positions of each flag etc.

In my thinking, I had invisioned doing a tug-of-war style gameplay like back with ASS v1, there were no groups of flags to cap, only cap one by one in order.

-snip pic-

Here I've made some pretty radical changes to your design. I've set this out with only ground vehicles in mind, some bits will need to be changed in order for it to work well with choppers too. What we want is all the bridges being big choke points and as such, they will be very valuable and will them and the rivers will play a very important part in the battle.

To start off with on terrain changes, added a river to the east of the map that joins onto the main river and added an important bridge of some kind crossing it. To the south of that I've added some kind of impassable terrain by land vehicles, ie, lots of steep cliffs and rocky edges, ie, a mountain or something.

This is funny.. I orginally had these features in similar places not long ago.

On other points, would really rethink your overgrowth, the current mix of fir and yellow birch looks really bad, for a start not much fir/pine actually grows in China even thou most of our chinese maps have it all over them so would try and use some other trees, the deciduous trees are quite good.

When i was deciding on overgrowth, i was looking at PR's past China maps for ideas and ended up with this. The yellow trees dont reneder well at range. This is changed.

Ye, for a start your sky texture is used on soo many maps, OGT, AoM, Bi Ming and a bunch of others... Would look into a different sky as that one is really overused, but if you are going to use it you really need to change your lighting. What tonnie is saying is not acturally that true, yes lightmaps do have an effect on the overal appearance BUT they should not change your current lighting drastically, they should really just add shadows etc if done right, with your main light settings doing the main work, as otherwise objects that are not lightmapped such as dynamic objects like vehicles rolling around the map will stick out like a saw thumb and will be a simple target for a AT guy to pick out this glowing tank amongst the dark buildings.

Right now i'm not too worried about the lighting and/or sky, it just used a present in the light menu so i could lightmap to present some decent looking images of the map.

EDIT: also some other idea might be to do this setup here:

-snip pic2-

it might look that its trying to not use that eastern part of the map but this layout actually gives that eastern part of the map a huge tactical advantage

I'm working on using the first plan you've given with a few changes, which incorporate the change of the eastern road to a degree. I've also moved the Temple to the SW corner and made that the PLA Main and put a little shack site at the old main.



Thankyou for your views Rhino, give me a few days and i'll report back.

[Madhouse]

Originally Posted by WilsonPL

Trees -> ghost train, qwai, kyonganni,
Sky -> ghost train,

imo It need some custom objects, not just default temples and chinese buildings.

Are you telling me to give up making this map because it already exists? Or are you volunteering to make these objects?

Is this object too 'default' for you?